Almost Ready For a 5" Frac!

[Sunshine]

Hello! and thanks for the replies in advance, I am ready to pull the trigger on a larger refractor but I find myself as most of us do, in an ocean of options and analysis paralysis. 😅 As many of you know I currently have just one refractor but it is a charmer, the TSA-102 leaves me wanting nothing more when it comes to 4" refractors but I am only human and I would love some more photons. This is where it gets tricky, I have made a hard decision about what type I would like (triplet vs doublet) and the winner is a doublet but it must be a good one, one which will impress as I have been spoiled. My reasons in favour of a doublet are weight, cool down time, not for imaging (main reason) and price,  There are many stellar doublets out there, some which can fool one into believing they are looking through an APO. There are several choices I have entertained within my budget  of around 4K CAD but one which really stands out to me is the Stellarvue SVX127D, it seems to be a great doublet for planetary, Lunar, and double stars which happen to be the targets I spend the vast majority of my time on. Can anyone suggest other options I may be missing in this price range or lower? considering my viewing habits, I am sure there are many more out there and I would love to hear from fellow forum friends who have similar equipment and observing routines.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Sunshine

[RobertI]

An exciting problem to have! 🙂A couple of questions - (1) are you keeping the TSA-102 or is the new scope a replacement? (2) what type of object/observing are you hoping to improve?

[Sunshine]

19 minutes ago, RobertI said:

(1) are you keeping the TSA-102 or is the new scope a replacement? (2) what type of object/observing are you hoping to improve?

Good questions, I have a feeling that answering number two will lead into my getting a schooling? 😂 I intend to keep the 102 BUT! I cannot say what would happen IF a larger premium doublet were to wow me enough that it is the only one I reach for. I'm just spit balling here but I would assume that an extra 20-30 mm of grasp is substantial, especially if were talking about a premium doublet. UHH, I just want because I want and at the moment I can have, don't corner me because I will cry 🤣 I am aware of how good my 102 is but when we get an itch, we must scratch. If I found an FS128 I would feel like a god, but there aren't many around.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Sunshine

[mikeDnight]

You could always keep your eye out for a second hand FS128. Or of course a TSA120. You are a Tak fan after all.

I have to admit that 5" is a magical aperture where good refractors are concerned, but as the pic's below show, they can be hefty beasts that require a substantial mount to do them true justice. I feel there is a more obvious jump in performance between a 4" to 5" than between a 5" to 6".

My FS128 pier mounted on a Losmandy GM8 in my garden. The mount was covered with a canvas bag when not in use, and over the years the electronics never got wet. A permanent pier massively reduces the need for treking back and forth during set-up.

FS128 (2006)

 

Field Trip to Huddersfield Astro Society with my FS128 on a Celestron/Losmandy G11 and field tripod, along with my son Daniel with his ST102 and Floppy Bear. (Transit of Venus 2004).

Here's a scope that will impress, and very manageable, though it still needs a strong mount. My Equinox 120ED mounted on a Hercules Helix Altazimuth Fork at the Astronomy Centre Toddmorden. (2010 ish?)

 

Another impressive option is the Meade 127 triplet. This is a beast much like the 128 in its hunger for a strong, stable mount. This one belonged to my late friend Phil, and again a permanent pier mounting really benefited this scope. Interestingly, when attached to a pier, a Vixen GP would carry it solidly. (2011).

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by mikeDnight

[JeremyS]

@Sunshine since you currently have a TSA 102, probably the finest 4-inch refractor around, I’d be very circumspect about the next step up.  I suspect the only two refractors that are more readily available that could match your prior experience are the TSA 120 and the FS 128. The TOA 130 Would be best of all but it’s extremely heavy, so I think not a contender. In any case, I would stick with Japanese or US optics.

Ca 20 years ago, when the FS 102 was my main scope, I went for a Borg 125ED. What an error! 
 

I’ve no experience of the Stellarvue, so cannot comment.

Edited December 28, 2022 by JeremyS

[Mr Spock]

TS do a nice 125mm FPL53 doublet. Not quite a Tak, but still very good and less than half the price 😜

The Stellarview triplets look very similar to the TS-Photoline equivalent - same source I wonder?

[Sunshine]

Though I have not decided yet on any particular doublet, the Stellarvue does have very favorable reviews and it seems they grind their own lenses in house. Below is a sky and telescope video of their process for those who are interested, I would love to hear back and forth opinions on their process by optical guru’s here on SGL.

 

[MalcolmM]

A curved ball! Does it have to be a refractor? And I fully understand if it does. I chose a Mewlon in order to get more photons. It's a stunning scope, but gotta admit it does not do pinpoint stars like a refractor. What it does have is portability and ease of use (thanks to the finder @JeremyS handle ) and definitely a step up in planetary/lunar detail from 100mm. The extra light gathering is also very obvious. It's also less of an outlay than a 5" refractor. But it's not a refractor 🙁

Malcolm 

[F15Rules]

I think Mike nailed it with his opinion that "I feel there is a more obvious jump in performance between a 4" to 5" than between a 5" to 6".

In case it's of any interest to @Sunshine, I posted my thoughts below in answer to a thread asking the question "if money was no object (ie if you had unlimited budget), what 4" or 5" quality refractor would you buy?:

"IMHO it depends whether you mean by "money no object" a new or used scope..

If new, I'd probably go for Tak, but would definitely also consider TEC, Pentax (if they were still available) or maybe a TV127 (is it still available?

I couldn't consider Astro Physics as I won't live long enough to get up their waiting list!🤦. I couldn't in good conscience contemplate an Lzos scope now either.

If buying used, at 4" aperture I'd go for a Vixen, whether ED or SD103s, or the classic FL102 without hesitation: they are optically right up there with Tak or anything else, but they don't for some reason hold their used value like Taks do, so they make fabulous used buys. Another pair of great used  "dark horses" are the Celestron and Skywatcher  ED100 F9 doublets..superb optical performance with budget mechanics at an affordable price. I've owned both of these scopes and was very pleased with them.

At 5" aperture, I'm lucky enough to have one of the best, my lovely Tak FS128..they are however very rare in the UK (I know of 3 others, and not cheap). Other great used 5" choices could be:

- Tak TSA 120..ok, not quite 5" but an 8-10mm difference wouldn't probably be significant under most nights' skies. Now discontinued I believe, but come up used now and again.

- Astro Physics Starfire.. not common though and very expensive.

 - Vixen SS130 again very rare, but I've seen a couple under £1600 in the past.

- D&G 5" F12 or F15 achromats..truly amazing scopes, with almost Apo like correction especially at F15. But again not common and really need a pier or pillar type permanent mounting due to their size and length.

-Meade ED127 doublet. A bit left field, these, and not common, but by all accounts excellent performers and I've seen them for sale used well under £1000.

-APM are also offering some superb 150mm F8 ED doublets (a friend of mine has one and loves it)..not sure if they do a 5" version though.

- I should also include the various Skywatcher 120ED doublets..I've owned 2, an Equinox and a DS Pro: to be honest, I didn't get on with them myself, but I know that many on SGL have them or have had them, and loved them, so I was probably either unlucky or unfair with mine. The Equinox had a lovely build quality too. They certainly represent great value for money as a used proposition."

HTH..

Dave😊

 

 

[Sunshine]

5 minutes ago, F15Rules said:

I think Mike nailed it with his opinion that "I feel there is a more obvious jump in performance between a 4" to 5" than between a 5" to 6".

In case it's of any interest to @Sunshine, I posted my thoughts below in answer to a thread asking the question "if money was no object (ie if you had unlimited budget), what 4" or 5" quality refractor would you buy?:

"IMHO it depends whether you mean by "money no object" a new or used scope..

If new, I'd probably go for Tak, but would definitely also consider TEC, Pentax (if they were still available) or maybe a TV127 (is it still available?

I couldn't consider Astro Physics as I won't live long enough to get up their waiting list!🤦. I couldn't in good conscience contemplate an Lzos scope now either.

If buying used, at 4" aperture I'd go for a Vixen, whether ED or SD103s, or the classic FL102 without hesitation: they are optically right up there with Tak or anything else, but they don't for some reason hold their used value like Taks do, so they make fabulous used buys. Another pair of great used  "dark horses" are the Celestron and Skywatcher  ED100 F9 doublets..superb optical performance with budget mechanics at an affordable price. I've owned both of these scopes and was very pleased with them.

At 5" aperture, I'm lucky enough to have one of the best, my lovely Tak FS128..they are however very rare in the UK (I know of 3 others, and not cheap). Other great used 5" choices could be:

- Tak TSA 120..ok, not quite 5" but an 8-10mm difference wouldn't probably be significant under most nights' skies. Now discontinued I believe, but come up used now and again.

- Astro Physics Starfire.. not common though and very expensive.

 - Vixen SS130 again very rare, but I've seen a couple under £1600 in the past.

- D&G 5" F12 or F15 achromats..truly amazing scopes, with almost Apo like correction especially at F15. But again not common and really need a pier or pillar type permanent mounting due to their size and length.

-Meade ED127 doublet. A bit left field, these, and not common, but by all accounts excellent performers and I've seen them for sale used well under £1000.

-APM are also offering some superb 150mm F8 ED doublets (a friend of mine has one and loves it)..not sure if they do a 5" version though.

- I should also include the various Skywatcher 120ED doublets..I've owned 2, an Equinox and a DS Pro: to be honest, I didn't get on with them myself, but I know that many on SGL have them or have had them, and loved them, so I was probably either unlucky or unfair with mine. The Equinox had a lovely build quality too. They certainly represent great value for money as a used proposition."

HTH..

Dave😊

 

 

Fantastic advice! thanks, since I am in no hurry, well who am I kidding yes I am! but I will exercise patience and see what I find out there. God knows with my luck if I rush, the day after I purchase something an FS128 will pop up and I’ll have to run my head through a wall lol.

[Sunshine]

3 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

You could always keep your eye out for a second hand FS128. Or of course a TSA120. You are a Tak fan after all.

I have to admit that 5" is a magical aperture where good refractors are concerned, but as the pic's below show, they can be hefty beasts that require a substantial mount to do them true justice. I feel there is a more obvious jump in performance between a 4" to 5" than between a 5" to 6".

My FS128 pier mounted on a Losmandy GM8 in my garden. The mount was covered with a canvas bag when not in use, and over the years the electronics never got wet. A permanent pier massively reduces the need for treking back and forth during set-up.

FS128 (2006)

 

Field Trip to Huddersfield Astro Society with my FS128 on a Celestron/Losmandy G11 and field tripod, along with my son Daniel with his ST102 and Floppy Bear. (Transit of Venus 2004).

Here's a scope that will impress, and very manageable, though it still needs a strong mount. My Equinox 120ED mounted on a Hercules Helix Altazimuth Fork at the Astronomy Centre Toddmorden. (2010 ish?)

 

Another impressive option is the Meade 127 triplet. This is a beast much like the 128 in its hunger for a strong, stable mount. This one belonged to my late friend Phil, and again a permanent pier mounting really benefited this scope. Interestingly, when attached to a pier, a Vixen GO would carry it solidly. (2011).

 

 

 

That FS128 looks fearfully large from that angle in the first photo, thank goodness I have an alt-az mount capable of 40lbs on just one side, what does the FS128 weigh? (I could easily look it up but then what are forums for?)

Edited December 28, 2022 by Sunshine

[F15Rules]

The FS128 OTA weighs just 7.5kg. with finder, diagonal and large 2" eyepiece you're looking at c 9-9.5kg. Data below is from my FS128 manual:

Takahashi FS-128

Aperture 128mm

Focal Length 1040mm

Focal Ratio F8.1

Tube Length 1176mm

Weight 7.5Kg

The tube is, like all FS scopes, is oversized, but lightweight. It's tube diameter is 145mm (almost 6"), and c165mm at the dewshield.

If you haven't already seen it, this is a great review of the FS128 done some years ago in the UK by Roger Vine:

http://scopeviews.co.uk/TakFS128.htm

Hope that helps😊

Dave

[Telescope40]

Hi. The review from Roger Vine will not help matters - just kidding !! 🤣🤣

John

[Sunshine]

11 minutes ago, F15Rules said:

The FS128 OTA weighs just 7.5kg. with finder, diagonal and large 2" eyepiece you're looking at c 9-9.5kg. Data below is from my FS128 manual:

Takahashi FS-128

Aperture 128mm

Focal Length 1040mm

Focal Ratio F8.1

Tube Length 1176mm

Weight 7.5Kg

The tube is, like all FS scopes, is oversized, but lightweight. It's tube diameter is 145mm (almost 6"), and c165mm at the dewshield.

If you haven't already seen it, this is a great review of the FS128 done some years ago in the UK by Roger Vine:

http://scopeviews.co.uk/TakFS128.htm

Hope that helps😊

Dave

Thank you! I trust Roger Vine like I trust my wif...uh mom! he really knows his stuff.

[dweller25]

Did someone say FS128 🤣🤣🤣🤣😈😈😈

[Sunshine]

51 minutes ago, dweller25 said:

Did someone say FS128 🤣🤣🤣🤣😈😈😈

It seems both yourself and F15Rules own the only two FS128's ever produced.🙄

[Telescope40]

Maybe not !!??  I'm not helping. Apologies.  John 

[F15Rules]

That's 3 of the 4 that I know of in the UK..and one more I know of in Australia. But there are quite a few in the US, I believe..

Dave 😊

[Saganite]

-APM are also offering some superb 150mm F8 ED doublets (a friend of mine has one and loves it)..not sure if they do a 5" version though.

 

There is also the APM ED 140, very highly regarded and worth consideration.  I was very impressed with what I read about it, but the 152 ED became available  first.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Saganite

[dweller25]

@Sunshine If I did not have the FS128 then the TSA120 Would be a no brainer 🙂

[Sunshine]

3 hours ago, Saganite said:

There is also the APM ED 140, very highly regarded and worth consideration.  I was very impressed with what I read about it, but the 152 ED became available  first.

This APM 140 ED doublet is interesting, I have read all about it and it does seem impressive from a price vs aperture ratio, I have seen one in the flesh but haven’t looked through it.

[dweller25]

@Sunshine These scopes are getting very good reviews….. and it’s a doublet 

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p10133_TS-Optics-Doublet-SD-APO-125-mm-f-7-8---FPL-53---Lanthanum-objective.html

[wookie1965]

The weight of my 5" was the reason I sold it the EQ5 could not cope with it it was a bit over the maximum payload. It was heavier than the 200p it came with and that was precurious. 

[AMcD]

I am extremely pleased with the imaging performance of my TS Optics Photo Line 130mm F7 FPL53 Triplet Apo, that I picked up second hand. 

[Sunshine]

26 minutes ago, dweller25 said:

@Sunshine These scopes are getting very good reviews….. and it’s a doublet 

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p10133_TS-Optics-Doublet-SD-APO-125-mm-f-7-8---FPL-53---Lanthanum-objective.html

That does seem like a gem! I especially like the 975mm FL for both visual and planetary imaging, the longer the better. Question is, are these available in North America? or I guess if I was to decide on this scope i would order straight from UK and the price seems irresistible.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Sunshine