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POW - a question

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With all the new toys I am sure it wont be too long ....

Well once you can get the QHY8pro talking reliably.... did you get anywhere with it last night ?

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seriously?

i wasnt meaning a scientific evaluation, like well done, you have a significance of 15 on that observation.

its not too much just to say why you like. eg great focus, nice colour, well framed.

Thas all I asked, and I said that before you posted. So basically you are just twisting my words

Im glad this forum isnt all scientists, we would argue all the time, over everything. Plus amateurs keep scientists honest my asking questions. Which is a great thing, only to be encouraged.

thus the example you gave above are all OK

I should keep my opinions to myself, clearly they cant be aired......

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Just a minute, we are not all blumming scientists on here, If want to comment in a limited vocabulary then I will. "Brilliant effort, superb picture, I love the colours in the image," are all terms I have used to describe images, and i make no apology for it. This is an amateurs forum, where amateurs function at all levels. I make my comments because I can appreciate the effort that has gone into the creation of them, sometimes by guys who probably have to go to work 3 hours after they finish the data capture. Even If I become the worst imager SGL has ever seen, I won't commit suicide, because I will continue to appreciate what I see, done by others, and I genuinely mean that. You are just going to have to suffer my Inane comments, unless I get banned. Lets keep this forum human, and with feet on the ground.

Ron.

EXACTLY !

I may know little about imaging but I know what I like ........ So there! :)

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I'm getting scared of this forum now! :) Dare I ever post another imaging effort of mine, wondering what sort of comments (or silence) it will attract, what the hidden innuendo in those comments (or silence!) might be, etc. etc.?

Sorry, of course I don't mean to malign the other excellent forummers here! :D I'm sure all comments are taken at their face value.

My first-ever astro image (posted on UKAI not here as it happens, but same difference), purportedly of M13, resembled a mouldy bunch of grapes. Nevertheless people were most kind in their comments ("that's a good start Pete" etc. etc.) and offered me useful tips on how to focus, which I took very much on board. I now flatter myself my globs no longer resemble bunches of grapes! (If anyone disagrees, see me outside...)

Keep on adding the comments and say what you want to say! Whatever.

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Dennis, I think the equipment used is an important factor for the judges to consider, it allows all the pics submitted to be judged on an even keel based on all relevant factors. the idea is to encourage people, not exclude them because they are made to feel inferior because their camera doesn't cost a thousand quid. Sometimes using less makes the achievement even greater. Getting an award for using a point and shoot would mean a lot more to me than if I'd used an expensive ccd.

This is exactly why I don't bother posting many, if any pics and I am sure there are others who feel the same way..

I will apologise now if I have taken anything you said the wrong way :).

The problem with these typed discussions is interpretation is everything, without seeing a persons face it is difficult to work out their intentions or the context which they intend, so people it would be a huge help if the smilies were used, its what they are for.:D

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Just thought I would add that I find that there a two types of people, ones who want/like peer approval/praise and those that don't require it. POW provides those of us ( yes I include myself ) who enjoy praise to motervate us to improve but I fully appreciate not everyone is like me :D

Jon

Hear Hear!

I count myself in the want/like peer approval/praise - definitely.

I was privileged enough to get PoW - and was very very pleased to have done so - I agree its not about the (or indeed is a) competition though, as Steve L and several others have

pointed out.

In a nutshell, I like imaging, I like sharing the pictures, I love the praise, and I like to get and share ideas on how to improve. PoW is just a nice way to recognise that.

2 All those people that write in and say "simply awesome picture" or "absolutely stunning" or "amazing, the best I've ever seen" should stop doing it. Unless, that is, it really is true. It cannot be true of every picture ever posted. When you see a barely recognisable galaxy surrounded by over sharpened haloed stars it should get the comments it deserves, not be subject to some sort of verbal orgasm of excessive praise.

I also agree with this part - constructive criticism is whats needed - not just for PoW, but for all our images - if I've posted something carp, I want to know, and learn how to improve it! The verbal orgasm part, well, nowt wrong with that either.

In summary - Dave, I think you've started a good discussion thread, and I think that many people have made some very good points (nods to narrowbandpaul - your views are not not to be aired in public, they just need a bit of clarification sometimes :) but I think that as long as the judges are prepared to spend their time on it, then its a great addition to SGL.

Cheers,

Richie

Edited by RichieJarvis

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2 All those people that write in and say "simply awesome picture" or "absolutely stunning" or "amazing, the best I've ever seen" should stop doing it. Unless, that is, it really is true. It cannot be true of every picture ever posted. When you see a barely recognisable galaxy surrounded by over sharpened haloed stars it should get the comments it deserves, not be subject to some sort of verbal orgasm of excessive praise.

I also agree with this part - constructive criticism is whats needed - not just for PoW, but for all our images - if I've posted something carp, I want to know, and learn how to improve it!

Cheers,

Richie

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Good of Dave to start another lively discussion, how does he do it?

I often use up to twenty five grandsworth of kit to get one mouldy picture. The atmospheric conditions often collaborate to deny me any kind of sharpness in the pic and I often find a complete lack of blue as it seems never to reach my camera. PS will only go so far in spite of gaining a black belt in it years ago. The fact is that every one suffers the same. Someone using a Box Brownie on a tripod could end up with a better picture if the weather gods help out.

The seeing (weather in general) and one's PS skills together are a big equaliser. A very big equaliser. That's why I say the picture is all and the kit does not have a lot to do with it. If you happen to live up a mountain you will get the advantage of the expensive gear but at sea level you can forget it.

The only reason I mentioned the sometimes over-the-top glittering comments is that it is a pet hate of mine. I also think that POW is better served by more balanced series of comments rather than everyone getting nine-and-a-half out of ten. I think POW should stay and one of the best things to ever come along to improve it is this kind of discussion.

Dennis

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(nods to narrowbandpaul - your views are not not to be aired in public, they just need a bit of clarification sometimes :)

Richie

agreed Richie.....:-)

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Hmmmm this topic is endless food for thought. If the picture is all then maybe they should be judged before post processing takes place and just allow stacking for avi's. Are we to be judged on the picture we actually take or the processing???? This is an age old debate since DSLR's hit the mainstream. Post processing can make ordinary pictures fantastic, of that there is no doubt, but the skill should be the picture in the first place not the processing. Of course I'm just being devils advocate here.:D:)

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I disagree with that statement DK - the end result is the all, not pre-processing - lets face it, without processing, DSO's would be impossibly faint, lunar and planetary shots would be blurred by the atmosphere.

Part of the fun of astro-imaging for me is the 'art' side of things - choosing exactly what colours I am going to give an image - that is personal taste, and that is what makes pictures of the same object so different from one another.

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And surely It's only the data collected that is being organized. Nothing is being added. The Rover images from Mars, and elsewhere would be painful without treatment, and boy, do I enjoy what they have achieved.

Ron.:)

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Firstly I'm not making a statement Richie, like I said endless food for thought, and playing devils advocate. You have hit the nail on the head, its Picture of the Week and not Photo of the Week. I think the word Picture encompasses more freedom to express ones view and or imagination without upsetting the purists who seem to reside in the photography forums I've visited in the past whom don't believe in post processing .

I'm actually an advocate of post processing so long as the end result gives a true representation of the original.

Sorry my tablets will kick in soon.....:D:):)

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Well i dont think i'll be taking up any of the judges time in the near future.Maybe i should migrate south every summer.:)

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Anybody see yesterdays APOD? APOD: 2009 May 12 - A Circumhorizontal Arc Over Ohio

That helps highlight that it is awareness of what is actually going on in the skies around us, and taking time to grab it. This pic could almost have been taken with a mobile phone.

I can't see why anyone, anywhere, with anything can't get a PoW. Another case was Pete Lawrence's Moon & Mercury & Pleiades picture that was APOD.

APOD: 2009 April 30 - Framed by Clouds

There were quite a few pics posted of this on this very forum taken at the SGL4 star party. Kevin Beyondvision for one grabbed a lovely shot, but I bet it would never have crossed his/their mind to send it to APOD. Maybe there's a lesson there? We all know that Pete has got fantastic kit, including a 14inch SCT, but he gets APOD with a simple camera shot.

Here's another 'unusual' one : APOD: 2009 May 6 - A Spring Sky Over Hirsau Abbey

In this age of digital photography, we are very lucky to be able to grab picture after picture without worrying about the cost of developing and processing with every click. I bet that there are loads of forum members with pictures from their cameras sat on their PC's, that could easily be a PoW or maybe even APOD. I hope that this thread (thanks again Dave for starting this 'robust debate') has served at least to encourage everyone to post their pictures.

Cheers

TJ

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I'm so glad Amanda and Ron stated what I was thinking, I also have quite enjoyed reading this thread, but I did see red at the comments about just saying an image "looks fantastic, WOW" were pointless. I feel I am unable at the present time to give any comments about quality etc. Often the comments are way above my head, I say what I feel when I see the image, but often wish I could say more, perhaps one day I will be knowledgable enough to do so. In the mean time I shall carry on giving encouragment & comments MY WAY.

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This certainly has been an interesting discussion :)

Here are my thoughts on the whole matter.

I like POW the way it is.

Although I didn't agree with Dave, I think he has every right to post his opinion, and he brought up some good points that were worthy of discussion.

As was pointed out earlier, it's very easy to get the wrong end of the stick with posts....human communication relies heavily on face to face contact....smilies are really useful for getting this across :)

Everyone likes a bit of praise, and no matter how long you've been imaging, it's good to have your efforts appreciated.

Yes, great if it's by an experienced imager who knows the intricacies of what's gone into an image, but just as good to get praise from someone who has little or no technical knowledge, but appreciates an image for its beauty.

We all are just as experienced as each other when it comes to appreciating beauty in an image, just as we are all equal when it comes to appreciating music.....you don't have to be Simon Rattle or Andre Previn to be moved by some wonderful bit of music, nor is it neccesary to read music or play an instrument.

Exactly the same applies to images....we are all expert in using our eyes.

Constructive criticism is easy to do, and we can and should all be able to learn something from others, and those of us with more experience should not just simply comment, but should share our knowledge, but there's nothing at all wrong with someone simply saying that something is great either :)

In some other forums, you can spend hours on an image, and then simply get no comments, or maybe the only ones are nitpicking....'the faint star in the upper left is the wrong shade of blue' etc

There's nothing more disheartening, and nothing guaranteed to put a newcomer off, than that sort of thing, or being scared that they may be considered 'not good enough'

Keep commenting and keep posting folks, whatever your experience....it's what keeps things alive :D

Cheers

Rob

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Rob's got it spot on as far I'm concerned!

-and many thanks guys for all your hard work keeping the forum running.

Mark

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I like Picture of the week and I like reading the judges summaries of each weeks imaging.

That said, I too, think Dave had every right to start the discussion and having met him, I know that all he said was meant in the way of promoting discussion.

What is said on the forum sometimes, somehow comes across different from how it is meant - I remember I commented on someone's image once and on re-reading it, it seemed condescending, which was not what I meant.

Dave has introduced, helped, encouraged and advised many, many members on this forum - the last thing he would do or would want to do, is offend any of them.

Lastly, I can see the value of experienced advice over general encouraging comments - but I like both, I don't really see why both types of comment can't live side by side.

Barry.

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Spot on Barry.

Don't I just know it! So easy to put a foot wrong in cyberspace when your fingers are doing the talking instead of your mouth! And the reader can't see your body-language.

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Then surely the discussion is irrelevant, and for nothing??

Daz, please don't think I'm having a 'pop' - I'm not, but given now that another POW judge has been appointed, then that would make Dave's discussion entirely relevent.

It may have been already muted that another POW judge was required, but surely this thread has brought it to the fore.

I'm nobody's enemy, but it's plain to me that Dave hasn't been around for a couple of days (least I haven't come across any answers or threads by him) - I wouldn't want Dave to think he wasn't wanted here.

Barry.

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I think the important thing to remember is that this is a DISCUSSION forum - apart from the explicitly excluded topics, surely everything is open for discussion and debate??

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Guys Dave is ok i can assure you ,he is still member here and will continue to be so , he may be quiet now . but relaxing his time fishing .

Rog :)

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