No overnight wild camping on part of Dartmoor, doe this affect dark sky access?

[saac]

3 hours ago, scarp15 said:

Ok therefore within that context this would also include referring to people who go and visit the hills for their recreation, whether that be hillwalkers, climbers, cyclists. Yet the burning of moorland for grouse shooting, extreme populations of deer and pheasants purely for shooting and lets include fox hunting, fine no harm done there then.

It is not to say that there are not problems arising from certain areas with visitor numbers and misuse of some bothies that ought to be addressed, yet as far as I am concerned I am not ignorant to Scotland, you over exaggerate.

No it would not, only if within that set you are including those who, like I said earlier, either by ignorance, action or inaction are causing damage.   We control and limit access to stadia, transport, and other important infrastructure and we do so on grounds of safety, capacity and for protection (of both people and the assets).  It is my belief that we are negligent of thought to assume that the environment, mountain tops, trails and lowland paths are immune from similar capacity stress.  I really cannot understand the thinking that unbridled pursuit of tourism growth, and so called personal freedoms trump the environment.  I referenced The Eagles Last Paradise previously "They call it paradise, I don't know why. You call somewhere paradise and kiss it goodbye" - it still seems pretty apt to me.   I respect your views scarp, although I profoundly disagree, so again respectfully, we are not going to close the gap on this one.

Jim 

Edited February 22, 2023 by saac

[saac]

Wonder if they have budget provision to commit to a rolling programme of repair and upkeep.  One million pounds for 3 miles of path repairs!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3gp0je3x3yo

Jim 

[jetstream]

Sitting here many thousands of miles away has me feeling bad for the land over there.

It has disrespectful , damaging tourists and  also damaging practises such as peat burning and de naturalization ( eradicating certain native species) for the sake of hunting. Along with the burning goes the insects and small mammals.

Ironically, the people that are hurt the most are the ones that truly respect the land, like @scarp15 and who enjoy it immensely.

I cannot understand how anyone could support the camping ban without also supporting a ban on the damaging estate practises. Perhaps reforms should include stopping any damaging practises, repatriating the land to the people under the supervision of someone /something  that has its interests at heart, first and foremost.

Once established people could then be vetted and then allowed back to wild camp, or something along these lines.

I cant hunt in Quetico or drive a motor boat but I can take a canoe and fishing rod on an excursion. Snowmobiles are out as well. Here anyone breaking these laws are subject to massive fines right out of the gate. No one, that Ive ever heard of has breached these conditions, and why would anyone want to.

Two more timberwolves ran down the bay in front of the house today and  we spotted a moose recently in our travels. Otters are on the ice and grouse are sliding down the snowy hills.

Yes, people and nature can co exist nicely.

 

[scarp15]

Skye's Old Man of Storr had always been popular. Me and my then girlfriend backpacked across the entire Trotternish Ridge on Skye back in the early / mid 90's and it was popular then.  The Skye Trial incidentally is a fantastic relatively new backpackers trail that also on the first sections covers this ground. Sections on the Pennine Way, that had considerable footpath damage and therefore were paved was controversial at the time (again in the late 80s early 90's). The paving has blended in really well and the outlying vegetations has thrived. There had been recent concerns about footpath maintenance in the Lake District, which had received funding via the EU, for which obviously for the UK is now closed.  Funding streams for footpath maintenance are available through National lottery funding I believe. 

 

11 hours ago, jetstream said:

Sitting here many thousands of miles away has me feeling bad for the land over there.

It has disrespectful , damaging tourists and  also damaging practises such as peat burning and de naturalization ( eradicating certain native species) for the sake of hunting. Along with the burning goes the insects and small mammals.

Ironically, the people that are hurt the most are the ones that truly respect the land, like @scarp15 and who enjoy it immensely.

I cannot understand how anyone could support the camping ban without also supporting a ban on the damaging estate practises. Perhaps reforms should include stopping any damaging practises, repatriating the land to the people under the supervision of someone /something  that has its interests at heart, first and foremost.

Once established people could then be vetted and then allowed back to wild camp, or something along these lines.

I cant hunt in Quetico or drive a motor boat but I can take a canoe and fishing rod on an excursion. Snowmobiles are out as well. Here anyone breaking these laws are subject to massive fines right out of the gate. No one, that Ive ever heard of has breached these conditions, and why would anyone want to.

Two more timberwolves ran down the bay in front of the house today and  we spotted a moose recently in our travels. Otters are on the ice and grouse are sliding down the snowy hills.

Yes, people and nature can co exist nicely.

 

Yes this practice is appalling Gerry. It is now meant to be illegal concerning heather moorland burning where there is shallow peat, realistically there should be a wholesale ban. It does incinerate lizards, insects, flora and forna, hostile to small mammals, upsets nesting birds and becomes a monoculture. The illegal persecution of raptures also continues at a pace on these estates. They also blight national parks and make up to 44% of the Cairngorms as mentioned creating a monoculture with only  grouse, deer little else. Numerous articles, here's a taster.

Britain’s national parks dominated by driven grouse moors, says study | National parks | The Guardian

Grouse shoots scrapped as heather burning is banned on moors | Rural affairs | The Guardian

As said previously there are certain issues that require to be appropriately addressed caused by human impact, yet I do not recognise the exaggerated claims and no they are not a new issue. To experience, enjoy and explore:- responsibly and respectfully our natural environments is essential for a healthy life, good mental well being, belonging and fulfilment. 

The campaign to reintroduce Lynx to the UK particularly Scotland is still very much active, along with protections for beaver, eagle, wildcat etc. 

Don't be fooled Gerry, Scotland is a beautiful and wild place and much of what you refer to is also relatable here to and remember, the North West of Scotland was once joined to Canada, so it is a part. We do not have the Timberwolf though; at least not yet...

 

 

 

[scarp15]

Here is a fascinating article featuring an exhibition on rural Scottish communities in the 1930's, a collection by female photographers. Worth noting that the Scottish Highlands became significantly depopulated, entire communities forcibly evicted many of whom were sent off to harsh and impoverished lives in Canada, North America, others to eke out a living forming coastal communities or else go to the emerging slums of Glasgow and the fledgling industries through the 18th and into the early 19th centuries. I have encountered numerous ruined croft communities, the evictions particularly severe on Skye, Knoydart, Sutherland. The empty glens of today once had thriving communities, that made way for sheep.  

‘A one-woman job’: early 20th century Scotland – in pictures | Art and design | The Guardian

Edited February 23, 2023 by scarp15
typo

[jetstream]

1 hour ago, scarp15 said:

many of whom were sent off to harsh and impoverished lives in Canada, North America,

Im glad to say that the Scottish people here, that I know also love and respect the land and water. Life was harsh here for any rural family years ago but the Scots that came are now well off and are thriving members of the country. They are and continue to be, a very welcome addition.

Great link Iain

[saac]

3 hours ago, scarp15 said:

Here is a fascinating article featuring an exhibition on rural Scottish communities in the 1930's, a collection by female photographers. Worth noting that the Scottish Highlands became significantly depopulated, entire communities forcibly evicted many of whom were sent off to harsh and impoverished lives in Canada, North America, others to eke out a living forming coastal communities or else go to the emerging slums of Glasgow and the fledgling industries through the 18th and into the early 19th centuries. I have encountered numerous ruined croft communities, the evictions particularly severe on Skye, Knoydart, Sutherland. The empty glens of today once had thriving communities, that made way for sheep.  

‘A one-woman job’: early 20th century Scotland – in pictures | Art and design | The Guardian

That is indeed Scotland's story, and a real source of heartache , immortalized in song, poetry, myth and tradition as Scots do best. The Highland clearances , and particularly the government's actions following the 1745 uprising would be judged by very different standards today.  I am pleased to say that this history has been returned to the Scottish school curriculum and given the prominence it deserves. So forget the "disneyfication" of Scotland as portrayed by the likes of Outlander - the reality is somewhat more grim.  But you know what, times have changed and we have moved on just a tad - now in 21 century Scotland it is  not uncommon even to hear a McDonald talking to a Campbell. Some even rumour they have seen each buy the other a drink  

jetsream, you will no doubt be aware of fellow Scott, John Muir; his  legacy is certainly writ large across the North American wilderness. He  referred to his journey there as an encounter with the "sublime".  I'm an active member of the John Muir trust and spent 3 weeks of my summer holidays last year repairing damage around the mountain paths and lowland ways around Ben Lawers. The trust membership are a wonderful bunch of people with amazing craft and conservation  skills - I'm looking forward to this year's gig. 

One of the problems we have here in Scotland is of course scale - Canada as you know is approximately 4 orders of magnitude larger than Scotland - I would not be surprised if you could not fit our wild places into the Banff National Park    The problem that this population density brings to the land is self-evident at the likes of  Ben Nevis (Scotland's highest mountain -  quite wee by Canadian standards). I'll dig out a photograph of Ben Nevis in the summer season - you will see a motorway of humanity snaking up the mountain paths all heal to toe. Nothing sublime there, not that John Muir would recognise anyway. Oh that we could have the space of Canada, we would have room enough for all manner or re wilding,; our national animal is the unicorn  On a more serious note, with close to double the population of Canada in the UK, Scotland's wee land mass is getting well trodden and hammered and that is the problem. On the positive side, I guess if damage was not being done I would not have the fun of working with the John Muir Trust each summer !

Jim 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by saac

[scarp15]

Certainly the work that John Muir Trust has undertaken as custodians to part of Knoydart and the Rough Bounds (as well as all their estates) is very commendable. It is quite a few years since I had last been to this part of Scotland, which definitely has a sense of wildness, but yes it can oft be overlooked that this remote mountainous peninsula was once home to many communities, that were forcefully evicted, some of the crofts still etched into the landscape.

[jetstream]

33 minutes ago, saac said:

now in 21 century Scotland it is  not uncommon even to hear a McDonald talking to a Campbell.

This is good as I have friends with both last names lol All that is forgotten here as far as I know.

 

34 minutes ago, saac said:

I'm an active member of the John Muir trust and spent 3 weeks of my summer holidays last year repairing damage around the mountain paths and lowland ways around Ben Lawers

Excellent!

We all watch things around here, just residents and sportsmen/women and offer kindly reminders about the etiquette to some if need be.

I was hoping to visit there someday, but not if tourists are frowned on.  The old buildings amaze me but my real interest is in seeing rural Scotland.

[saac]

7 hours ago, scarp15 said:

Skye's Old Man of Storr had always been popular.

Sadly not so.  Historically no where close to the 200,000 plus visitor figures we see today hence the level of damage;  you can hear that path groaning under that footfall.  But then that is Skye's story now isn't it.  Pre the bridge, when a trip to Skye really meant going "over the the sea" , the Old Man was a haven of peace.  The repair work is long overdue and welcome given the amount of damage that was happening, last year's damage  was dreadful, the path and surrounding network degraded so quickly under the pressure.  I just hope they have had the foresight to make sure they have a budget line in for year on year repair and remediation work -  this problem is not going away. 

Jim  

Edited February 23, 2023 by saac

[saac]

35 minutes ago, scarp15 said:

Certainly the work that John Muir Trust has undertaken as custodians to part of Knoydart and the Rough Bounds (as well as all their estates) is very commendable. It is quite a few years since I had last been to this part of Scotland, which definitely has a sense of wildness, but yes it can oft be overlooked that this remote mountainous peninsula was once home to many communities, that were forcefully evicted, some of the crofts still etched into the landscape.

All part of the wonderful tapestry that makes Scotland the most beautiful place on the planet - but then I am biased. Go further North and you can marvel at built structures which are thought to be the oldest in the Britain isles predating Stonehenge by some margin. Just don't blog about it or put up a load of selfies or you will invite the hordes who will come and spoil what they came to see  

Re the John Muir trust , get active, get volunteering  

Jim

Edited February 23, 2023 by saac

[saac]

25 minutes ago, jetstream said:

This is good as I have friends with both last names lol All that is forgotten here as far as I know.

 

Excellent!

We all watch things around here, just residents and sportsmen/women and offer kindly reminders about the etiquette to some if need be.

I was hoping to visit there someday, but not if tourists are frowned on.  The old buildings amaze me but my real interest is in seeing rural Scotland.

Tourists are not frowned upon jetsream! The lack of coordinated active tourist management as practiced in some Canadian and North American National parks is .  Only seems fair to protect the environment from our worst excesses.  So get yourself over the pond and come and see my home land - you will enjoy it and perhaps recognise some of Canada in miniature.  

Jim 

Edited February 23, 2023 by saac

[jetstream]

Just now, saac said:

Tourists are not frowned upon jetsream! The lack of coordinated active tourist management as practiced in some Canadian and North American National parks is .  ONly seems fair to protect the environment from our worst excesses. 

Jim 

I could come over there, camp and enjoy the outdoors- and when gone you wouldnt even know I was there.

 

[scarp15]

11 minutes ago, saac said:

Sadly not so.  Historically no where close to the 200,00 plus visitor figures we see today; you can hear that path groaning under that footfall.  But then that is Skye's story now isn't it.  Pre the bridge, when a trip to Skye really meant going "over the the sea" , the Old Man was a haven of peace.  The repair work is long overdue and welcome given the amount of damage that was happening, last year's damage  was dreadful, the path and surrounding network degraded so quickly under the pressure.  I just hope they have had the foresight to make sure they have a budget line in for year on year repair and remediation work -  this problem is not going away. 

Jim  

Hmm yes actually it was probably more like the late 80's when we did that Trotternish ridge, of course the ridge itself we did not encounter anyone, Quiraing we had to ourselves but the car park below the Old Man was busy. Yep indeed it was the ferry back then. I had only been back a couple of times that involved the bridge, it is far too easy. We used to go on two week family holidays every year to Isle of Raasay via Skye, which was a real culture shock growing up in Blackpool. I remember the fishing (and swimming) was excellent, the beaches and hill walking was great, also exploring some of the old dwellings plus first experience of midges. The Island had just been connected with electricity (mid 70's), then back on Skye, like everywhere else in that part of Scotland, on Sundays - nothing was open. Things have moved on then in many ways.

 

11 minutes ago, saac said:

All part of the wonderful tapestry that makes Scotland the most beautiful place on the planet - but then I am biased. Go further North and you can marvel at built structures which are thought to be the oldest in the Britain isles predating Stonehenge by some margin. Just don't blog about it or put up a load of selfies or you will invite the hordes who will come and spoil what they came to see  

Re the John Muir trust , get active, get volunteering  

Jim

Yes it is often local knowledge that indicates certain pre-history structures. We did a holiday on Mull a few years ago, an Island I had visited a few times and is not untypical for there being many such hidden Neolithic sites. There was a case of a Neolithic burial cairn a couple of years ago, that was tragically dug up by a farmer on Skye, who was quite rightly prosecuted. Until it became news worthy headlines, this was not widely known about anyhow.

[saac]

7 hours ago, scarp15 said:

 

 

Yes this practice is appalling Gerry. It is now meant to be illegal concerning heather moorland burning where there is shallow peat, realistically there should be a wholesale ban.

Not sure what the code is in England but that is not technically correct here in Scotland. The strictures on heather burning are controlled by legislation enacted by Holyrood under the "Muirburn Code". This places certain restrictions but does not prescribe it.  And as you know, the science behind the environmental impact is inconclusive, there being both detrimental effects as well as beneficial effects. It is an ancient practice encountered the globe over.  Indeed, recent moor fires wrought by global warming may call for more controlled burns as preventative measures. 

Jim 

[saac]

6 minutes ago, jetstream said:

I could come over there, camp and enjoy the outdoors- and when gone you wouldnt even know I was there.

 

Well that would be a real shame. We would at least hope you would spend some of your hard earned Canadian dollars  

Jim 

[saac]

8 minutes ago, scarp15 said:

Yes it is often local knowledge that indicates certain pre-history structures. We did a holiday on Mull a few years ago, an Island I had visited a few times and is not untypical for there being many such hidden Neolithic sites. There was a case of a Neolithic burial cairn a couple of years ago, that was tragically dug up by a farmer on Skye, who was quite rightly prosecuted. Until it became news worthy headlines, this was not widely known about anyhow.

The Stenness Circle stones are pretty well documented - well worth the effort to visit, I commend them to you as I do Orkney itself. 

Jim 
 

https://www.historicenvironment.scot/visit-a-place/places/stones-of-stenness-circle-and-henge/

[scarp15]

1 minute ago, saac said:

Not sure what the code is in England but that is not technically correct here in Scotland. The strictures on heather burning are controlled by legislation enacted by Holyrood under the "Muirburn Code". This places certain restrictions but does not prescribe it.  And as you know, the science behind the environmental impact is inconclusive, there being both detrimental effects as well as beneficial effects. It is an ancient practice encountered the globe over.  Indeed, recent moor fires wrought by global warming may call for more controlled burns as preventative measures. 

Jim 

Not really any benefits, it is to encourage new seedlings to grow for the grouse, which however if left naturally would probably regenerate at a more natural slower pace. Unfortunately the practice of Muirburn is simply not natural to create patchworks across the hills detrimental to all native species favouring only grouse. There is increasing concern from local communities regarding smoke. There are also investigations regarding certain estates that still are suspected for the persecution of  birds of Prey particularly Hen Harries that feed on grouse. A game keeper had recently I believe been prosecuted for such an offence, but it is the estate owners that bear ultimate responsibility. No I am adamantly not in favour of grouse moors including the Royal Estates, they are a thing of the past and should go to be replaced by wild moors, not managed for commercial shooting purposes.  

[saac]

3 minutes ago, scarp15 said:

Not really any benefits, it is to encourage new seedlings to grow for the grouse, which however if left naturally would probably regenerate at a more natural slower pace. Unfortunately the practice of Muirburn is simply not natural to create patchworks across the hills detrimental to all native species favouring only grouse. 

Of course it is not natural it is a human activity, farming itself is not natural, land management is not natural !  What it certainly is not, is illegal, certainly not in Scotland anyway. There are also clear benefits as found by the generations and cultures throughout human history who practice grass land burning since the dawn of our agricultural history.  Sure, pressure groups of many persuasions will frame their own narrative, but Muirburn is not illegal, and as I said I can see it being used to greater effect to combat wildfire break out with our changing climate.  California, northern Italy may well benefit as they seem particularly hit by wildfire during the summer season now.  

Jim 

[saac]

Here you go @jetstream, do you ever see anything like this on your trails in Canada.  Ben Nevis in the summer -  really peaceful way to commune with nature  

Ben Nevis Motorway

Jim 

[scarp15]

13 minutes ago, saac said:

Of course it is not natural it is a human activity, farming itself is not natural, land management is not natural !  What it certainly is not, is illegal, certainly not in Scotland anyway. There are also clear benefits as found by the generations and cultures throughout human history who practice grass land burning since the dawn of our agricultural history.  Sure, pressure groups of many persuasions will frame their own narrative, but Muirburn is not illegal, and as I said I can see it being used to greater effect to combat wildfire break out with our changing climate.  California, northern Italy may well benefit as they seem particularly hit by wildfire during the summer season now.  

Jim 

There ought to be no burning taking place on these upland moors. Nature conservation would return these uplands back into active blanket bog and heather heaths, harbouring a variety of plants such as sphagnum mosses, Cloudberry, bog asphodel and cotton grasses. They will be havens to a variety of insect life and invertebrates. Then Skylark, Stonechat Meadow Pipet, numerous species of butterfly and moth, of course for red grouse, though also merlin and buzzards. Conservation work involves partially decayed saturated vegetation into brash mats for retaining the peat bogs. Storing carbon and absorbing water during periods of heavy rain fall. Grouse moors are the complete opposite to this they are dried out deserts and are incomparable with a conserved natural moorland. 

[saac]

6 minutes ago, scarp15 said:

There ought to be no burning taking place on these upland moors. Nature conservation would return these uplands back into active blanket bog and heather heaths, harbouring a variety of plants such as sphagnum mosses, Cloudberry, bog asphodel and cotton grasses. They will be havens to a variety of insect life and invertebrates. Then Skylark, Stonechat Meadow Pipet, numerous species of butterfly and moth, of course for red grouse, though also merlin and buzzards. Conservation work involves partially decayed saturated vegetation into brash mats for retaining the peat bogs. Storing carbon and absorbing water during periods of heavy rain fall. Grouse moors are the complete opposite to this they are dried out deserts and are incomparable with a conserved natural moorland. 

Well that is a different topic altogether which I think you have particular views on and I recognise there are also different opinions on the subject.   Ultimately land management  regulation is the type of thing I guess for the politicians in Holyrood to legislate  -  between them and the electorate.  It is not my concern, my concern is over tourism and the need for active management strategies. 

Jim 

 

 

[scarp15]

24 minutes ago, saac said:

Here you go @jetstream, do you ever see anything like this on your trails in Canada.  Ben Nevis in the summer -  really peaceful way to commune with nature  

Ben Nevis Motorway

Jim 

I see a bunch of people enjoying themselves, exercising and gaining some views. That photographer was clearly waiting for a photo opportunity to sensationalise. Yes the tourist path up the Ben can get busy and is rather tedious, been there done that years ago. It is associated with many odd stories such as a group hauling a piano up there (for charity), a car - was that in the 1920's?. The path would had originally been conceived for the weather station. As you will well know the more intrepid route for experienced walkers and with a relative head for heights is via Carn Dearg, a totally different experience. 

[scarp15]

3 minutes ago, saac said:

Well that is a different topic altogether which I think you have particular views on and I recognise there are also different opinions on the subject.   Ultimately land management  regulation is the type of thing I guess for the politicians in Holyrood to legislate  -  between them and the electorate.  It is not my concern, my concern is over tourism and the need for active management strategies. 

Jim 

 

 

This is not presenting a particular view more so informed objective facts based on comparisons. Wildmoor conservation is gaining momentum, most recently with the community buyout at Langholm in the Scottish Borders for a former grouse moor that is to be restored.

Not far from myself is on the Northumberland Scottish border is Whitelee Moor and which I enjoy to visit.

https://www.nwt.org.uk/nature-reserves/whitelee-moor

[saac]

1 minute ago, scarp15 said:

I see a bunch of people enjoying themselves, exercising and gaining some views. That photographer was clearly waiting for a photo opportunity to sensationalise. Yes the tourist path up the Ben can get busy and is rather tedious, been there done that years ago. It is associated with many odd stories such as a group hauling a piano up there (for charity), a car - was that in the 1920's?. The path would had originally been conceived for the weather station. As you will well know the more intrepid route for experienced walkers and with a relative head for heights is via Carn Dearg, a totally different experience. 

Funny I see a bunch of people that really should be enjoying themselves more!.  We clearly have very different ideas and expectation on hill walking and what the Scottish hills have to offer if you honestly believe that is fun.   As for the photographer waiting  for their moment - sure that must be what happened!.  The path by the way pre dates the weather station,  somewhat - these are ancient paths !!!.  As for the piano story - relevance!   Together with any of the other multiple routes up "the Ben", I have no idea how or why that is relevant. Scarp , we certainly have different expectations on hillwalking on the Scottish hills.  I think that explains the gulf that exists between our views lol. I think we are further apart than when we started - be a boring world would it not if we all agreed.  Enjoy the hills my friend, I'll enjoy them my way  

Jim