Sunk cost fallacy, time to pack it in?

[ollypenrice]

4 hours ago, pipnina said:

I understand that line of thinking, and maybe I am stressing over it too much... But I also know at heart I am a pixel peeper and even if other people might look at my images and go "oh that looks nice!" I'll still know what's "wrong" with it and will struggle to be satisfied!

As for diffraction spikes, I rather like them in all honesty in reflector images... But only so far as I could keep them sharp and defined, and they didn't encroach on the image or sit at angles other than increments of 45 degrees. It sort of gives a hubble-esque look to me and I think the mirrors scatter a little less light than lenses, leading to bright stars bloating a bit less in a reflector which makes up for it a bit in my mind. Still, at that point it's an artistic choice as much as anything! Coma in the field center and astigmatism at the edge isn't so easy to debate over. Like you say though, everyone has their tolerance and tolerances can change over time...

Who cares about small stars any more? We have total control over them now...

Olly

[ONIKKINEN]

44 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Who cares about small stars any more? We have total control over them now...

Olly

Im picking a note from my nitpick hat for this one, but...

Stars being large/aberrated is a symptom rather than the actual issue. Whatever aberration caused the stars to be wonky will do the same for the subject nebula/galaxy but since those are typically not point sources the effect is just an additional blur or loss in perceivable sharpness.

But still, agree with you for the most part. More ways to work around the issue than there are ways to worry about it.

Another solution for @pipnina  . You could mosaic images 2x2 or even 3x3 and bin aggressively. Nobody cares what shape the stars were or what sharpness issues there were if the end result is shown at 4"/pixel where it is sharp to look at anyway.

[Xilman]

1 hour ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Another solution for @pipnina  . You could mosaic images 2x2 or even 3x3 and bin aggressively. Nobody cares what shape the stars were or what sharpness issues there were if the end result is shown at 4"/pixel where it is sharp to look at anyway.

Yet another approach: assume that all the stars are distorted images of ideal point sources. All their images are then the point spread function of the optical train at the position of the star. Measure this PSF and fit a plausible (possibly spatially dependent) function to it. The fitting is an attempt to remove noise from the image.

Then deconvolve your entire image, including both fuzzy things and fairly sharp things like stars, with that PSF.  OK, this takes time, care, expertise and significant computer time but exactly the same is true of traditional AP post-processing. Note that if the PSF includes diffraction spikes from a secondary support the deconovlution will remove them too.

The process can work extremely well in practice. It was universally used on HST images before COSTAR was installed to correct for spherical aberration. I have used it myself in a few circumstances where I thought the results would be worth the additional effort.

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Xilman
s/though/thought/

[FLO]

On 24/01/2023 at 19:35, pipnina said:

I contacted the people at FLO and they have forwarded me to Es Reid, who I will be contacting shortly. But they warned me that the *minimum* I would be charged would be £75 per hour, plus the (based on my estimates) £150 needed to post it to and back.

In fairness, your Esprit-100 is around three years old and the pinching is so very slight. We advised you it is not worth trying to correct it.

All telescopes, if you look hard enough, have an aberration of one type or another. None are perfect. 

We offered to send it to Es' because we can tell it is upsetting you, you purchased it from us (the TS-Photon & 130mm f6.6 were not purchased at FLO) and we like to help. 

10 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

Will it really cost £150 to send it each way? 

I don't know where that figure came from. Not us. 

The cost of collection, delivery to Es, and then collection and redelivery to the owner is normally around £30 total. 

If Es thinks he can sensibly improve the aberration - he will.

He charges £75 per hour. Most adjustments are made within an hour. 

At FLO we are charging only what it costs us (Es' charge and courier costs). We are not profiting from this situation. 

@pipnina Your glass is currently half empty. It happens to all of us at one time or another. It is like the weather. It will pass 🙂 

Best wishes, 

Steve 

[pipnina]

25 minutes ago, FLO said:

In fairness, your Esprit-100 is around three years old and the pinching is so very slight, we advised you it is not worth trying to correct it.

All telescopes, if you look hard enough, have an aberration of one type or another. None are perfect. 

We offered to send it to Es' because we can tell it is upsetting you, you purchased it from us (the TS-Photo & 130mm f6.6 were not purchased at FLO) and we like to help. 

I don't know where that figure came from. Not us. 

The cost of collection, delivery to Es, and then collection and redelivery to the owner is normally around £30. 

If Es thinks he can sensibly improve the aberration - he will.

He charges £75 per hour. Most adjustments are made within an hour. 

At FLO we are charging only what it costs us (Es' charge and courier costs). We are not profiting from this situation. 

@pipnina Your glass is currently half empty. It happens to all of us at one time or another. It is like the weather. It will pass 🙂 

Best wishes, 

Steve 

My estimate for two way delivery was based on how much it cost to get it to me when I bought it: £57, plus some padding because when costs aren't 100% certain I tend to try and imagine it's more than is perhaps realistic. I realise now i made it seem like *you* quoted the postage price, when actually it's my own estimate, whoops... If parcelforce (seemingly Mr Reid's preferred courier) charges less than DHL then that's fine my me. I will be honest I had realised I did not clarify how long corrections can take (I worry a lot about mis-handling social requests, with the ASD and such). So I wasn't sure if I'd be paying for one hour or ten, for example.

You, and others in this thread are most likely right, I am likely being a bit pessimistic, but not without having been worn down a bit first!

I can only thank you guys at FLO for your help, as I've been directed to a fair few helpful pieces of advice and purchases via contacting you by email.

Your service is why, the only times I've bought something astro related anywhere else- is because you don't stock it or I couldn't afford buying new.

Thanks again for forwarding me to Mr Reid in this matter.

Edited January 27, 2023 by pipnina

[Adam J]

39 minutes ago, FLO said:

In fairness, your Esprit-100 is around three years old and the pinching is so very slight. We advised you it is not worth trying to correct it.

 

Steve I think that wires have been crossed some place, I looked back through this thread and unless I have missed it there is no mention of an Esprit 100? I think you may be mixing up two different issues from two different forum members?

Adam

[FLO]

20 minutes ago, Adam J said:

Steve I think that wires have been crossed some place, I looked back through this thread and unless I have missed it there is no mention of an Esprit 100? I think you may be mixing up two different issues from two different forum members?

Eek! 

You are right. I am mistaking two customers. Sorry @pipnina 😳

I see now that pipnina is posting about a telescope that was not purchased from FLO, so when he contacted us, we put him directly in touch with Es.

The other customer, the one I am confusing him with, purchased an Esprit-100 from us, so we are making arrangements for him and handling collections/deliveries/redeliveries. 

I need more coffee! ☕

Steve 

[FLO]

2 hours ago, pipnina said:

I worry a lot about mis-handling social requests, with the ASD and such

You are not alone. 

Astronomy is a science so attracts intelligent, decent, educated people. People with strong attention to detail and good observation skills. Qualities associated also with ASD 🙂

[Voxish]

On 27/01/2023 at 22:23, FLO said:

You are not alone. 

Astronomy is a science so attracts intelligent, decent, educated people. People with strong attention to detail and good observation skills. Qualities associated also with ASD 🙂

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Voxish

[Voxish]

.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Voxish

[DSviewer]

Always a risk used items

[Mr Spock]

Aspie here. My attention to detail is second to none. The slightest flaw in anything upsets me.

On the good side, my ability to follow procedure and act impartially, logically and without any emotion, comes in handy when being a moderator  
It also explains where the Mr Spock persona comes from. I am indeed more Vulcan than Human 

[Xilman]

Also an Aspie.

There's a lot of us about.  Some estimates are around 5% of the population are somewhere on the spectrum.

[Voxish]

On 28/01/2023 at 12:52, Mr Spock said:

Aspie here. My attention to detail is second to none. The slightest flaw in anything upsets me.

On the good side, my ability to follow procedure and act impartially, logically and without any emotion, comes in handy when being a moderator  
It also explains where the Mr Spock persona comes from. I am indeed more Vulcan 

.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Voxish

[Voxish]

On 28/01/2023 at 13:22, Xilman said:

Also an Aspie.

There's a lot of us about.  Some estimates are around 5% of the population are somewhere on the spectrum

 

.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Voxish

[Mr Spock]

Perhaps a thread in the non astro Lounge would be best suited to an ASD discussion 

[Voxish]

.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Voxish

[Xilman]

7 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

Perhaps a thread in the non astro Lounge would be best suited to an ASD discussion 

You have more power, being a mod, than I.

Make it so.

[pipnina]

The scope is now in the hands of Es, awaiting prognosis!

 

I had to find a new post office as the one most local to me has closed down as if jan 1st, in the end postage via parcel force 48 came to £72!

DHL didn't charge that much, but it's Es' preferred courier so I figure he trusts them for a reason (well he said Post office, but I think royal mail doesn't deal with items this size, leaving PF as the only other option). But I also don't know if DHL was told the sale value of the parcel when it was sent to me.

Maybe I could have sent it cheaper if I undervalued the parcel (I used the value I bought the scope for) but even though glass isn't insured, I'd be devastated if the parcel was lost entirely while undervalued by the courier.

 

At any rate, fingers crossed!

[pipnina]

Seems I've unintentionally paper bombed his workshop 😅 

I used (per recommendation of a local store) printer paper scrunched up to cushion the bottom of the box, and the other end was cushioned with bubble wrap... And I forgot to mark which end was which! Plus, my botch job at affixing the focuser to the tube has failed on him as he lifted it from the box... Oh dear. I have apologised but he did say it made him laugh so there's that.

 

On the plus side early impressions of the optics are promising!

Edited February 8, 2023 by pipnina

[CraigT82]

10 minutes ago, pipnina said:

On the plus side early impressions of the optics are promising!

Good news! Fingers crossed for you 🤞

[bosun21]

1 hour ago, pipnina said:

On the plus side early impressions of the optics are promising!

I truly hope that there’s a pot of gold awaiting you at the end of this astronomical rainbow.

[RobertI]

We wait with baited breath. Good luck. 🙂

[pipnina]

The telescope has made it home!

Es said he cleaned the lenses, identified the middle element as a "fluor crown" and said it had a slight mistiness to it, but he has attempted to clean it up. He also epoxied the focuser to the tube so it should now be nice and rigidly attached, unlike when i sent it to him.

Sadly the weather tonight is poor and the forecast doesn't show much hope either, but I hope to test it soon!

I actually thought he was underselling himself a bit when he gave me the bill, but as long as he's happily compensated and i haven't broken my bank all is well I suppose.

Fingers crossed!

[pipnina]

Unfortunately all is not well. Some issues remain with the scope, maybe it has even worsened as there is now a notable amount of colour at the corners!

I got the chance to give it a test last night. Of course having not had the opportunity to til now, I sent her to look at M42! Aside from my constant amazement whenever I image this target at how little exposure is necessary for a clean image (in this case, 6 minutes!), I am rather disappointed to learn that this endeavour of sending the scope off for service has largely been in vain. I wouldn't say useless as I need to investigate further, and Mr Reid did affix my focuser which I did not attach properly the first time, as well as clean some "mist" from the fluor element.

But coma is still present, and maybe pinching (looking at Hatsya, that halo's points seem a bit odd, I don't notice it anywhere else and to be honest, that effect doesn't bother me much). And worst of all chromatic aberration at the corners! I am not sure if this could mean the lenses are misfigured, or if I now have an issue where the corrector at the other end is just not up to task. I have always meant to replace it with a higher quality one but maybe this is the time? I don't know. But if we assume Mr Reid's work stayed in place in transit, the problem must lie elsewhere!

Keen to hear anyone's thoughts on this 😬