SW 80ED Pro and starting AP as a beginner

[Beardy30]

Morning photography but as you can imagine it’s limited in capability..hi 
Hi I’m a total newbie to Ap having only used my 127 azi gti for visual and some smart phone shots 

im considering a 80ED pro for the Ap side on the same mount so happy with that choice but I Have no idea about guide cams and guide scopes or even what I do with them any advice would be much appreciated 

 

thanks. 😊
I’m and therefore considering a sw 80ED pro to start my AP journey on the same mount azi gti which should be fine with the eq mount feature.

My question is really what else in need, I hear about guide scopes and guide cam but have absolutely no idea what to buy ir what to do with them any help would be appreciated 

[PeterCPC]

The problem is that that is an AltAz mount - for AP you really want an EQ mount to be able to track and guide. However, there is a thread running on here about imaging with an AltAz mount so I would have a look there.

[Beardy30]

I have the eq parts - it converts to eq and should be ok  for my level 

[Elp]

You could read through the azgti owners forum by @AstroNebulee

Basically you need:

1. Guidescope - many people use the 30mm SVbony/Zwo one, a 50mm with helical focuser will make focusing for stars easier if you setup and breakdown every time, the increase in aperture also resolves more stars.

2. Guide camera. Something simple like an zwo 120mc or Altair, Qhy etc equivalent, a mono will be better than a colour one.

3. A computer to control it all or a mini pc or raspberry pi/asiair, note if you use an Asiair your cameras (some Canon and Nikon DSLRs to use as the imaging camera are supported) and any automation equipment (not mount) will have to be zwo.

4. An eqdir cable to connect the computer controller to the mount.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Elp

[Shimrod]

I'm not sure if an 80ed loaded up for AP might be pushing the weight limit of the mount, especially in EQ mode. I think some have had success overloading the mount with a carefully balanced telescope but if you haven't yet bought the 80ed you might want to look for something a bit smaller/lighter.

[Elp]

I'm at 6.5kg, but knowingly I'm probably wearing the gears out. Using an OAG can save a little on weight, and guiding will be better.

[Beardy30]

48 minutes ago, Shimrod said:

I'm not sure if an 80ed loaded up for AP might be pushing the weight limit of the mount, especially in EQ mode. I think some have had success overloading the mount with a carefully balanced telescope but if you haven't yet bought the 80ed you might want to look for something a bit smaller/lighter.

Any suggestions? 

[Shimrod]

20 minutes ago, Beardy30 said:

Any suggestions? 

It depends on what you want to image and your budget. I've seen quite a few using the 72ed or a Redcat 51. I use a Williams Optics ZS61. The 72ed is by far the cheapest of those three. Altair 60edf is a more affordable version of the ZS61, and the Altair 60ed (without FPL53 glass) is a similar price to the Skywatcher 72ed.

[Beardy30]

yea the 72ed would be very manageable on the azi gti weight wise and I believe a good starter scope for beginners 

Any suggestions which cam I should use in the find scope and also for the main ota I have no idea 

for my finder scope/ guide scope this has the svbony 165 is what’s been recommended to me 

[Shimrod]

1 hour ago, Beardy30 said:

yea the 72ed would be very manageable on the azi gti weight wise and I believe a good starter scope for beginners 

Any suggestions which cam I should use in the find scope and also for the main ota I have no idea 

for my finder scope/ guide scope this has the svbony 165 is what’s been recommended to me 

The ASI120mm is a good starter guide camera and what I have. My main camera is an ASI533mc but please don't take that as a recommendation simply because I have no experience of any other imaging equipment. Although I've had the kit for a while, I've had little chance to do much imaging so am still very much a novice! Hopefully someone like @vlaiv will be along and be able to recommend a good camera for your chosen scope.

[vlaiv]

1 hour ago, Beardy30 said:

yea the 72ed would be very manageable on the azi gti weight wise and I believe a good starter scope for beginners 

Any suggestions which cam I should use in the find scope and also for the main ota I have no idea 

for my finder scope/ guide scope this has the svbony 165 is what’s been recommended to me 

AzGTI is not really demanding on guide side of things as it can't perform like larger mounts. You will be limited by mount performance rather than guide system, therefore - any camera + guide scope will do the trick.

Get what is most sensible to you - if you can get any sort of small guide camera second hand - go with that. If Svbony 165 Svbony 105 is something that you can easily get - go with that.

Do bear in mind that Svbony 105 is just repackaged web camera. It's main drawback is that it can't output raw video / raw data. This will severely limit its use in other scenarios. Most people use guide camera as lunar / planetary camera as well. Svbony 105 is really not that good in such role.

Similarly - if you move to more serious mount - you'll want better guide camera. Problem with cameras that use compression is - well just that, compression artifacts. Stars won't be nice and round, but will rather have artifacts associated with compression (think blocky Jpeg appearance - but not so severe). This can result in improper star position calculation. Again - that won't be much of an issue with AzGTI - since it can't perform very precisely itself - but it could be bottle neck for something like Heq5/EQ6 in the future.

I personally have 30mm guide scope with ASI185mc (could be called an overkill, but that camera is what I have for guiding for more serious setups, so I use it for this as well) on my AzGti for guiding.

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by vlaiv
Confused Svbony 165 with Svbony 105 - one is guide scope other is camera

[vlaiv]

Oh, I completely misread your post @Beardy30

Above is written for Svbony 105 - camera, not Svbony 165  - guide scope.

As far as guide scope goes - again, get what is most accessible. Anything 30mm will do the trick. I'm using this one:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/guide-scopes/astro-essentials-30mm-f4-mini-guide-scope.html

I'm sure that Svbony 165 will also perform great on mount like AzGTI - above part related to performance still applies - you don't need larger guide scope for that mount in EQ mode.

[Beardy30]

19 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

AzGTI is not really demanding on guide side of things as it can't perform like larger mounts. You will be limited by mount performance rather than guide system, therefore - any camera + guide scope will do the trick.

Get what is most sensible to you - if you can get any sort of small guide camera second hand - go with that. If Svbony 165 Svbony 105 is something that you can easily get - go with that.

Do bear in mind that Svbony 105 is just repackaged web camera. It's main drawback is that it can't output raw video / raw data. This will severely limit its use in other scenarios. Most people use guide camera as lunar / planetary camera as well. Svbony 105 is really not that good in such role.

Similarly - if you move to more serious mount - you'll want better guide camera. Problem with cameras that use compression is - well just that, compression artifacts. Stars won't be nice and round, but will rather have artifacts associated with compression (think blocky Jpeg appearance - but not so severe). This can result in improper star position calculation. Again - that won't be much of an issue with AzGTI - since it can't perform very precisely itself - but it could be bottle neck for something like Heq5/EQ6 in the future.

I personally have 30mm guide scope with ASI185mc (could be called an overkill, but that camera is what I have for guiding for more serious setups, so I use it for this as well) on my AzGti for guiding.

Thanks 😊 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Beardy30

[Beardy30]

Still no idea why I should look at cam wise 😂 I have no idea 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Beardy30

[vlaiv]

5 minutes ago, Beardy30 said:

Still no idea why I should look at cam wise 😂 I have no idea 

Ok, so what is your question here actually.

Do you want to know about guide setup - camera + guide scope? If so, then please provide some additional detail

1) Budget and if cheap option is important

2) DIY skills in case you want to go real cheap

3) do you intent to use that guide setup only on AzGti or do you plan to expand in future

4) do you intend to use that camera for additional things like planetary / lunar imaging (I'm gathering that you meant SW 127 + AzGti as your current combo when you said "only used my 127 azi gti for visual ").

Do you want to decide on main camera as well to be paired with 72ED (80ED will be to heavy for AzGTI) or smaller scope?

[Beardy30]

Hi - I’ve established the the 72 will ok  for the mount I have which is the azi gti. Although I still may go for an 80 and upgrade my mount but let’s for now say it’s the 72 as it’s decent and I’d be more than happy with it

My finder scope was f choice is the svbony 165 which was recommended to me so I’m happy with it

its the cams I’m confused about -

 

qu1 - would a Zwo 120 and be ok for the finder/guide scope and if so what would I need for the 72 or 80 OTA ? 
 

and qu 2 do they need to be mono or colour or does it not matter ? 

Thanks 😊 

[vlaiv]

5 minutes ago, Beardy30 said:

qu1 - would a Zwo 120 and be ok for the finder/guide scope and if so what would I need for the 72 or 80 OTA ? 

Yes, ASI120 is perfectly fine for guide camera.

What model exactly, that will depend on your other aspirations.

If you want it solely for guiding and want just a bit better guide performance - use mono.

If you want it to double as your planetary camera - use color and get USB3.0 version.

If you want cheapest option possible and don't care about planetary - use color USB2.0 version (it should be cheapest).

As far as main imaging camera - that will largely depend on your budget and level of complexity.

Simplest option would be to go for mirrorless type camera (DSLR but in mirrorless version at is lighter).

Next up the ladder would be modified DSLR.

Next step would be OSC / Color dedicated astronomy camera.

Then cooled OSC camera

and finally mono cooled dedicated camera + filters.

Again - its all down to level of complexity you want and how much money you want to spend.

11 minutes ago, Beardy30 said:

nd qu 2 do they need to be mono or colour or does it not matter ? 

For guiding mono will have small edge over color, but in principle - you won't see the difference in real use. All of my guide cameras (had several) were color and I never had issues. On paper - mono is just a bit more sensitive and it gives just a bit more precision, but in reality with small pixels and sensitive sensors - it won't make any significant difference.

For main imaging camera - see above, it adds much in terms of complexity and cost, and you should probably start with color camera for sake of simplicity.

I'd say - get second hand DSLR body and use that first until you learn stuff, but DSLR tends to be heavier - so I recommend you look into mirrorless instead - if you can find one second hand - then great, but they are relatively new and I'm not sure how often do they pop up second hand.

[Beardy30]

Thank you that’s very detailed and very helpful, just one last question, which OSC / Color dedicated astronomy camera for the main ota would you advise if I went that route instead of the dslr option

[vlaiv]

18 minutes ago, Beardy30 said:

Thank you that’s very detailed and very helpful, just one last question, which OSC / Color dedicated astronomy camera for the main ota would you advise if I went that route instead of the dslr option

That will very much depend on your budget.

If money is not an issue and you want future proof thing - then this one:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-2600mc-pro-usb-30-cooled-colour-camera.html

It has same sensor size as would regular DSLR / mirrorless (in fact even larger than some of them) - and it has great characteristics.

All other options are really some sort of trade-off.

This one is often recommended (and I don't object to that): https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-533mc-pro-usb-30-cooled-colour-camera.html

but it is a small sensor. It will work good on short focal length scope, but if you want to sample properly with it - you will get images that are say 1500x1500px in size, which is on a bit smaller side by today's standards (when most people use 1920x1080 as base display resolution - so everything is in full hd or higher).

You can save some money by getting that camera without cooling - but that will require you to pay special attention to calibration. Luckily - there is no amp glow, so it won't be that problematic - but you will still need to either scale darks or just use bias + dark offset removal.

Similarly - there is this model:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-183mc-pro-usb-3-cooled-colour-camera.html

It has enough pixels, so yes - you can get cooled version. It will require proper calibration as it has some amp glow. I would not recommend that in non cooled version if you want good calibration as amp glow is PITA for that.

ASI294 has some issues with flat calibration, so you have to be careful about that.

Then there is this one:

https://www.altairastro.com/altair-hypercam-269c-colour-camera---tec-cooled-1097-p.asp

Looking at the specs - it could be "the entry level" camera, but I haven't seen much in terms of feedback and if it really performs as good as it ought to by the specs.

Bottom line - you need to think in terms of money and level of convenience / inconvenience.

[LaurenceT]

4 hours ago, Shimrod said:

It depends on what you want to image and your budget. I've seen quite a few using the 72ed or a Redcat 51. I use a Williams Optics ZS61. The 72ed is by far the cheapest of those three. Altair 60edf is a more affordable version of the ZS61, and the Altair 60ed (without FPL53 glass) is a similar price to the Skywatcher 72ed.

I use the WO ZS61 as my main scope but since a recent back problem I've been intending to use it on my AZ GTI instead of the much heavier EQ5.

Knowing the limited load capacity of the AZ GTI I weighed everything being:

ZS61, FF, ASI533MC, mini guidescope, ASI120MM mini, ASIAIR Pro with mini router, ZWO EAF and dovetail bar, the whole lot came to 3.85 Kg.

Close to the maximum for the mount in Alt Az mode but somewhat over the recommended limit for imaging but seeing how many people use greater loads than that on the AZ-GTI I'm quite prepared to take that chance.

Edited January 21, 2023 by LaurenceT

[Beardy30]

2 hours ago, vlaiv said:

That will very much depend on your budget.

If money is not an issue and you want future proof thing - then this one:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-2600mc-pro-usb-30-cooled-colour-camera.html

It has same sensor size as would regular DSLR / mirrorless (in fact even larger than some of them) - and it has great characteristics.

All other options are really some sort of trade-off.

This one is often recommended (and I don't object to that): https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-533mc-pro-usb-30-cooled-colour-camera.html

but it is a small sensor. It will work good on short focal length scope, but if you want to sample properly with it - you will get images that are say 1500x1500px in size, which is on a bit smaller side by today's standards (when most people use 1920x1080 as base display resolution - so everything is in full hd or higher).

You can save some money by getting that camera without cooling - but that will require you to pay special attention to calibration. Luckily - there is no amp glow, so it won't be that problematic - but you will still need to either scale darks or just use bias + dark offset removal.

Similarly - there is this model:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-183mc-pro-usb-3-cooled-colour-camera.html

It has enough pixels, so yes - you can get cooled version. It will require proper calibration as it has some amp glow. I would not recommend that in non cooled version if you want good calibration as amp glow is PITA for that.

ASI294 has some issues with flat calibration, so you have to be careful about that.

Then there is this one:

https://www.altairastro.com/altair-hypercam-269c-colour-camera---tec-cooled-1097-p.asp

Looking at the specs - it could be "the entry level" camera, but I haven't seen much in terms of feedback and if it really performs as good as it ought to by the specs.

Bottom line - you need to think in terms of money and level of convenience / inconvenience.

Thanks, all a tad expensive for a beginner like me though so perhaps a bit more saving to do ! 👍🏼