What does nothing look like?

[VirgoCluster25]

So i have had a debate with a friend on what nothing looks like. One side of the arguement was that it was linked to space being that if we had absolutly nothing. No atmosphere. Litterally nothing it would be black since in space when there is a space with nothing there it would be black. But also the universe is expanding into nothing of which we looked into blind people who see everything blury and then some see absolutly nothing which could be there eyesight is just so blury that they can only see a single colour which could be white. And both black and white are not colours but tints or shades. But the other side of the arguement was that nothing is nothing and thats that. And nothing doesnt look like anything. What do you guys think?

[vlaiv]

I have very philosophical take on nothing.

I equate it with non-existence, and if we start to build an imaginary universe from conceptual building blocks, non-existence is rather easy to define - it is universe consisting out of single entity.

No relationships, that entity not having any properties except being itself.

That is nothingness - or lack of existence (I know this is a hard pill to swallow because if "there is something there" - we think of existence, but in reality we need at least two entities before we can "declare" existence, and further more, existence is actually at least two entities and at least one relationship - but that is given, as soon as we have two entities - we have relationship between them - as they both "are").

Makes sense? So in my view, nothing is same as non-existence, universe with singular entity defines it and no it does not have colour and can't be seen, smelled, heard and so on ...

Btw, welcome to SGL

 

[VirgoCluster25]

Thank you but black is not a colour.. And if there is nothing in my hand we see the colours past the nothing ness. So nothing is colour technacly. For we see the colour past nothing. Nothing cant be seen right? If nothing is in my hand you will still see nothing. What if vision was light a painting? We dont see objects but we do see the colour of the object. Yet if there is no drawing on the paper it would be white.  Its a very confusing topic.

 

[vlaiv]

2 minutes ago, VirgoCluster25 said:

Thank you but black is not a colour.. And if there is nothing in my hand we see the colours past the nothing ness. So nothing is colour technacly. For we see the colour past nothing. Nothing cant be seen right? If nothing is in my hand you will still see nothing. What if vision was light a painting? We dont see objects but we do see the colour of the object. Yet if there is no drawing on the paper it would be white.  Its a very confusing topic.

 

Colour is technically a psychological sensation. It is not physical thing - much like warmth or sound.

There are physical corresponding stimuli that produce these sensations.

Electromagnetic radiation in visible part of spectrum creates visual sensation (colour / brightness / visual image).

Pressure waves in air cause sound sensation.

Mechanical vibration of atoms / molecules causes warmth sensation.

We can measure all these physical properties without the need for our senses to tell us its there, and our senses are not the most reliable instrument. We can hear things when nothing is to be heard (quite dangerous thing - people hearing voices often end up hospitalized), we can "see" things and colors that do not exist - we can feel the same temperature as both cold and warm (depending on our surroundings or previous state of our body - keep one hand in hot water and other in cold and touch the same object - it will feel at different temperature depending on which hand you "sense").

Nothingness can't be associated with either psychological sensation or physical phenomena. It can't be measured. It is purely philosophical concept - it does not exist in nature.

Even completely "empty" patch of space, contains multitude of things - it contains space-time with its curvature, it contains quantum fields - and on top of that, it contains random fluctuations in those quantum fields - pairs of particle/antiparticle popping in and out of existence. Quite a busy place for "nothing" or "empty" space.

Nothingness is much like infinity - a concept we can discuss without actual physical phenomenon.

[andrew s]

Nothing by definition doesn't look like anything. 

Regards Andrew 

[ollypenrice]

My thoughts...

Whether or we call black a colour depends on the context of the conversation. In certain technical contexts it is helpful to call it a shade but in most cases it is more helpful to call it a colour. My car is black. It doesn't matter what we call it, we know what it looks like. In a line of ten cars of different colours, if I tell you mine is the black one, you will know which it is.

You say, 'But also the universe is expanding into nothing.'  This is not at all what the Big Bang theory says. It is not expanding into nothing: all that there is is expanding. If it were expanding into something we chose to call 'nothing,'  that something would be part of the universe and therefore inside it.

In order to 'look like something' an object must send light in our direction, either by emitting it or by reflecting it. If it does either, it is not nothing! 

'Nothing' does not exist in nature. Even a perfect vacuum contains a minimum energy level which will cause particles to appear and annihilate at any time. (There's a good book on nothing by John Barrow. The Book of Nothing.  It's worth reading.)

If we look in a direction from which not enough light comes to stimulate the retina, we see black.

Conclusion: when we look in the direction of nature's closest approximation to nothing we will see black, so 'nothing' looks black. However, that does not mean 'nothing' is black. It isn't black because it doesn't exist - by definition. 

Olly

[saac]

Here is my take on it:

 

 

Jim 

[vlaiv]

3 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

If we look in a direction from which not enough light comes to stimulate the retina, we see black.

This is actually not true - we see some sort of gray shade and not black.

There is name to this effect that I can't remember, but I will look it up.

Ah, here it is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eigengrau

 

[Paul M]

3 hours ago, saac said:

Here is my take on it:

 

 

Jim 

No! You ruined it by accepting it as a concept.  Surely "nothing" can't be defined, as a definition gives it attributes?

I was keeping out of it, as an example of real nothingness. And I've ruined it too!

[saac]

9 minutes ago, Paul M said:

No! You ruined it by accepting it as a concept.  Surely "nothing" can't be defined, as a definition gives it attributes?

I was keeping out of it, as an example of real nothingness. And I've ruined it too!

Damn it we "thunk" it into existence.  

Jim 

[mikeDnight]

To understand what nothing looks like, here's a pic of my bank balance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

☺

Edited April 10, 2023 by mikeDnight

[vlaiv]

4 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

To understand what nothing looks like, here's a pic of my bank balance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

☺

Now I get it - it is higher level algebra

Number divided with zero is infinity

Bank balance minus Takahashi scopes is nothing

[bingevader]

I know this is diverging slightly from the nothingness, but I thought black wasn't a colour, but an absence of colour.

White being a mixture of all colours that we can split with a prism.

If you go down a mine and turn all the lights off, there's no shades of grey, just black.

[vlaiv]

2 minutes ago, bingevader said:

I know this is diverging slightly from the nothingness, but I thought black wasn't a colour, but an absence of colour.

White being a mixture of all colours that we can split with a prism.

If you go down a mine and turn all the lights off, there's no shades of grey, just black.

It turns out that things are not that simple.

Colours like black and white (and red, purple, green, yellow and all other) - are product of our mind.

You don't need all wavelengths of light to induce sensation of white - and interesting thing is - you won't see the same mix of wavelength as being white always. There is no universal white as far as spectrum goes - there is only "white adaptation" of our brains - or mix of wavelengths that our brain adopts as being white at that particular time.

Similarly - black is not absence of light - it is thing of contrast. You need to have something that is white in order to perceive something as black. If you have no reference (in absence of all light) - most people "see" sort of dark gray (see link I provided few posts up).

Then there are "impossible" colours - colours people report seeing that are physically impossible to get with light - yet they are regularly reported and induced in peoples minds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_color

 

[ollypenrice]

45 minutes ago, bingevader said:

I know this is diverging slightly from the nothingness, but I thought black wasn't a colour, but an absence of colour.

White being a mixture of all colours that we can split with a prism.

If you go down a mine and turn all the lights off, there's no shades of grey, just black.

No, I'm not having this. To quote Wittgenstein (and give my point a bit of gravitas ) language is public and if I asked you, or anyone else looking at my car, what colour it was you would say black. You would not say, 'It has no colour, it manifests the absence of colour.'  Come on now, admit it! 

Olly

[Paul M]

So as we sit here, giggling at this silliness, who will be first to be asked by their significant other; "what are you laughing at?"

"'Oh, nothing.." ! 😅

[DaveS]

"Nothing shall come of nothing"

[DaveS]

 

[saac]

1 hour ago, vlaiv said:

It turns out that things are not that simple.

Colours like black and white (and red, purple, green, yellow and all other) - are product of our mind.

You don't need all wavelengths of light to induce sensation of white - and interesting thing is - you won't see the same mix of wavelength as being white always. There is no universal white as far as spectrum goes - there is only "white adaptation" of our brains - or mix of wavelengths that our brain adopts as being white at that particular time.

Similarly - black is not absence of light - it is thing of contrast. You need to have something that is white in order to perceive something as black. If you have no reference (in absence of all light) - most people "see" sort of dark gray (see link I provided few posts up).

Then there are "impossible" colours - colours people report seeing that are physically impossible to get with light - yet they are regularly reported and induced in peoples minds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_color

 

A good example of this is a movie projector or TV  - think about it, especially for a projector which is casting a beam of light, exactly how can it cause black to appear on the screen!  As per vlaiv's explanation above it relies on contrast.  That all said, I think I'm comfortable with black also being considered an absence of reflected light. While noting with interest vlaiv's retinal response info I'm convinced I see black not grey when I close my eyes. 

Jim 

[saac]

I don't know if this going too off topic but has anybody experienced being in a place, cellar or room, which is totally light tight and dark? I have found the experience just a little unsettling - eyes wide open yet unable to see my hands held in front of my face.  I guess the brain really does not like  what it does not understand. 

Jim 

Edited April 10, 2023 by saac

[saac]

25 minutes ago, DaveS said:

"Nothing shall come of nothing"

Or will it, if we wait long enough !

Jim 

 

[Mr Spock]

Nothingness is the absence of existence.

[Ouroboros]

2 minutes ago, Mr Spock said:

Nothingness is the absence of existence.

Now that really is something! 

[Franklin]

Nothingness is like time at the eyepiece under UK skies.

[vlaiv]

5 minutes ago, Franklin said:

Nothingness is like time at the eyepiece under UK skies.

Well, that is true - one can't talk about nothing without a good Haiku