Test and Comparison: Starfield 102mm F7 ED Doublet v Takahashi FC-100 DF f7.4 Doublet (Fluorite)

[MalcolmM]

Excellent and fair comparison @Mr Spock, if only you had done it two years ago you might have saved me a small fortune 😀 

That being said, now that I have an extended family of Taks, I wouldn't swap them for anything! For me, they have a soul, a little je ne sais quoi and I enjoy looking at them almost as much as through them! They feel to me like there is a 'Whole Lotta Love' goes into each and every one of them during their manufacture.

Mind you, maybe that says more about me than about Takahashi scopes 😀

Malcolm 

[John]

19 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

We are all looking for that last ounce of performance from what we have.

 

Well at least the scope optics are higher up Richard Suiters "wobbly stack" of factors that impact the view than eyepieces:

1)    Aperture

2)    Seeing (not transparency, but the level of atmospheric disturbance which distorts the image moment to moment)

3)    Quality of the primary optics

4)    Central obstruction size

5)    Alignment of the optics

6)    The diagonal (mirrors scatter much more than lenses)

7)    The ability of the focuser to deliver critical fine focus

8)    The eyepiece

9)    The skill and fatigue level of the observer and their eyes

[Stu]

1 hour ago, F15Rules said:

..and there you have it.

Despite everything you have reported, you have sold the Starfield and kept the Tak🤔

Dave

So long as there is no eulogising, all will be well 😉

[JeremyS]

2 hours ago, F15Rules said:

..and there you have it.

Despite everything you have reported, you have sold the Starfield and kept the Tak🤔

Dave

That’s generally the way Takitis starts….

[cajen2]

Yes, a long and slippery slope, Michael, which I managed to avoid.... 🤣

[JeremyS]

3 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

Yes, a long and slippery slope, Michael, which I managed to avoid.... 🤣

It think Michael’s up to 2 Taks already. Passed the point of no return. Perhaps we should have a sweepstake on his next Tak….

[cajen2]

3 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

It think Michael’s up to 2 Taks already. Passed the point of no return. Perhaps we should have a sweepstake on his next Tak….

🤣🤣🤣 Then there's all the accessories which Takahashi cunningly make necessary....

[Highburymark]

Excellent summary, and tbh it didn’t surprise me. The slight advantage offered by the DF in the report may become clearer on the planets at high powers, or with stringent star testing. But maybe not. The Tak should pull ahead with its slower focal ratio of F/7.4 v F/7, so that makes the cheaper scope’s performance even more impressive. 
Back in the 1990s, I worked as a journalist covering the motor industry - though quite why, I’m not sure, as I had no particular interest in cars. When I started, I remember doing a story on how far BMW and Mercedes were ahead of the mainstream pack - 3-series v Ford Sierra etc. By the time I stopped covering the industry, the gap had narrowed drastically. The BMW 3-Series  still had rear wheel drive as its USP (bit like Tak with fluorite), but the new generation of Ford Mondeos etc were light years ahead of their predecessors, and very close to the Germans in quality and engineering. 
It’s fantastic that such a quality package is available today at Starfield prices. Yet I doubt that Takahashi is particularly concerned. They may be two and a half times the price of the Chinese brands, but it doesn’t seem to be hitting their sales.

[JeremyS]

1 minute ago, cajen2 said:

🤣🤣🤣 Then there's all the accessories which Takahashi cunningly make necessary....

Yup. Michael has bitten that bullet too, it seems. 
in fact faster than I did 😊

[cajen2]

There's always the lure of the exclusive high end..... it's how the likes of Linn, Naim and Rolls Royce still sell products...

Basically, bragging rights! 😆😆

[JeremyS]

3 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

There's always the lure of the exclusive high end..... it's how the likes of Linn, Naim and Rolls Royce still sell products...

Basically, bragging rights! 😆😆

And supporting independent, pioneering and artisanal manufacturers 👍🏻

[mikeDnight]

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Edited April 5, 2023 by mikeDnight

[cajen2]

"Pioneering"? With their focusers? 😄😄😄

[mikeDnight]

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Edited April 5, 2023 by mikeDnight

[Stu]

35 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

 I'm determined to behave, but some are more mischievous...

I would like to say while I have your attention Stu, just how grateful I am that you suggested I buy a Maxbright II binoviewer while at the Practical Astronomy Show.  I did, with a little help from Saganite, F15Rules, and Telescope40 who helped me open my wallet. It's definitely better than my old revelation binoviewer, which was still pretty good and kept me happy for 12 years. But this thread got me thinking just how much Mr Spock (Michael) would appreciate a Maxbright to enhance his Tak DF to the hypersuperlaitive level.  Sorry!

I tried Mike, I really tried!

Very glad that you acquired some MBIIs and that they are proving to be an improvement. I’ve been very impressed with mine I must say. A second pair is not impossible, if only they were in stock!

Perhaps a review against your Revelations before you sell them… ?

[John]

58 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

...Basically, bragging rights! 😆😆

But not here though, surely ? 

 

[mikeDnight]

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Edited April 5, 2023 by mikeDnight

[Stu]

I personally am not a fan of Tak focusers. Perhaps because I had a couple which had been abused on previous used scopes. The DC focuser is not as robust as the DF I believe, but I bought the DC because it was cheaper and I knew I was going to fit an FT to it.

Prices have certainly increased, pretty sure I paid less than £2k including rings, but can’t remember. I know that I compared it with a decent 106mm f6.5 Fpl-53 triplet and it was significantly better visually, especially on planets.

[JeremyS]

1 hour ago, cajen2 said:

"Pioneering"? With their focusers? 😄😄😄

That was the “Artisanal “ comment

[F15Rules]

17 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

They were definitely pioneers of Fluorite optics, which even today are "many orders of magnitude over any ED glass".  Tak's claim not mine. I've no idea what that  means in the real world, but it sounds impressive. As far as their focusers go, other than their limited travel and obsession with extension tubes, I've never really had much of an issue with them, but I'm only a visual observer.

There is nothing wrong with Tak stock focusers. They may occasionally need some slight fettling and there are plenty of useful tips and info online to assist in getting the best from them.

The MEF3 microfocuser is also excellent. I have one, and after careful adjustment it works smoothly and seamlessly with no "bounce" or hesitation.

It's just like getting perfect balance with an eq mount..attention to detail to achieve correct fit and adjustment always pays off.

And if a piece of engineered kit is regularly used, especially with modern heavy focuser loads like large 2" diagonals, eyepieces and binoviewers etc, it's not surprising that they may need occasional re-adjustment - just as a car needs servicing.

It's very similar to Vixen focusers. They too are excellent when properly adjusted.

Dave

[JeremyS]

1 hour ago, Highburymark said:

Excellent summary, and tbh it didn’t surprise me. The slight advantage offered by the DF in the report may become clearer on the planets at high powers, or with stringent star testing. But maybe not. The Tak should pull ahead with its slower focal ratio of F/7.4 v F/7, so that makes the cheaper scope’s performance even more impressive. 
Back in the 1990s, I worked as a journalist covering the motor industry - though quite why, I’m not sure, as I had no particular interest in cars. When I started, I remember doing a story on how far BMW and Mercedes were ahead of the mainstream pack - 3-series v Ford Sierra etc. By the time I stopped covering the industry, the gap had narrowed drastically. The BMW 3-Series  still had rear wheel drive as its USP (bit like Tak with fluorite), but the new generation of Ford Mondeos etc were light years ahead of their predecessors, and very close to the Germans in quality and engineering. 
It’s fantastic that such a quality package is available today at Starfield prices. Yet I doubt that Takahashi is particularly concerned. They may be two and a half times the price of the Chinese brands, but it doesn’t seem to be hitting their sales.

Id never thought of the Starfield as the Mondeo of the the telescope world Mark. 🤔
 

Is it a Chinese brand? For some reason I thought (or hoped)  it was from Taiwan.

[mikeDnight]

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Edited April 5, 2023 by mikeDnight

[paulastro]

What has  not been mentioned is that not all observers are equal - that is in terms of experience, technique and visual acuity.  The observer is the key link in the chain of course. 

There are some observers who will never be able get the best out of either of these telescopes, never mind being able to tell the optical difference between them.  And all this without taking  into account the often poor seeing, which will be a leveler between the two scopes most of the time, certainly in the UK.

As an all round telescope, my 8inch Dob, never mind a 12 inch, will 'spank' them both. (except in portability) 🙂

 

[F15Rules]

I'd be interested to see the above comparison under good darker skies (Bortle 4 or better)..one of a good fluorite optics' key advantages is low levels of scatter, which surely would show best in dark skies with less light pollution and upward artificial spread of light?

Dave

Edited March 29, 2023 by F15Rules
Typo

[mikeDnight]

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Edited April 5, 2023 by mikeDnight