Plus ca change ...

[MalcolmM]

Mindful of the many posts and threads asking "which scope should I buy" that end up with us all basically advocating the scope that we own ourselves, I found the following quote by Thomas Romney Robinson, Astronomer and Keeper at Armagh Observatory in 1825. He was researching the best 'Mural Circle' to purchase and install in the Observatory while upgrading the Observatory instruments.

"[I] had the advantage of consulting men who are justly considered the brightest ornaments of Science, and of inspecting the noblest instruments in existence"

And he continues:

"Each observer, as he becomes habituated to his instrument, learns to correct, to avoid, or perhaps to overlook its defects, while he perceives the inaccuracies of other constructions in too strong a light".

I thought this was put brilliantly 

Quote from the book 'Church, State and Astronomy in Ireland. 200 Years of Armagh Observatory' by JA Bennett.

Malcolm 

[mikeDnight]

That's brilliant!  I have quite a library of old astronomy books, as I love the era when people actually observed and so spoke from experience. One of my favourites is a book called Telescopic Work for Starlight Evenings, by W.F. Denning. Even the title is magical to me, but some of Denning's statements are timeless wisdom. Here's one:  "....The observer himself constitutes the most important part of his telescope: it is useless having a glass of great capacity at one end of a tube, and a man of small capacity at the other. Two different observers essentially alter the character of an instrument, according to their individual skill in utilizing its powers".  I've occasionally quoted the part of Denning's statement that is in bold, as a mild sarcasm when some have scornfully questioned the truthfulness of an observation I've made. It's a great weapon that usually stunns them into silence. 

[John]

3 hours ago, MalcolmM said:

...."Each observer, as he becomes habituated to his instrument, learns to correct, to avoid, or perhaps to overlook its defects, while he perceives the inaccuracies of other constructions in too strong a light".....

 

I think there is a lot of truth in this but on forums such as this, the vast majority can only comment from the perspective of equipment that they own / use / have owned. I am guilty of it myself I'm sure, where my own equipment choices are concerned 🙄

I felt very fortunate during the period when FLO would loan me equipment to try out, compare and report back on to the forum. Not having invested in it personally (other than putting in the time to test it and write about it) created a freedom that enabled, I hope, a more dispassionate view of characteristics and performance. I know that is still happening with other folks on here, which is a great benefit to the forum 🙂

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by John

[JeremyS]

7 hours ago, MalcolmM said:

Mindful of the many posts and threads asking "which scope should I buy" that end up with us all basically advocating the scope that we own ourselves, I found the following quote by Thomas Romney Robinson, Astronomer and Keeper at Armagh Observatory in 1825. He was researching the best 'Mural Circle' to purchase and install in the Observatory while upgrading the Observatory instruments.

Yes, but he bought a Takahashi in the end

[jetstream]

5 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

The observer himself constitutes the most important part of his telescope: it is useless having a glass of great capacity at one end of a tube, and a man of small capacity at the other. 

I wonder if this quote illustrates our own capacity for narcissism?

The glass we look through matters IMHO as does the aperture it has and I'm sure if those old time astronomers looked through some modern good glass their jaws would be permanently on the floor 😀

 

[mikeDnight]

44 minutes ago, jetstream said:

I wonder if this quote illustrates our own capacity for narcissism?

The glass we look through matters IMHO as does the aperture it has and I'm sure if those old time astronomers looked through some modern good glass their jaws would be permanently on the floor 😀

 

 "Narcissism"?  I don't believe so!   I think Denning was really just pointing out that the differences between observers, their visual acuity, and skill can be dramatic, and that not everyone using the same instrument will see the same level of detail, as knowing how to observe is a skill that grows with experience.  The late british planetary observer Richard Baum said "Many look, few observe"!  It takes years to fine tune our observing skills, and so neither aperture nor optical quality can gaurantee success. 

 I've often wondered how William Herschel would react if he could use some modern scopes and eyepieces. I've no doubt there would be more than a few colourful expletives, and perhaps that may be followed by the command "Caroline, pass me that hammer", and the sound of shattering speculum metal?

Edited February 22, 2023 by mikeDnight

[jetstream]

As experience grows and skill developed I think many astronomers realize when the glass theyre using becomes a limiting factor.

@mikeDnight I realize you are a good observer and you also have top glass, the issue I have with the quote is the insinuation that anyone cant become a good observer ie the term "man of small capacity".

That phrase doesnt seem to encourage the fact that skill can be developed ( and no reference to women astronomers)- to me it sounds like skill is a "fixed" quantity in the quote eventhough the following addresses skill:

6 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

Two different observers essentially alter the character of an instrument, according to their individual skill in utilizing its powers".

I dont believe that anyone using the same top glass, under great conditions and with equal "seat time" under the stars will see vastly different features on the moon and planets.

Visual acuity is a factor though -IMHO- and increasing aperture can reveal differences in it.

I have 2 telescopes that are at the top of my heap- the 15"/Ostahowki/Astrosystems and the TSA120. These 2 scopes sure provide views that the others do not. Not that the others are bad its just these 2 sit on the top shelf, and no doubt any experienced observer with good visual acuity would see it.

Just illustrating the difference in glass and not the observer.

Gerry

[josefk]

27 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

 I've often wondered how William Herschel would react if he could use some modern scopes and eyepieces. I've no doubt there would be more than a few colourful expletives, and perhaps that may be followed by the command "Caroline, pass me that hammer", and the sound of shattering speculum metal

Never mind the mirrors - i think it's his eyepieces he'd be chucking in the duck pond first!

Herschel in my mind also "proves" both the sets of quotes on this thread - he constantly tuned and tweaked and refined his practise ("...becomes habituated to his instrument..." ) AND yet he himself was always the most important component in the overall capability of his observing system.

Edited February 22, 2023 by josefk

[josefk]

12 minutes ago, jetstream said:

As experience grows and skill developed I think many astronomers realize when the glass theyre using becomes a limiting factor.

@mikeDnight I realize you are a good observer and you also have top glass, the issue I have with the quote is the insinuation that anyone cant become a good observer ie the term "man of small capacity".

That phrase doesnt seem to encourage the fact that skill can be developed ( and no reference to women astronomers)- to me it sounds like skill is a "fixed" quantity in the quote eventhough the following addresses skill:

I dont believe that anyone using the same top glass, under great conditions and with equal "seat time" under the stars will see vastly different features on the moon and planets.

Visual acuity is a factor though -IMHO- and increasing aperture can reveal differences in it.

I have 2 telescopes that are at the top of my heap- the 15"/Ostahowki/Astrosystems and the TSA120. These 2 scopes sure provide views that the others do not. Not that the others are bad its just these 2 sit on the top shelf, and no doubt any experienced observer with good visual acuity would see it.

Just illustrating the difference in glass and not the observer.

Gerry

i read the Denning quote more positively TBH - i don't mind admitting "small capacity" at the back end of a scope but i trust in application and experience to grow that capacity. i'm also happy to think that my own skills are the most important aspect in the observing system because they're not finite (or at least need not be finite let's say).

🙂

Edited February 22, 2023 by josefk

[jetstream]

1 minute ago, josefk said:

i'm also happy to think that my own skills are the most important aspect in the observing system because they're not finite (or need not be fine let's say

Yes, your skills might be the limiting factor using the TOA130

[MalcolmM]

45 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

Many look, few observe

As the great Sherlock Holmes kept reminding Dr Watson

Some very interesting debate. I personally feel my own observing skills have a long way to go before I can get the best out of my scope.  

Malcolm

[jetstream]

2 minutes ago, MalcolmM said:

I personally feel my own observing skills have a long way to go before I can get the best out of my scope.  

And once you do then what?

[John]

I think my observing skills peaked a while back......... at a level someway below what my scopes are capable of 🙄

I think I will remain a large man of small observational capacity, but still enjoying the hobby 😀 

 

[CraigT82]

15 minutes ago, John said:

I think my observing skills peaked a while back......... at a level someway below what my scopes are capable of 🙄

I think I will remain a large man of small observational capacity, but still enjoying the hobby 😀 

 

Same here, and I’m perfectly content with that! 

[jetstream]

42 minutes ago, John said:

I think my observing skills peaked a while back......... at a level someway below what my scopes are capable of 🙄

I think I will remain a large man of small observational capacity, but still enjoying the hobby 😀 

 

Hi John!

I for one dont underestimate your observational abilities, your fine descriptions of Jupiter and lunar features ie Hadleys Rille speak volumes for your ability.

As youve sorted through many optics, you have found "keepers" IMHO and yes with your current high spec optics-including your excellent sample of the SW120ED I can see that you are not optic limited, but possibly seeing limited.

 

[josefk]

1 hour ago, jetstream said:

And once you do then what?

Get a bigger one (or indeed a smaller one) and do it all again!

[Highburymark]

1 hour ago, jetstream said:

As experience grows and skill developed I think many astronomers realize when the glass theyre using becomes a limiting factor.

@mikeDnight I realize you are a good observer and you also have top glass, the issue I have with the quote is the insinuation that anyone cant become a good observer ie the term "man of small capacity".

That phrase doesnt seem to encourage the fact that skill can be developed ( and no reference to women astronomers)- to me it sounds like skill is a "fixed" quantity in the quote eventhough the following addresses skill:

I dont believe that anyone using the same top glass, under great conditions and with equal "seat time" under the stars will see vastly different features on the moon and planets.

Visual acuity is a factor though -IMHO- and increasing aperture can reveal differences in it.

I have 2 telescopes that are at the top of my heap- the 15"/Ostahowki/Astrosystems and the TSA120. These 2 scopes sure provide views that the others do not. Not that the others are bad its just these 2 sit on the top shelf, and no doubt any experienced observer with good visual acuity would see it.

Just illustrating the difference in glass and not the observer.

Gerry

I know what you mean Gerry. It’s amazing how often we see the phrase  “experienced observer” used in product advertising - though never explaining how or when to qualify for such a lofty position. I think if a novice with good eyesight is educated about the targets he or she is seeing, with a decent enough scope and conditions, and has the patience to allow detail to gather, then there’s no reason to presume a more experienced observer always sees more.

[Stu]

18 minutes ago, Highburymark said:

I know what you mean Gerry. It’s amazing how often we see the phrase  “experienced observer” used in product advertising - though never explaining how or when to qualify for such a lofty position. I think if a novice with good eyesight is educated about the targets he or she is seeing, with a decent enough scope and conditions, and has the patience to allow detail to gather, then there’s no reason to presume a more experienced observer always sees more.

Is that not what experience is though Mark? Some take a long time to build that experience (I put myself in that camp), others pick it up very quickly. I would agree that anyone sufficiently motivated to build enough experience to know what they are looking at will see the same (assuming similar visual acuity). 

[MalcolmM]

31 minutes ago, josefk said:

Get a bigger one (or indeed a smaller one) and do it all again!

Exactly what I was thinking 

Malcolm 

[jetstream]

27 minutes ago, Highburymark said:

I know what you mean Gerry. It’s amazing how often we see the phrase  “experienced observer” used in product advertising - though never explaining how or when to qualify for such a lofty position. I think if a novice with good eyesight is educated about the targets he or she is seeing, with a decent enough scope and conditions, and has the patience to allow detail to gather, then there’s no reason to presume a more experienced observer always sees more.

👍

Hi Mark!

Great reply,

A perfect scope is not needed but as we know cooling, collimation and target education is key to observing. Our diminutive H130 is an excellent scope, a favourite actually and has the grand daughters honing their skills , when theyre here.

A friend of theirs parent bought their child  a scope... wont say what- and they have extremely limited chance of getting good views through it. The kids (and others) reaction to the moon through the H130 is typically "is it ever sharp"!!

[MalcolmM]

10 minutes ago, Stu said:

Some take a long time to build that experience (I put myself in that camp), others pick it up very quickly.

Exactly right in  my experience.  I tried playing guitar for years and years and got so frustrated when I played with someone who had 6 months against my 10 years and they played so much better than me (not that that was very difficult 😀 ) It also frustrates me when the successful entrepreneur says it's easy, anyone can do it, or ditto the world class concert pianist. Everyone is different,  different strengths,  different weaknesses and that's OK. What some find easy, others struggle with. I think everyone has a talent at something ... I'm still searching 😀

Apologies; rant over 😀

Malcolm 

[John]

22 minutes ago, Stu said:

Is that not what experience is though Mark? Some take a long time to build that experience (I put myself in that camp), others pick it up very quickly. I would agree that anyone sufficiently motivated to build enough experience to know what they are looking at will see the same (assuming similar visual acuity). 

Agreed. I've been a "slow developer" in astronomy skills but I've seen folks on here move from novice to really pushing the boundaries remarkably quickly. Good for them and I hope SGL helped them in their journey 👍

We have had quotes from notable astronomers of yore in this thread but one that puts a smile on my face is from the golfer, Lee Trevino. Back in the 1980's Trevino was playing in the British open in Scotland somewhere and he chipped from a rather nasty bunker to within an inch or two of the hole. Some wag in the gallery shouted "that was a bit lucky Lee !" and Trevino immediately quipped back "well you know, the more I practice, the luckier I seem to get !" 😄 

[IB20]

I think my inexperience in astronomy is kit rather than observing. I haven’t found observing or navigating the sky a particularly difficult “skill” to pick up but that’s thanks to help from marvellous resources such as SGL, AN/S@N, online lunar maps and software like SkySafari and Stellarium. Perhaps having a background in science has helped too.

I’d like to think I have ok eyesight still too, although have recently noticed a bit of astigmatism creeping for brighter objects with naked eye.

Whereas kit is such a vast and variable minefield. I have looked through about 5 different telescopes and 3 pairs on binoculars in total. I have enjoyed observing with them all, even what I’d probably now consider a bit of a lemon in the Celestron 76mm firstscope. I guess that’s where the “my kit” bias stems from though, we can only comment on what we have experience of and when you haven’t tried a great deal you will be limited in your experience and recommendations. 

I remember when I started (have always had an interest but just not the gear!), I looked at SGL and CN for recommendations for my first serious scope and settled on the 8” dob.
It’s a great scope but I’m still into the hobby and if I was starting afresh I’d probably go for a 10” dob instead. But I also have a wish list of a 4” APO, 5” APO, 6-8” CC, Mak, 180 Mewlon, NV, EEVA and Ha scopes. So much kit wanted with such little cash 🤣
 

 

 

[badhex]

7 hours ago, JeremyS said:

Yes, but he bought a Takahashi in the end

With a handle 

[Marki]

I've come to the conclusion that it is not really the glass, the kit, or even the seeing, but patience and discipline that I really need (and the lack of which separates me from the many good observers here). By discipline, I mean to get out under the sky and actually observe, no matter how tired, or if there are early starts in the morning or I'm feeling annoyed by work, or the myriad of other excuses I find to not actually do the one thing I should to improve my limited skills.... namely, time at the eyepiece. And by patience, really looking at an object, not flitting from one to another.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Marki