Honest question about Takahashi

[SwiMatt]

1 hour ago, dweller25 said:

@SwiMatt

I know you did not ask this question but…..

What are you hoping to gain from a small Takahashi over your 127 Mak ?

In my opinion the 127 Mak will have better light gathering and resolution over any 60mm telescope.

The Mak does not give wide field views though but a 130mm Newtonian does as does a pair of 60mm binoculars.

I do like Taks but I would not go lower than 100mm.

Beyond the wide field views, I hope to gain transportation 🤣 I travel 3-4 times a year to places with better skies - plus I hike - and the Mak is just big enough that it's a hassle to transport far away. So I want to get good optics in a small package for all those trips and hikes. Currently I bring binoculars and they get good use, but I want better 

And yes, a newtonian would be best for many things, but my life has no space for a newtonian, logistically speaking. 

[Stu]

2 hours ago, SwiMatt said:

My current first choice for a 70-ish mm is the TS-Optics Photoline SD-APO 72 mm! 

I think that would be an excellent choice. I’ve had a couple of them, for sake of doubt this model with fpl-53 glass:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/en/telescopes-4/apochromatic-refractor-55/all-apos-und-eds-223/ts-optics-doublet-sd-apo-72-mm-f-6-fpl53-lanthanum-glass-objective-8866
 

They are nice and compact, have a good sliding dew shield so pack down nice and small, and the 2.5” rack and pinion focuser is top notch, much better than the Tak. I’ve replaced all the focusers on my Taks with Feathertouch and they are so much better than the originals; you won’t be disappointed with the TS one though, very smooth yet holds well and is dual speed.

Tak’s may be fantastic optically, but they don’t defy the laws of physics and a 72mm will show you more than a 60mm; even aperture steps of that size are noticeable. I also found travelling with the TS less hassle than my FC76DC as it is shorter and more compact; I normally split my 76DC when travelling with it although just removing the dew shield is enough to fit it in carry on baggage.

There are some images of it here.

Price wise of course there is a huge difference, even more so to the more comparable 76DC. So, unless it is a particular dream of yours to own one, then the TS is a much more pragmatic choice and will save cash for other accessories or a nice travel mount if you don’t have one. If it IS a dream of yours to own one, just going with your eyes open as to the cost of the necessary bits to get to a 2” focuser with dual speed, and the limitations of 60mm aperture. There is, of course, an easy though expensive upgrade path from the FS-60C in that you can buy the Extender Q module to make it F10 and sharpen the optics up, and/or the 76mm Objective upgrade unit which can also be used with the Extender Q module to give you an f12.75 76mm scope. Your wallet won’t thank you but it does give you plenty of options.

[dweller25]

1 hour ago, SwiMatt said:

Beyond the wide field views, I hope to gain transportation 🤣 I travel 3-4 times a year to places with better skies - plus I hike - and the Mak is just big enough that it's a hassle to transport far away. So I want to get good optics in a small package for all those trips and hikes. Currently I bring binoculars and they get good use, but I want better 

And yes, a newtonian would be best for many things, but my life has no space for a newtonian, logistically speaking. 

Understood 👍

in that case I would choose the 72mm f/6 that Stu linked to which will give better performance than a 60mm Tak, is less money and only 2.2kgs and 315mm long.

Edited July 28 by dweller25

[SwiMatt]

Good to hear about your opinions @Stu and @dweller25 (and everyone else)!

Somehow in all the discussions I saw about the Tak 60 I was always led to believe it would be as good or better than a good 70 apo (the words "it punches higher than its weight" have been thrown around). I needed to hear a clear statement about that. 

And thank you for the honesty everyone! The FS60-CB seems like an amazing instrument that I might reconsider some day, but it's probably not what I want right now  

[dweller25]

Just to reinforce your thinking please see this thread I recently posted….

 

[dweller25]

11 minutes ago, SwiMatt said:

Somehow in all the discussions I saw about the Tak 60 I was always led to believe it would be as good or better than a good 70 apo (the words "it punches higher than its weight" have been thrown around). I needed to hear a clear statement about that. 

Sadly none of the four Tak refractors I owned “punched above their weight” but they did perform to the maximum limit of what their apertures were capable of - at a high price !

[SwiMatt]

1 minute ago, dweller25 said:

Sadly none of the four Tak refractors I owned “punched above their weight” but they did perform to the maximum limit of what their apertures were capable of - at a high price !

Are you trying to start a flame in this thread? 😂

Thanks for the info @dweller25! The thread you posted is enlightening! It's always nice to hear from someone who owns these things, both positives and negatives.

[John]

34 minutes ago, SwiMatt said:

Somehow in all the discussions I saw about the Tak 60 I was always led to believe it would be as good or better than a good 70 apo (the words "it punches higher than its weight" have been thrown around). I needed to hear a clear statement about that. 

 

I think that is true of all the good quality refractors I've owned, when comparing them with other optical designs. When it comes to good quality refractors, I've found that aperture is generally the ultimate performance "pecking order" determiner although within that there are some differences in the quality of presentation which can be noticed.

 

[John]

Further to my comment above. I think the reason that folks go for Takahashi is, as has been said earlier, optical quality consistency, unit to unit, which seems to be superb with that brand. 

 

 

[Stu]

19 minutes ago, John said:

Further to my comment above. I think the reason that folks go for Takahashi is, as has been said earlier, optical quality consistency, unit to unit, which seems to be superb with that brand. 

Readily available too John, which isn’t always the case.

I do think the 100 DC/DF/DZ models are so popular as they combine top notch optics with a very lightweight and compact design. This makes them easier to mount and one of the few high end 4” scopes you can take as carry on baggage.

[Mr Spock]

What impresses me about my FC-100 is the lack of cooldown. I can take mine straight from the house and it's ready to go.

My previous scope, as good as it was, would take around 20-30 minutes to be ready. It's not a lot but doesn't qualify as grab and go.

[MalcolmM]

My usual caveat ... I'm very biased. I love Taks.

You mention travel. I've been to Europe on budget airlines with my 60CB in a small camera bag and still had room for a change of clothes 🙂 I've just been on a long distance hike in the Australian bush with the 60CB upgraded to a 76DCU. Scope, tripod, mount, diagonal and 3 eyepieces easily fit in a 25 litre Backpack. I'm about to head off to a small Pacific island with the same setup; six flights and two ferrys. So I find it very portable. 

Optically, I think it's fantastic (back to the 60CB again). Very impressive contrast on the moon and planets (my opinion, very little comparison with other scopes). When conditions allow, I take it to x140 (2.5mm eyepiece) and it presents sharp lunar/planetary images ... albeit getting a bit dim. It can do more, easily, either with the extender Q or CQ 1.7 extender. No finder is needed, just a wide field eyepiece (I use a 28mm Tak Erfle 60° which gives a 4.7° FOV). For visual, the only extras you need are diagonal, mount, Tak cradle/rings, tripod and eyepieces. If you want to use 2" eyepieces, all you need is something like the "Baader 2" ClickLock® clamp to M56i - for Takahashi". This (plus a 2" to 1.25" adapter) would also probably be needed for use with a Herschel wedge (I have the 1.25 Lunt solar wedge). I can't give you any advice on using it for astrophotography. 

Another big advantage in my opinion is it's extendability. I accept it's all expensive but you can turn it into an FS60Q (f10) for even better correction, more forgiving focusing and more power per eyepiece. The Extender-Q does something similar while keeping the scope small. The 76DCU upgrade is also a future option.

Disadvantages... except for the price, I honestly cannot think of any (my opinion ). Some people do not like the focuser. I do. Very smooth and very easy to snap to focus. I briefly had the MEF3 micro focuser on it but removed it as it made the OTA slightly trickier to fit into a small pack.

Hope this helps, 

Malcolm 

 

[dweller25]

@SwiMatt

The other thing to consider is exit pupil.

Against your 127mm Maksutov….

A 72mm scope gives around 43% reduction in light going to the eye.

A 60mm scope gives around 53% reduction.

I am too lazy to take the effect of the central obstruction of the Mak into account 😱

Edited July 28 by dweller25

[tico]

How is the CA in this 60CB? 

In the Moon/planets or terrestrial observations? 

[jgricourt]

Here is my modest experience with a Takahashi refractor. I am a dobson guy for years but one day having heard so much about this holy brand making superlative refractors everyone knows, I decided to buy one. I choose what seem to me the very best of the 100mm lineup, I mean the Takahashi FC-100DZ. Mechanically yes they have their own way of doing it, remember initially they were in the iron casting industry before diverging into refractor making in the 60s. The rack and pinion focuser is harder to move than most chinese counterparts, still this focuser is buttery smooth no issue with that and I believe it could handle heavy payloads for astrophotography if needed. The optics is great but not stellar like many Takahashi fan boys like to repeat. Stars show textbook airy disks in and out of focus, planetary image are impressive for such small package but I noticed blue fringing on the moon or on brighter stars and focusing is quite critical to avoid this residual chromatic aberration. For sure this is not a triplet nor a magic doublet made by the fairies. There is also plenty of light path to accommodate any accessory you can throw at it. The scope splits in 2 parts, the longest has 60cm in length, which is easy to fit in a medium-sized case. Overall, I am happy with the brand, also you can find cheap finder shoes for Takahashi on the Ali marketplace !

[dweller25]

Hello @jgricourt,  Tak fan boy here 🙂

I hate chromatic aberration and I see NONE in my FC-100DZ.

I can tell you with total confidence that something is not right with your setup.

Edited August 3 by dweller25

[Mr Spock]

There's absolutely no CA with my FC-100. Impossible to provoke no matter what.

[jgricourt]

I forgot to mention that I am very sensitive to slight color variation (I pass most critical color test), in that case I see color aberration but this is not obvious and I am sure that most will not see it. Like I said carefully finding the optimal focus point will help to make it disappear but this is not easy without 1:10 ratio speed. Anyway I am not surprised, I was expecting to see that in a refractor because there is none I can detect from a parabolic mirror using the right eyepiece. I can live with that, I choose a refractor also for many other reasons.

[Doctor D]

Considering how portable and lightweight the FS60CB is, I really enjoy mine. At just 60mm of aperture, the color correction is forgiving enough on most stars and I'm extremely sensitive to color. I'm often dubious about observations of the Moon mainly because of dispersion effects depending on the severity of the seeing along the limb and lateral color with eyepieces. Color alone also doesn't provide the full story on optical performance. I've used numerous refractors with slightly inferior color correction that easily outperform others with better color correction depending on their spherical correction. I hardly ever write off a refractor just based on color alone. It doesn't tell enough about the whole performance characteristic of the sample. I certainly would rather not see color given the choice, but I'm careful when selecting based on several performance characteristics. Many of the clans on cloudynights get too obsessed about color in my opinion and they don't pay enough attention to the spherical correction. I couldn't even count how many great color corrected fracs I've tested and couldn't stand their performance. Also, Takahashi is by far more consistant optically than other brands, especially considering the number of optical designs they manufacture. In my opinion for anyone to say otherwise, they probably haven't tested a diverse enough number of other brands to know better. With regard to color, even this little Nikon 65 achro was an amazing performer. 

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/565098-world-class-nikon-s65-f12-achromat-vs-takahashi-fs60cb-fluorite/

Edited August 5 by Doctor D

[John]

On 03/08/2024 at 20:52, jgricourt said:

I forgot to mention that I am very sensitive to slight color variation (I pass most critical color test), in that case I see color aberration but this is not obvious and I am sure that most will not see it.....

It might have been helpful if you had caveated your initial post with that information ?