Uncooled vs cooled (now vs Christmas) need persuading.

[SmokeyJoe]

First point is I am on a very tight budget. 

After a couple of years mucking about with an old 450d and learning the ropes the time has come to move on to a dedicated astro cam. 

After much research I have settled on the ASI 533 as the best fit for both of my scopes (Ed80 ds Pro and 200p).   I'm using the asiair so am stuck with ZWO camera's. 

I have just about got enough saved up for the uncooled version.  It's going to be Christmas before I can afford the pro. 

So darks are a problem with an uncooled camera but what else. 

Do I wait or let my impatience win and buy the uncooled camera. 

[PeterCPC]

Cooled cameras are more sensitive and reduce noise. Also easier to match up darks etc due to exact temperature.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I have three variants of the ASI183: an ASI183MC (non-cooled), which I now only use for planetary and lunar imaging, an ASI183MC-Pro, which I now use for DSO OSC work, and an ASI183MM-Pro for narrowband/luminance shooting. The latter two are way better for DSO work, not just for reducing noise, but in particular due to the fact that I can simply always shoot at the same temperature of the chip, allowing me to use the same darks every time, or shoot darks at any time I like, rather than at the start or end of each imaging session, which I had to do with the ASI183MC. That doesn't mean the non-cooled camera is bad, given the results I was getting on the Meade SN-6 6" F/5 Schmidt-Newton. The M101 below represents just over 4 hours of data from a Bortle 4-5 site.

[knobby]

You might be ok without darks on the 533, have a quick google ... try dithering (on the capture not over the decision 🙂 )

On the other hand cooling should help with noise.

Have you considered a used camera ?

Or, slightly smaller pixels but have you considered this ...

 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by knobby
Added link

[SmokeyJoe]

30 minutes ago, PeterCPC said:

Cooled cameras are more sensitive and reduce noise. Also easier to match up darks etc due to exact temperature.

Thanks Peter, just wondering how much practical difference there was given ZWOs low noise claims with the 533.

[SmokeyJoe]

Thanks Michael, I'm aware of the darks pros/cons, just wondering about noise etc on the uncooled 533, nice illustration of what can be achieved uncooled. 

Knobby, had a Google and most of the stuff out there is about the pro version.  I'll have another look regarding dithering. 

I have considered a used camera but unwilling to spend what little cash I have on something that could go horribly wrong. 

[SamAndrew]

I remember it was the warm summer nights when the lack of cooling used to be a big problem with a DSLR (sensor temp at over 30 degrees) so I imagine it's the same for the modern CMOS cameras, it'll be fine in winter, but probably be more noticeable in summer. We don't get much dark in the summer so not a big portion of time to worry about it.

[Elp]

The major factor of your final results will be how good your post processing skills are. I use cooled, uncooled and dslr. All have noise, yes the cooled is slightly "cleaner" but you'll still have a noisy image if you don't use a noise reduction algorithm at post processing or have a poor signal to noise ratio in the final stack. The cooled is better for convenience as after the session whilst still on the scope you only need to shoot flats, dark flats can be done after and darks you'll build a library you can use over and over again.

[DaveS]

I would hold out for a cooled camera, as it will make your calibration frames much better and easier to apply.

But it's a pity that you became ensnared by the ZWO octopus otherwise I would have suggested a S/H CCD camera which can be had for peanuts now. I reason why I would never even consider an ASIair.

[tomato]

Just to make your decision more complicated, you could retro fit a temp controlled Peltier cooler and fan to the outside of your uncooled camera. It won’t get the sensor down to sub zero temperatures but it will stabilise the temperature hence giving you more consistent calibration frames. This has worked well on ASI 178 cameras that I use for small galaxy imaging. Down side is applying thermo conductive paste to your camera body will probably invalidate the warranty, but it’s ~£30 as opposed to £300 extra for the ZWO cooled version.

[Dark Raven]

There is also a middle path of achieving 10´C below ambient without voiding your warranty. Using smartphone cooler for your AP planetary camera will newer get you to the levels of dedicated cooled cameras but it certainly helps.
If you at all have option to go for the cooled camera go for it, if not please se below my example and thread with tests here on SGL forum.

 

 

[SmokeyJoe]

Thanks all for your helpful replies, I did look at the 585 Knobby but it gives me an imaging scale of 0. 79 compared to 1.03 for the 533 (although this improves to 0.9 with a focal reducer). Post processing skills are OK I think (I have a partly Photoshop based degree) but all in the eye of the beholder etc.  Don't really want to start mucking about with the hardware as one day I hope to sell it and head down the mono route. 

Guess I was looking for an excuse to buy my new toy now rather than in 8 months. 

[carastro]

I would hold on for a cooled camera, it will make so much difference to the noise levels.  Patience is not only a virtue, but a reward.

Carole 

[Robert Hayes]

I use a player one saturn m. Uncooled. These chips run with very low noise which calibrate out using flats and dark flats. That's should be all you need. Zero amp glow. They are a great sensor the imx533. I also have the zwo 533 mc pro. For me the mono is the one I'm using the most.  Hope this help but it's my tuppence with. Good luck and clear skies.

[Shimrod]

1 hour ago, SmokeyJoe said:

Thanks all for your helpful replies, I did look at the 585 Knobby but it gives me an imaging scale of 0. 79 compared to 1.03 for the 533 (although this improves to 0.9 with a focal reducer). Post processing skills are OK I think (I have a partly Photoshop based degree) but all in the eye of the beholder etc.  Don't really want to start mucking about with the hardware as one day I hope to sell it and head down the mono route. 

Guess I was looking for an excuse to buy my new toy now rather than in 8 months. 

With a practical hat on, how often will you get out imaging as we head into the summer months. With the constraints of work and a lack of a dark sky until late, my telescope goes away and doesn't come out again until September. If you buy now, are you really going to get much use out of the camera and will you regret the early purchase come autumn? It also gives you time to keep an eye out for any customer returns on the FLO website which will give you the benefit of buying at a small discount but with the assurance of a warranty.

[Enceladus Dan]

I recently (december)  bought the asi533mc uncooled, so far I've only managed to test it quick on a ser file of a full moon. Between the clouds, work and full moon I can't seem to get a break. 

My situation was like yours, uncooled now or wait longer, my choice was down to a video on the uncooled 585mc having great results and on Paper the 533mc should be similar. I compared the dark current between 533mc and 294mc, I saw that the 533 will have similar dark current at 10c to the 294mc at -15c. 

My decision was put down to it being my first dedicated astro cam coming from a 600D so cooled or uncooled will both be a step up, I could get used to the 533mc and when confident look to my next one being bigger than a 1" sensor and possibly mono too. The £300 saving now can make a start towards a goto mount. As well as my trusty eq5 has been, I'm liking the idea of remote goto making things easier. 

Hopefully soon I can have some images to share from my uncooled 533mc. 

Clear skies

Danny

[Clarkey]

Personally, I would go for the cooled camera. It just makes everything easier and as temperatures increase there is a difference. If you are on a budget, consider second hand. There are plenty of second hand camera's for sale and although there is a small risk, it is probably worth it.

[SmokeyJoe]

I think considering everything that has been said and the fact that we are heading into summer I shall wait a get the cooled camera, spend the next few months improving my techniques.  Thanks all for your advice. 

[Enceladus Dan]

Depending on how tomorrow's skies pan out for me I might have an example image for you. 

I'm hoping that block of clouds either come early or late, its not great but the best opertunity I've had in a long time. 

Clear skies

Danny

[SmokeyJoe]

On 18/04/2023 at 19:49, Enceladus Dan said:

Depending on how tomorrow's skies pan out for me I might have an example image for you

Thanks Danny but I had a massive disaster last week when I dropped my tablet and broke the screen. 😧

Just spent a large chunk of my savings on a new tablet so give it six months or so and I might be back in the position to buy a camera.😭

 

[Elp]

These are from uncooled cameras "not designed" for DSO, I'm usually using one in tandem with my 183 to speed up imaging, for these two I was just testing out different configs:

Edited April 24, 2023 by Elp

[AstroMuni]

On 14/04/2023 at 08:25, SmokeyJoe said:

After much research I have settled on the ASI 533 as the best fit for both of my scopes (Ed80 ds Pro and 200p).   I'm using the asiair so am stuck with ZWO camera's.

I have the ASI533mc Pro and I havent found the need for darks (yet) as there is no amp glow. Ref cooling, the noise due to dark curent is shown in their manual. In winter we are anyway talking about temperatures below 15deg so hardly any dark current.

Cooling is a nice to have (not a need to have) feature when your budget is stretched, IMO. So either opt for a second hand cooled version (like I did) or wait until Christmas 🙂

Edited April 24, 2023 by AstroMuni

[Enceladus Dan]

I did manage to get out on the 19th, but I too had a tablet issue. I stopped using my gaming laptop and now have a mini pc and remote desktop from my tablet. As my west view is blocked I only every image to the east, on the 19th I decided to try and get M101 after the meridian at 1am when the street lights go out. Issue was I had no idea how to force calibration on phd2 to corect the guding after the meridian without a keyboard to shift click. (Lesson learned and screenshot on my phone from the manual now) 

So after getting frustrated I gave up and just admired the long missed veiw of the stars. After a sleep, I thought to myself why didn't I close phd2 down and open again. 

The evil light that stops me imaging before 1am. Wish they would turn them out at 2200. 

With my lessons learned on phd2, hopefully next clear night I'll grab some uncooled images. 

Clear skies

Danny. 

[ollypenrice]

On 15/04/2023 at 18:15, SmokeyJoe said:

I think considering everything that has been said and the fact that we are heading into summer I shall wait a get the cooled camera, spend the next few months improving my techniques.  Thanks all for your advice. 

Good decision.

Olly