Why are there soooo many iOptron mounts?

[SamAndrew]

Talk about analysis paralysis, how is anyone meant to make a choice between GEM, CEM, Hybrid harmonic, full harmonic, iPolar, iGuider, EC, EC2.

The fact that the manufacture isn't backing one technology kind of proves that none of them have much of an advantage over the other. Are harmonic drives the future? or will we continue to see GEM and CEM offered along side? There's so much overlap between payloads and capabilities; God knows what the product team is thinking. 

It would be in their interest to discontinue 3/4 of the models, and focus on making the "winning" design better value for money.

End of rant

[newbie alert]

Can't think what your issue is... They do a full range in all categories... I'd not want a harmonic/ planetary but some at the moment do, so it be a cem or a gem for me... Cem design are smaller and lighter for their payload capacity to the gem design...only thing to think about is the size, and would I justify the expense of the encoder.... Simples.. 

If they discontinued 3/4 of the range it will cost them sales

Proud owner of a cem 60

Edited February 11, 2023 by newbie alert
Added info

[callisto]

27 minutes ago, newbie alert said:

Can't think what your issue is... They do a full range in all categories... I'd not want a harmonic/ planetary but some at the moment do, so it be a cem or a gem for me... Cem design are smaller and lighter for their payload capacity to the gem design...only thing to think about is the size, and would I justify the expense of the encoder.... Simples.. 

If they discontinued 3/4 of the range it will cost them sales

Proud owner of a cem 60

I know it's classed as "old" now, but proud owner of a CEM25p 

[SamAndrew]

22 minutes ago, newbie alert said:

Can't think what your issue is... They do a full range in all categories... I'd not want a harmonic/ planetary but some at the moment do, so it be a cem or a gem for me... Cem design are smaller and lighter for their payload capacity to the gem design...only thing to think about is the size, and would I justify the expense of the encoder.... Simples.. 

If they discontinued 3/4 of the range it will cost them sales

Proud owner of a cem 60

Mercifully the choice is much simpler in the 60+lb range, there is no GEM; Iopton have stuck to their guns and only offered the "superior" design.

The payload to weight ratio is better on both the GEM45 and GEM28 to the equivalent CEM. The CEM design is different for the sake of being different, and that's coming from someone with a CEM120. 

They have 5 different mounts in the 25-30lb category, 5 different mounts in the 40-45lb category.

How much more expensive is the CEM70 now compared to what you paid for you CEM60? we're paying for all this unnecessary choice.

How is a (well healed) newbie meant to make a choice. it's hard enough for the casual astronomer to decide if they want AZ or EQ.

 

[Elp]

It might seem excessive but it makes for sound business sense. Considering each and every person's setup is different they have managed to diversify their product range to ensure they can supply a mount to suit everyone's (most peoples) requirement. Eventually a business will cull their range to concentrate on what sells. A company that sits on their laurels and does not diversify or innovate to match or anticipate market trends will not last long, unless they are the only ones whom can produce such product, in the end if a product sells well in the market a company can thrive.

I did my research and decided on a gem28 even though I wanted a cem. For my more portable or quicker setup requirement I chose an azgti.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Elp

[newbie alert]

12 hours ago, SamAndrew said:

The payload to weight ratio is better on both the GEM45 and GEM28 to the equivalent CEM. The CEM design is different for the sake of being different, and that's coming from someone with a CEM120. 

The largest design in the gem range is the gem 45..ie 45lb payload , so it's not for the sake of just being different, it serves that purpose 

 

12 hours ago, SamAndrew said:

How much more expensive is the CEM70 now compared to what you paid for you CEM60? we're paying for all this unnecessary choice

That's the whole reason I bought the 60, as I couldn't justify the extra £650 for the extra 10lb payload and black powder coat... plus the 60 was about to be discontinued and replaced by the 70... Plus if I left it any longer the 60 was about to disappear, as it was there wasn't any left in the country, I had to buy from Germany 

12 hours ago, SamAndrew said:

How is a (well healed) newbie meant to make a choice. it's hard enough for the casual astronomer to decide if they want AZ or EQ.

Research and elimination... You should know what type of mount you  want for your needs, ie Eq or Az, and you  should know the weight capacity area of your setup with adjustments to future proof... Easy, Google it

[newbie alert]

13 hours ago, callisto said:

I know it's classed as "old" now, but proud owner of a CEM25p 

If it suits your setup, what else do you need...

[SamAndrew]

9 hours ago, newbie alert said:

You should know what type of mount you  want for your needs, ie Eq or Az, and you  should know the weight capacity area of your setup with adjustments to future proof... Easy, Google it

Close the getting started in astronomy sections of this forum and just pin this to the top. Job done 😄

9 hours ago, newbie alert said:

The largest design in the gem range is the gem 45..ie 45lb payload , so it's not for the sake of just being different, it serves that purpose 

Ok the so the purpose of the GEM is to serve the people who need 1lb of additional capacity over the HEM44, and the HEM44 serves people who need 1lb more capacity than the HAE43. Remind me which one has the best guiding accuracy, payload to weight ratio, £ to payload ratio? Google is coming up a bit short.

I'm glad Ioptron have gone to the trouble to setup additional production lines, parts bins, quality control checks so that people can tailor their mount to the nearest lb.

If Apple offered 20 different versions of the iPhone, they might sell a few extra for some neiche applications, but would they make more money maintaing so many extra product lines? There is a beauty to having a simple product line up.

[Elp]

Apple are the ones which started the different phone types nonsense per generation and everyone copied as it was a successful formula. Prior to that woe was any company which didn't produce different products to suit different requirements and budgets.

The new harmonic drive is a fairly new technology for affordable telescope mounts hence many have been released over the last few months. Yes as a beginner it's not easy to choose equipment if you've got no knowledge but that's what asking other people is for, as well as experienced astro sellers. 

It's just that you've proactively raised a grievance against ioptron for no real reason. Eventually they'll reduce their product selection once they know which ones are more popular. Skywatcher also produce a lot of different mounts.

Of course you are entitled to an opinion but as with anything, don't expect everyone's opinion to align with your own. That is what a forum is for, anything is up for discussion.

[newbie alert]

1 hour ago, SamAndrew said:

Ok the so the purpose of the GEM is to serve the people who need 1lb of additional capacity over the HEM44, and the HEM44 serves people who need 1lb more capacity than the HAE43. Remind me which one has the best guiding accuracy, payload to weight ratio, £ to payload ratio? Google is coming up a bit short.

It's categorised as

CEM

GEM

HARMONIC

Some don't like the CEM design , I wouldnt buy a harmonic but looking at the sales lots do and as you pointed out some find a Az mount suits them fine.... Not all about payload 

[SamAndrew]

11 hours ago, Elp said:

Apple are the ones which started the different phone types nonsense per generation and everyone copied as it was a successful formula. Prior to that woe was any company which didn't produce different products to suit different requirements and budgets.

The new harmonic drive is a fairly new technology for affordable telescope mounts hence many have been released over the last few months. Yes as a beginner it's not easy to choose equipment if you've got no knowledge but that's what asking other people is for, as well as experienced astro sellers. 

It's just that you've proactively raised a grievance against ioptron for no real reason. Eventually they'll reduce their product selection once they know which ones are more popular. Skywatcher also produce a lot of different mounts.

Of course you are entitled to an opinion but as with anything, don't expect everyone's opinion to align with your own. That is what a forum is for, anything is up for discussion.

Nokia and Blackberry had bigger product ranges than Apple, and look at them now. Apple released ONE killer product.

ZWO have entered the market with a single product

iOptrons response is a bloated and confused lineup and it just looks to me like Nokia and Blackberry all over again.

I guess it's because I work as part of the product team in a large tech company I can see what's happening.

 

[SamAndrew]

10 hours ago, newbie alert said:

It's categorised as

CEM

GEM

HARMONIC

Some don't like the CEM design , I wouldnt buy a harmonic but looking at the sales lots do and as you pointed out some find a Az mount suits them fine.... Not all about payload 

The Harmonics are GEMs, and there is not one harmonic, there is also hybrid harmonic, and they're very close together in price.

I'd say they should have come out with a hybrid CEM design, rather than something that looks just like all the other harmonic drives from all the new players.

[Elp]

You cannot release one mount for astronomy, you've got people who like alt az and people who utilise Equatorial. You've got setups from a simple dslr and lens setup, to small refractors weighing a few kilos more to telescopes setups weighing 10, 20, 30kg plus. If you actually read people's comments on the AM5 you'll find a lot of people state they won't use it for long focal length or heavier setups, so if a company were to concentrate on one technology or mount where would that leave them? Ioptron chose to make a hybrid system because it saves a little money for them and the price they can charge the consumer, and their "old mechanical" tech is tried and tested, they and skywatcher and many other companies have been making mounts far longer than zwo. At the end of the day it offers more choice for the consumer which is better than having singular companies with few product choices dictating to the market.

[Elp]

Nokia and Blackberry fell behind because they used antiquated operating systems which didn't allow for much developer support and progression, Nokia and others tried to innovate way before Apple via the symbian operating system. You think Apple's iphone would be as successful without it's app store?, Apple are also successful mostly because of branding and advertising, they never used to advertise what components were being used inside their iPhone for good reason, as they were underpowered compared to the competition, only now do they state what processor they're using but are still coy about everything else. Look up any successful global company and it's those that advertise and brand the most which come out on top (Nike, Mcdonalds, Coke, Rolex, Samsung, Apple, sports companies, car makers etc), not necessarily because they make a better product. 

The best astronomy mount makers hardly or don't even advertise.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Elp

[Ratlet]

Strain wave being newer is also largely an unknown in terms of how well it's going to cope on the mass market.  It also makes sense to continue with the older lines until the technology is proven obsolete, especially if people are still buying them.

I think Ioptron have done a certain amount of bet hedging with their line up as they introduced some which only have one strainwave drive where as most companies have introduced versions that have 2.  Ioptron have also tended to introduce 2 of every mount as they will often have one with/without encoders.

I don't agree about Apple and ZWO having a singler product.  Both these companies thrive because they have monopolistic ecosystems.  Itunes, the Ipad, the Iphone...  Heck, Apple even got the cables!  I could just as easily bring up Huawei which had a massive range of products and required government legislation to prevent their meteoric rise.

[Elp]

Huawei actually made decent phones, they were some of the best camera experiences, but software is king nowadays and without Google's support they're generally a non starter, particularly in western societies.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Elp

[SamAndrew]

1 hour ago, Elp said:

You cannot release one mount for astronomy, you've got people who like alt az and people who utilise Equatorial. You've got setups from a simple dslr and lens setup, to small refractors weighing a few kilos more to telescopes setups weighing 10, 20, 30kg plus. If you actually read people's comments on the AM5 you'll find a lot of people state they won't use it for long focal length or heavier setups, so if a company were to concentrate on one technology or mount where would that leave them? Ioptron chose to make a hybrid system because it saves a little money for them and the price they can charge the consumer, and their "old mechanical" tech is tried and tested, they and skywatcher and many other companies have been making mounts far longer than zwo. At the end of the day it offers more choice for the consumer which is better than having singular companies with few product choices dictating to the market.

The first iphone was terrible. look at Apple now 😄

I think one mount that can cater for up to 20kg and works in AZ and EQ modes probably covers 90% of the market.

23 minutes ago, Elp said:

Apple are also successful mostly because of branding and advertising,

I'm sure there is plenty to discuss on why Apple have been successful, but this is one of the key points, they had one product in one size, there was no confusion, just a clear message, this is the best product. My point is that iopton are known for their CEM mounts (their brand) and they've not backed it by offering the new HEM and HEA in GEM models. Developing lots of products and seeing which one sells best is terrible from a banding and advertising perspective.

[Elp]

I think they're just testing the market and see what sticks, but I suspect they rushed the hybrid out to try to be on sale before the AM5 but they didn't.. Skywatcher on the other hand haven't released a HD mount yet but I'm sure they'll be one soon.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Elp

[R26 oldtimer]

As long as they keep supporting their products (after all you don't buy a mount for a couple of years) with spare parts, then the more, the merrier...

[900SL]

It's like those restaurants that have a 5 page menu and 70 dishes to choose from, all of them bland and loaded with salt.

One reason I never bought an iOptron was that I'd nod off before I got through the first page of similar mounts but with ten different toppings

[SamAndrew]

Yes that's the perfect analogy; Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares comes to mind

I just orderd the AM5; I want something light and portable, but don't want to be part of iOptrons market research project.

Edited February 17, 2023 by SamAndrew

[Northernlight]

SamAndew I think you are being a little unfair to iOptron

just keep in mind, iOptron drives competition and innovation in the market and with more options competing in the market you usually see prices of the technology driven down. So if iOptron didn’t exist, I bet your bottom dollar the AM5 would have been a lot more expensive.

a good example of this was the rainbow Astro mounts, when they first came out, they were ridiculously expensive and then as soon as the completion turned up in the market they had to reduce their prices massively.

also flip the argument the other, some might say that zwo’s offerings are too limited with their 2 mounts available.

so it doesn’t matter if you like 1 manufacturers gear or not or if you find their product line up confusing , competitions is good for the end consumer.

Lots of other manufacturers have extended and somewhat confusing product lineup’s especially when it comes to scopes,  but as other have have said, Google is your friend, do your homework and above all else understand what it is that you actually want.

Rich.

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Northernlight
Update

[900SL]

Good luck getting parts and service in a few years time, with extended product ranges and a rapid turnover of models. It's anything but good for the consumer IMO.

[Elp]

You could say the same thing about specialist mount manufacturers whom make few models, though they may be built to last a bit longer. I feel obsolescence is designed into products to keep people buying new, just look at the car industry whereby manufacturing of parts is limited, then redesigned and remade, then modelled/designed new and tooled up for new car models, rinse and repeat.

I wanted a brake on my Declination, ioptron offer that through their hybrid mounts as the Dec is belt/worm driven as well as being a cheaper purchase option, most HD mounts released recently only have brakes on RA. So in this case I had the option of freedom of choice.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Elp

[jjohnson3803]

Related question - Why are many (most?) of these mounts out of stock or more coming or whatever?  Reminds me of a restaurant with an extensive menu, but the server tells you only a few are available.  Or am I just looking at the wrong vendors?

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by jjohnson3803