Horror Story - Satellite Scandal

[petevasey]

Hi, guys,

We all know about the huge number of satellites that have recently been launched to improve global communication.  And a lot of people have shown concern, although I reckon non astronomers don't give a d*mn - so long as they get a good mobile phone signal and fast internet, why worry!  But WE should be worried!  In February 2020 I took the first image below, M53 and NGC 5053.  When I've checked the original sub frames, there were two satellite trails out of 19  x 5 minute subs, quite faint and completely lost in processing.  QSI 683 on TMB105 (650mm fl).

Last night was clear, and although Astronomical twilight I decided to use my SharpStar 140 (fl 910mm) on the same target, just out of interest really - they fitted nicely into the field of view on my QSI683 with I hoped finer detail.  Second image below.  But it took an awful lot of work to clean it up!  Because there was a total of 54 satellite trails in 20 subs!!!  To be fair, the subs were 10 minutes each, so a greater chance of getting a trail.  Nevertheless, allowing for that, in the same elapsed time as the 2020 image run one might expect (54*19/20)/2 = 25 and a bit trails compared to 2.  OUCH!   The next two images show the worst individual frames.  Firstly a Blue sub with 6 trails, next a Luminance sub with 7 trails.  Finally all the subs combined 'summed' in MaximDL with all the trails, although some of the fainter ones don't show up clearly.

I went for 10 minute unbinned subs to go deep, but I realise after looking at the 2020 image that 5 minutes would probably have been good enough.   There would have been fewer trails in individual subs, and with twice as many subs in the time, median or sigma clip combining would have done a better job.  It took an awful lot of work to clean up the final image which when stretched still shows traces of some trails.  If we get another clear night before too much twilight I might have another go.  Or wait until next February!

Things might be better for people using many more but shorter subs with the modern CMOS cameras.  But they require very up to date powerful  computers with a lot of RAM  to process successfully.  It's only taken 3 years to get to this situation, and there are many more satellites to come. Not good 😧 😧 😧

Peter

Edited May 16, 2023 by petevasey

[knobby]

I know ! it's disgusting that we are not only light polluting the planet, we're doing it to space now too !

[carastro]

It's a disgrace.  What really gets me is who authorised the body in the USA (can't remember who is was)  to give permission to pollute the  skies for the whole world.  None of us get a say in it.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by carastro

[scotty38]

Harsh reality but taking pretty pictures versus the proposed benefits is never going to cut any ice with non astronomers never mind governments etc. I mean we can't even agree on things that folk do recognise as affecting the planet/people/universe let alone on things they cannot......

Edited May 16, 2023 by scotty38

[ApophisAstros]

Perhaps we should start glueing ourtselves to Rockets , OH WAIT no that woudn`t be a great idea....

Roger

[DaveS]

It's not just us taking pretty pictures, the professional astronomers are up in arms too, in fact a real concern is missing an incoming asteroid because of the Musk-rat's junk.

[SamAndrew]

Meh it's an inconvenience, but the tools for removing the trails are better than ever; we just need someone to improve the stacking programs to identify the trails and ignore them more intelligently. 

Considering how many other industries have much greater damaging impact on the Earth, I don't think this issue will get much traction.

Cloud cover and light pollution are much bigger barriers for my imaging.

[saac]

21 minutes ago, SamAndrew said:

Meh it's an inconvenience, but the tools for removing the trails are better than ever; we just need someone to improve the stacking programs to identify the trails and ignore them more intelligently. 

Considering how many other industries have much greater damaging impact on the Earth, I don't think this issue will get much traction.

Cloud cover and light pollution are much bigger barriers for my imaging.

How long will it take before we have an AI astro app that has the database of all overflights which will mean they can automatically be avoided at point of capture. Come on ZWO you heard it here first

Jim 

Edited May 16, 2023 by saac

[petevasey]

Even though clever processing software can ease our problems, unfortunately, the huge increase of satellites, even though their orbits are accurately known, considerably increases the probablilty of collisions with other orbiting objects, some of which are no longer operational and possibly many are not accurately plotted.  It's not so much the immediate damage, but the knock on effect.  Shades of 'Gravity'!

Cheers,

Peter

[ollypenrice]

I give you fair warning: the term 'pretty pictures' with regard to astrophotography lights my blue touch paper. I haven't spent the last fifteen years of my life trying to take pretty pictures. So, deep breath and move on...

5 hours ago, petevasey said:

Even though clever processing software can ease our problems, unfortunately, the huge increase of satellites, even though their orbits are accurately known, considerably increases the probablilty of collisions with other orbiting objects, some of which are no longer operational and possibly many are not accurately plotted.  It's not so much the immediate damage, but the knock on effect.  Shades of 'Gravity'!

Cheers,

Peter

I think you're right to be concerned about the 'debris cascade' effect, Peter but I think the genius types behind software and the short-sub CMOS revolution will preserve astrophotography.  (I was semi-railroaded into CMOS by circumstance but, woo-hoo, it is glorious!

Olly

[ONIKKINEN]

8 hours ago, SamAndrew said:

Meh it's an inconvenience, but the tools for removing the trails are better than ever; we just need someone to improve the stacking programs to identify the trails and ignore them more intelligently. 

Considering how many other industries have much greater damaging impact on the Earth, I don't think this issue will get much traction.

Cloud cover and light pollution are much bigger barriers for my imaging.

Almost perfect tools already exist for the job. The generalized studentized extreme deviate test method (whoever came up with the name needs to never name anything again) is excellent at outlier removal from large stacks. Rejects very little actual signal too.

And these tools will only get better! So i fully agree, this is not the hill to die on in terms of issues with imaging.

Edited May 16, 2023 by ONIKKINEN

[Mr Spock]

That's horrible. I know from visual observing how many pass through my very narrow field of view - it's shocking.

But, just be grateful the mothership has a cloaking device. That would really light the sky up 

[knobby]

8 hours ago, saac said:

How long will it take before we have an AI astro app that has the database of all overflights which will mean they can automatically be avoided at point of capture. Come on ZWO you heard it here first

Jim 

More likely Russel will develop 'satXterminater' but only for Pixinsight 😂

[ONIKKINEN]

Just for fun, here is my worst reject-high image from about 35 hours on M81/82 imaged between Dec 22- March 23.

 

[petevasey]

Yep, Onikkinen, another horror story!  Thank you.  That's from 35 hours imaging, mine was only 3 hours!! 

So here's another point to ponder.  The field of view of my image (not worrying about it being a section of a spherical surface - too small to matter) is 0.963 square degrees.  18 x 13.5 mm chip at 910 mm focal length.  The surface area of the celestial sphere is 41253 square degrees.  So my image only encompasses 1/42838  of the entire sky.  Yet in 3 hours, 45 objects passed across that tiny area.  There's a huge amount of stuff up there.

Thanks for all the interest, guys.  Incidentally did you like my image?

Cheers,

Peter.

Edited May 17, 2023 by petevasey

[Fegato]

Might have posted this pixel rejection image before, but here's my worst - shorter timescale (about 1 hour), wider field (approx 3 x 2). Stretched a lot....  image was Sh2-150 in Cepheus, but not very good - perhaps the pixel rejection was so excessive it ruined the SNR.

 

 

[gorann]

With my CMOS cameras I ususally get at least 100 subs in a night and using Linear Fit Clipping in PI I never see any satellite trails in the final stacked image even after extreme stretching.

[tomato]

I agree, remove them in processing, if I had software that delayed taking an image until it was clear of satellites, it would give me about three subs per session.

Olly, most folks outside of the Astro community I show my images to do not describe them as pretty. With small galaxies, the response is “what am I supposed to be looking at?” and nebulae are a “colourful mess”.

I don’t think I would be much good at outreach.

[scotty38]

Well I suppose I'm to blame and should have put my term in quotes. My intention was to suggest a view taken from outside the hobby as to its relevance versus "humanity saving" projects. Another tongue in cheek comment though 🙂

[ollypenrice]

The satellite situation is like the plastic situation. We are drowning in plastic, yet still we churn it out.

Olly

[petevasey]

11 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

The satellite situation is like the plastic situation. We are drowning in plastic, yet still we churn it out.

Olly

Hi, Olly,

Yes the human race is probably the worst caretaker ever!  And the way we're going, likely to have the shortest tenure in the lifetime of our planet.  With the way we fight each other instead of finding peaceful solutions and working together for the good of all, things aren't looking good 😧  I wonder if Putin and his ilk have ever read 'Pale blue dot'?

Cheers,

Peter

Edited May 17, 2023 by petevasey
Corrected grammar

[Paul M]

I'm in the group that just wonders "why"?

There is, surely, over supply of global Internet already?

What we see here is bandwagon jumping and the fight for market share.

We are in an area of the country where "6G broadband" is being rolled out. It's government money behind it, for some reason. There is already oversupply of broadband here. We currently have Fiber to Cabinet. We could have fiber to the house if we wanted.

But suddenly there were hundreds of new telegraph poles being erected. They run down our street, all over the place. Hundreds of them. So on investigation found that a new system of broadband is being installed. The poles carry fiber cables to transmission masts that then beam internet to subscribers via a small active antenna on their roof or chimney.

We have a similar system at our Luxury Cumbrian Villa, but it's rural, no other infrastructure.

The masts for this new 6G are hideous. Luckily we don't have one down our street, just the fiber cable zigzagging around the existing phone lines and poles. The system is designed to be fully independent of Openreach infrastructure. The reviews of the product from early adopters are pants.

The masts are a dystopian vision. They were erected under a "Statutory Notice". No planning and no public consultation.

Not sure what's the driver, it's costing millions of pounds. But you might actually need your foil hats this time! 

Here is our neatest one. Give me satellite trails any day! 

[Scott Badger]

Another factor to consider is that the collective reflection from the 100,000 plus satellites planned, and their debris, will mean no more bortle 1 sites. Anywhere.

Cheers,

Scott

[Ouroboros]

Look on the positive side. Satellite suppliers like Musk can have a nice little side-line in satellites carrying space telescopes for professional and amateur astronomers.  “You too can get above the space junk.  Only $#### per imaging hour.” 

[SamAndrew]

3 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

Look on the positive side. Satellite suppliers like Musk can have a nice little side-line in satellites carrying space telescopes for professional and amateur astronomers.  “You too can get above the space junk.  Only $#### per imaging hour.” 

You joke, I don't think it will be long before we see space rent-a-scopes appearing, the cost to put a satellite into space and the cost of a top armature setup have probably converged already. Would be an interesting Kickstarter project.