Modular Mounts?

[iantaylor2uk]

I'm surprised you can't buy a "modular" mount, in which the mechanics and the electronics are completely separate, so that the user could choose what motors and control systems to use on the mount.

I guess the closest company that comes to this is Losmandy - all that sticks out from the mount are the ends of the worms, and you can attach different motors onto this (for example, I first bought a G11 with a 492 push-to system, back in 2009, but recently upgraded to the Gemini-2 system in 2020, which meant changing the motors and gearboxes and changing the controller box). However, some others use their Losmandy mounts with OnStep or EQStarPro systems (because they didn't want to go to the expense of the Gemini system).  

The problem as I see it is that you have either (1) good engineering companies that then put cheap (or very expensive) electronics on their mounts, or (2) companies that are good at the electronics side but may be poor on the mechanics side.

I've seen lots of posts on forums where people have old mounts and have had endless problems when the electronics on those mounts have died. 

If there were people that made such mounts it may also stimulate innovations in the control and electronics side so we see more than just OnStep and EQStarPro, and this could lead to lower prices in the longer term.

Not sure what people's thoughts are on this, but to me it seems to me some people would be interested in such mounts. 

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

There are a number of issues here that we need to tease out.   Firstly, telescope mounts are a relatively low-volume business, produced in thousands at best. Compare that with cars, produced in millions, or smartphones - tens of millions. 

Re modular parts for new mounts: I don't see the benefit for the manufacturer.  For the more expensive mounts, the demand from users is mostly for GoTo mounts, to the point where there is little point (commercially) in providing anything other than the GoTo version, engineered for production.

As for modular parts for old mounts, we already have this situation with the EQ-5, which I assume was originally a manual mount. One can buy it as a manual, as a motorised, and as a GoTo, and buy kits from Sky-watcher and (apparently) from various third-party suppliers to upgrade it to GoTo.  But are all the old & new EQ-5 and their clones all mechanically the same? There's the problem. If they are not, there is no guarantee that the kits will fit.

It is unfortunate when the electronics on an old mount fails, but there is little incentive for the manufacturers to keep supporting the same mechanical design for decades so that spare electronics for new mounts will fit it.  

It would be good if, as iantaylor suggests, the mounts had a standard interface between mount, motors and electronics, but engineering this would probably increase costs. As some of you may have noticed, Skywatcher and others have yet to fit a proper USB port to their mounts rather than a lashup involving a serial chip, which suggests a lack of resources for serious development. 

I have looked inside one or two GoTo mounts and been surprised at how little stuff is in there in some of them - a circuit board and a couple of cheap-looking motor/gearboxes.  And is a Synscan upgrade worth the £350 or so they charge for it?  They can charge that because there is no off-the shelf ready to fit alternative and they are made and sold in low volumes.

I suspect there already are people who can take old and failing drive systems and upgrade them, but this bespoke service is unlikely to be cheap.

 

[900SL]

On 04/02/2023 at 19:13, iantaylor2uk said:

I'm surprised you can't buy a "modular" mount, in which the mechanics and the electronics are completely separate, so that the user could choose what motors and control systems to use on the mount.

I guess the closest company that comes to this is Losmandy - all that sticks out from the mount are the ends of the worms, and you can attach different motors onto this (for example, I first bought a G11 with a 492 push-to system, back in 2009, but recently upgraded to the Gemini-2 system in 2020, which meant changing the motors and gearboxes and changing the controller box). However, some others use their Losmandy mounts with OnStep or EQStarPro systems (because they didn't want to go to the expense of the Gemini system).  

The problem as I see it is that you have either (1) good engineering companies that then put cheap (or very expensive) electronics on their mounts, or (2) companies that are good at the electronics side but may be poor on the mechanics side.

I've seen lots of posts on forums where people have old mounts and have had endless problems when the electronics on those mounts have died. 

If there were people that made such mounts it may also stimulate innovations in the control and electronics side so we see more than just OnStep and EQStarPro, and this could lead to lower prices in the longer term.

Not sure what people's thoughts are on this, but to me it seems to me some people would be interested in such mounts. 

 

I'd certainly be in for a 10 micron type build quality mount, 15kg imaging capacity, with good quality motors,  belt drive,  and a standard interface with everything else ported outside to PC control and not reliant on proprietary software or controllers. 

No encoders, no on board gizmos, just a high quality mount and motors 

[markse68]

I guess you could always retrofit a new controller and motors to an integrated mount but there is something nice about the simplicity of traditional well engineered mounts where the drives are an add-on so easily replaced/upgraded. I upgraded the motors to belt drive on my G11 but still use the Gemini servo drive- it’s fully customisable. Another maker you never hear anything about but who to my eyes make stunning mounts with add-on motors are Bellincioni in Italy: https://www.bellincioni.com/en/goods_caregory/montature-equatoriali/

Mark

 

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

I don't think that modular construction, or new drives for old mounts, is ever going to be cheap. But it occurs to me that with the advances in technology available today the fitting of new drives to old mounts could be facilitated by using laser-scanning to design brackets and couplings and then printing them so that a new modular drive can be attached.  (If this sounds like science fiction, I should point out that this is how up-to-date private dentists produce tooth crowns in one visit - search for CEREC.)

I note than none of the 'alternative' GoTo drives for the EQ-5 seem to include a full GoTo handset - worth around £140 these days - relying instead on a computer connection.

[900SL]

24 minutes ago, markse68 said:

I guess you could always retrofit a new controller and motors to an integrated mount but there is something nice about the simplicity of traditional well engineered mounts where the drives are an add-on so easily replaced/upgraded. I upgraded the motors to belt drive on my G11 but still use the Gemini servo drive- it’s fully customisable. Another maker you never hear anything about but who to my eyes make stunning mounts with add-on motors are Bellincioni in Italy: https://www.bellincioni.com/en/goods_caregory/montature-equatoriali/

Mark

 

 

They look interesting. Appear to be well machined.  

[johnturley]

On 04/02/2023 at 17:13, iantaylor2uk said:

I'm surprised you can't buy a "modular" mount, in which the mechanics and the electronics are completely separate, so that the user could choose what motors and control systems to use on the mount.

I guess the closest company that comes to this is Losmandy - all that sticks out from the mount are the ends of the worms, and you can attach different motors onto this (for example, I first bought a G11 with a 492 push-to system, back in 2009, but recently upgraded to the Gemini-2 system in 2020, which meant changing the motors and gearboxes and changing the controller box). However, some others use their Losmandy mounts with OnStep or EQStarPro systems (because they didn't want to go to the expense of the Gemini system).  

The problem as I see it is that you have either (1) good engineering companies that then put cheap (or very expensive) electronics on their mounts, or (2) companies that are good at the electronics side but may be poor on the mechanics side.

I've seen lots of posts on forums where people have old mounts and have had endless problems when the electronics on those mounts have died. 

If there were people that made such mounts it may also stimulate innovations in the control and electronics side so we see more than just OnStep and EQStarPro, and this could lead to lower prices in the longer term.

Not sure what people's thoughts are on this, but to me it seems to me some people would be interested in such mounts. 

 

That's pretty much how things were 50 years ago in the 1970's, Fullerscopes and Astronomical Equipment (Luton) were prime examples, in fact they were just about the only producers of mounts in the UK, later joined by Astro Systems and Bedford Astronomical supplies. 

You could purchase the mounts with or without slow motions, synchronous motor drives or Variable Frequency Oscillators, or add them on a later date. Limited technology maybe, but no complicated motherboards to burn out. I have a 40 year old mount from Astro  Systems, the original RA and Dec motors are still in working order, and touchwood will remain so the the rest of my observing days (I'm currently 73 years old !)