What is the future of the well known names such as Tele Vue, Takahashi, Astro Physics, TEC, Pentax, Vixen etc ?

[John]

These brand names (and a few others perhaps) seem to have dominated the astro equipment marketplace as highly desirable and the ones to aspire to since I have been in the hobby which is well over 40 years now.

Lately I have been wondering if they will be able to maintain their position in future years. Four possible reasons spring to my mind:

1. The competitors and variety from other far eastern manufacturers seem to be inching ever closer to matching the performance of these established big names. In many cases the performance difference is either incredibly subtle or simply they are equal. Often the price of the competitors is significantly less. The quality of the competitors goods seems to be excellent as well.

2. New folks coming into the hobby seem, quite rightly, to be looking critically across the offerings available at "face value" and are less influenced by long held reputations, cachets, etc.

3. New names in the world of astro equipment are now regularly delivering innovation and improvement in their offerings. 

4. In the case of some of these long established brands, figures central to their establishment and prominence are getting towards, or have reached, retirement age. With the best will in the world, they will not be with us forever.

Is the astro equipment world and it's "movers and shakers" today very different to what it was, say, 5 years ago and I wonder where things might be 5 years from now ? 

Just musings on a rainy afternoon really but I'd be interested in other views on this 🙂

 

 

 

 

[Space Hopper]

I think looking at the 'waiting lists' for some of the scopes you refer to, in particular Astro Physics, and TEC tells its own story.

And anyone on an AP waiting list now, is still likely to be on the same list in 5 years time !!

[Bivanus]

I have a sinking feeling they are going to get quite aquinted with the two Chinese brothers , Honorable Bent and Most Honorable Dick. 

[Roy Challen]

16 minutes ago, Bivanus said:

I have a sinking feeling they are going to get quite aquinted with the two Chinese brothers , Honorable Bent and Most Honorable Dick. 

What is this supposed to mean?

[Bivanus]

Insert any of the Chinese / Taiwanese company names after Honorable - SVBony, JOC ,Synta ,GSO - many of them already providing most parts for EU and US based companies. 

Japan will hold for a bit longer , but it has been showed time and time again money talks in the end especially at planetary level.

Then they will get aquinted with the new chinese owners that would aquire them. Not tomorrow, not next year , but then again what's an year when one thinks in centuries?  

I would hope it's just my pesimism talking , so I'll eagerly await news about the new optical glass factories opened in EU or US ...but you'll excuse me for not holding my breath or anything.

[fireballxl5]

when used for imaging, the latest software tools such as BlurXterminator (and others) make the differences between high and 'low' end scopes even less distinct.

[John]

Tele Vue have been getting eyepieces made in Taiwan for quite a few years now. Some are still made in Japan as well.

The final quality control takes place in the US though. 100% of units I believe.  

 

[Paz]

I do think these brands are at risk of atrophy over time, but I think there will always be a distinct top end market driven by demand from the most committed and/or financially fortunate .

The gap in quality from the lower cost competition to those high end brands is shrinking and the gap in value for money is getting bigger. I think when the difference gets to a point where you have to go back and forth between scopes or eyepieces etc to really notice or remind yourself of the difference and the price difference is huge then it's a difference that a dwindling number of hobbyists will pay for. 

[RobertI]

It’s a really interesting question John. These small high end manufacturers all seem to have their own unique place in the market, and I think it is that together with how well the company is run, which will determine how well they survive. My thoughts on some of the names, perhaps controversial, and definitely ill founded!  :

• Astrophysics - their bedrock seem to be their observatory class high end mounts which I imagine account for most of their revenue. Their scopes seem to have developed an almost mythical status - their USP seems to be rarity, with price being almost incidental. Limited edition runs seem to be hugely popular and massively expensive. I can see their telescope business being more sustainable than their mounts business to be honest but only ever at a small scale. 
• Takahashi - I believe the majority of their revenue comes from telescopes rather than mounts - they seem to major on optical perfection, in an affordable package without bells and whistles. ‘Clinical’ precision springs to mind. If they can keep their prices in the range of the seasoned enthusiast (which will require a decent sales volume) whilst maintaining their handmade top line quality, perhaps they can survive. 
• Televue are interesting, in my view it’s the reputation of their eyepieces which is maintaining their telescopes sales, which are undoubtedly well made, but are their optics the best? They seem to like to push the “Made in the USA” theme so perhaps will always have a market with ever increasingly affluent US buyers. But the brand should survive on the strength of their eyepieces and their regular innovation. 
• I honestly don’t know where Vixen sit!

So having thought through it all, I am sure they will survive but will likely have to remain small and niche. I wait to be shot down in flames. 🙂

[NGC 1502]

Agreed, a good question with good answers already given.

Another thought…..I often see top named kit for sale at very fair prices…..and with no buyer…..the price gets dropped…..sometimes more than once.  Not so long ago this premium stuff would be snapped up by eager buyers.

I think what’s happened is the mainly older folk with memories of those premium makers have mostly already got good kit and therefore don’t buy the items they once drooled over. The younger folk some of whom won’t be swayed by the famous makers turn instead to the often excellent kit from the far east, at great low prices.

Anyone agree, and it’s fine if you don’t 😊

[John]

24 minutes ago, RobertI said:

.... I wait to be shot down in flames. 🙂

Not by me - thanks for the thoughtful input 👍

[Captain Scarlet]

As far as eyepieces go, I agree it’s all getting very tight, and I do worry for the futures of such as TeleVue on that front - their designs get directly copied.

As for telescopes, if you want a medium-to-large top-class triplet refractor for delivery right now, there aren’t many choices. The only ones I can immediately think of are Takahashi (obviously), Skywatcher Esprit, Stellarvue (I have their SVX140T, amazing). The Skywatcher Esprit 150 is £5,000, so it’s hardly undermining the market. The other obvious contender might be LZOS, but they are out of the running for other obvious reasons.

So those that can produce premium refractors are I think still in a good place.

Magnus

[RT65CB-SWL]

Interesting question/topic.

I think the downfall of one of the ‘big players’ recently… ie Meade, was they were trying to achieve the impossible by having outsourced production to different counties worldwide and things were not ‘universally’ standardised or lack of quality control and/or after sales customer service/support.

There is a YouTube video, where a ‘young’ chap in the USA🇺🇸 had [I think] an ETX-90, had a minor mishap. He ordered the replacement part. Upon trying to fit the replacement part [even though it was the same model] he found it did not fit his ETX. He then goes into expletive tirade of abuse about Meade customer service/support. As this is a family forum, I will not post/attach a link to it.

I think the likes of TeleVue will continue for sometime as they are pushing the boundaries in and of eyepiece design. That said and the release about two years ago of the of the Svbony SV215 3-8mm zoom it does give TeleVue some serious competition.

I feel that manufacturers do need diversify products, but not at the cost of quality over quantity. Some do offer exceptional after sales/customer support… some do not!

Edited 4 hours ago by RT65CB-SWL
Some grammar editing and new paragraph added at the end.

[Sunshine]

In the past fourty years Japanese and other car makers have pumped out countless highly reliable and super affordable automobiles compared to the notoriously unreliable amd horridly expensive names like 

BMW, Mercedes, Land Rover, and the list goes on. Yet, those super pricey cars which take you from point A-B just like a car costing a fifth are somehow still being pumped out with no end in sight. Why? not because the vast majority of car buyers know a thing about cars but they carry a name, a badge, an Allure. Let me be clear, I am not out to make a statement here, I am merely giving an example of how the human mind works. Even if the next telescope costs a third what mine does and performs as well, we will always seek the best.  For the same reason we still buy cars costing a hundred thousand dollars, we will strive for those scopes with badges like AP and such. Would I buy an Astrophysics Starfire? oh god yes! I wish! not because it is any better than any other, I want to know I have an AP Starfire.

Edited 15 hours ago by Sunshine

[Gfamily]

9 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

In the past fourty years Japanese and other car makers have pumped out countless highly reliable and super affordable automobiles compared to the notoriously unreliable amd horridly expensive names like 

BMW, Mercedes, Land Rover, and the list goes on. Yet, those super pricey cars which take you from point A-B just like a car costing a fifth are somehow still being pumped out with no end in sight. Why? not because the vast majority of car buyers know a thing about cars but they carry a name, a badge, they make a statement. People like making statements. Let me be clear, I am not out to make a statement here, I am merely giving an example of how the human mind works. Even if the next telescope costs a third what mine does and performs as well, mine says TAKAHASHI on the dewcap. For the same reason we still buy cars costing a hundy thousand dollars, we will strive for those names that carry the Allure.

Hmm, if that were the case, it would be the very worst justification for buying a Tak. 

[Sunshine]

3 minutes ago, Gfamily said:

Hmm, if that were the case, it would be the very worst justification for buying a Tak. 

I once thought that same thing, until I had my first, and realized there’s no going back. 

[fwm891]

At 73 I can remember drooling over all the above named manufacturers at some point during my long on and off and on astro life. I was in a position recently ( I'm an imager not an observer so that will probably make a difference to my choices!) to be able to get a 'better' refractor. Well I looked (pardon the pun), and decided that I'd be far better off buying two of the Far Eastern refractors and dual mounting them for less than the cost of a slight smaller apertured 'better makers' refractor.

That is exactly what I did and I'm now in a position of having two identical 120mm refractors collecting photons for me. PI and it's plug-ins for image processing do make a difference but the optics are really good to start with.

So. For observers with good eyes and good skies there is probably a value in the premium optic brands and models. For me sitting on the outskirts of a not too bigger city in a currently very wet UK pointless.

[Zermelo]

3 hours ago, fwm891 said:

For observers with good eyes and good skies

I think this is very relevant here. We have often mentioned the law of diminishing returns - each increment of spend usually yielding correspondingly smaller improvements in performance - whether that better kit is sourced from longstanding manufacturers or newer disrupters.
But the overall experience will still be limited by the weakest link in the optical chain. Being visual-only, I'm very aware that my own ageing eyes mean that I see even less improvement from any additional spend. I don't get any satisfaction from knowing that I've bought the very best, with astro or any other gear, so I am getting very close to "good enough for me".
And being a relatively recent recruit to the hobby, I don't have any emotional investment with the older brands. I'm sure some will remain healthy, though possibly with reduced volumes.

[Elp]

One of the issues with established brands in any sector is, if there's little equivalent competition, they can dictate the prices. Regional variations and distribution also plays a part, anyone or a service added into the supply chain adds to the prices. The world rapidly changes, and those that don't adapt will be left behind. We probably won't see it, the hobby is so niche and relatively low in supply volume that it'll take time, but you only have to look at the decent quality of far east suppliers whom supply maybe 80-90pc of the world's supply today and wonder where the premiums will stand in decades to come.

[Ratlet]

I suspect most of them will be fine.

The ones that are going to try and compete on cost are/have probably found to their cost that they can't and will end up folding or already have done.

Provided the companies remain at the top of their game people will buy them.  Takahashi didn't get to where they are by selling to people like me (building an autofocusser, working out what change would provide a 7mm spacer for the least cost) they got it by keeping their standards high.

Me Spock on the forum objectively compared a Tak to a star field 102ED and found them to be incredibly close.  But he kept the Tak.

I bake my own bread and will use whatever bread flour I can get may hands on, but it comes to doing some brioche sugar waffles or baguettes then I'll go out and find Wessex Mill flour because, in my experience it's just better.  Is it 4 times better like it is more expensive? No, Probably nobody would notice.  But I know that the loaf I get is the absolute best I can do and sometimes that is important.

Even I bought a Bader Morpheus and that costs about double what my next most expensive eyepiece cost.

[JeremyS]

Another angle to this discussion is the desire of the purchaser, so far as is possible, for their cash to go to brands that manufacture where the values of intellectual property are upheld.

[Earl]

Having owned way too many scopes over my time I did find the Taks by far the best (85, 106) but are the thousands extra worth it... debatable.

[Elp]

Something that nobody's mentioned is the socio-economic factor. If factors beyond our control spiral rapidly, buying anything astro related will be the last thing on people's minds, and suppliers will feel it. Japan has a unique almost closed market system and has weathered many worldwide financial crashes, a lot of their big companies are many decades/now centuries old, hard lifelong work is doctrined into their culture, I don't think a western company can be as fluid.

[RobertI]

9 hours ago, Sunshine said:

Would I buy an Astrophysics Starfire? oh god yes! I wish! not because it is any better than any other, I want to know I have an AP Starfire.

Me too! 

[John]

1 hour ago, Zermelo said:

I think this is very relevant here. We have often mentioned the law of diminishing returns - each increment of spend usually yielding correspondingly smaller improvements in performance - whether that better kit is sourced from longstanding manufacturers or newer disrupters.
But the overall experience will still be limited by the weakest link in the optical chain.....

Good points. The main drivers for me have been that point you make about the weakest link in the optical chain plus plain curiosity. The latter fired by the amount of discussion on the forums I frequent (SGL plus CN) that these famous brands generate. If you are very keen on a hobby then it's natural I guess that after reading so many glowing reports on certain brands that, if you get a chance, you will want to try them for yourself. 

I did have the opportunity around 10 years back to buy an AP Starfire 120 but I could not afford it really at the time and I was advised (confidentially !) that the differences I would see between the AP and my rather good Skywatcher ED120 in actual optical performance were likely to be minimal at most. Was that advice good ? - I guess I'll never know now because AP scopes are so hard to find over here at least.

When I have had the opportunities to satisfy my curiosity I have taken them and have owned some fine equipment by Tele Vue, Pentax, TMB/LZOS and Takahashi. Some has now moved on but some is still with me but I don't regret any of it in all honesty. Also being honest, I don't think any of the "premium brand" items have made me a better observer or been game changers in my enjoyment of the hobby. I would have had just as much enjoyment from using kit by Skywatcher, Meade, GSO, etc, etc. But I feel trying for myself is a journey that was worthwhile and I was lucky that I've been able to do that.

Thanks for all the comments and thoughts - very interesting indeed 👍

 

 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by John