Recommended a budget 1.25 eyepiece

[great_bear]

I’d recommend this - the 24mm SWA  (£9 over budget, but close enough).

I have the old Meade version and I use it in all my scopes - it gets a LOT of use.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/explore-scientific-eyepieces/explore-scientific-68-degree-series-eyepieces.html

[Louis D]

That's at least $85 cheaper than buying it here in the US.  Add in the fact that sales tax isn't collected by FLO, and the deal gets even better.

[great_bear]

10 hours ago, Louis D said:

Add in the fact that sales tax isn't collected by FLO

Oh, it is for those of us in the UK - it's just that by law, UK web sites have to show prices with the sales tax ("VAT" at 20%) already baked in.
(typically, the final sales invoice will break out the tax separately to make it clear that qualifying businesses can claim it back)

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, great_bear said:

Oh, it is for those of us in the UK - it's just that by law, UK web sites have to show prices with the sales tax ("VAT" at 20%) already baked in.
(typically, the final sales invoice will break out the tax separately to make it clear that qualifying businesses can claim it back)

I'm pretty sure if folks in the UK buy from overseas, someone from the government collects VAT upon arrival of your item in your country because it's a fixed nationwide tax similar to tariffs.  That doesn't happen in the US.  Americans are expected to keep track of sales for which no sales tax was collected and submit use tax instead on their own to their state and local governments since sales tax is not a nationwide tax.  That pretty much never happens, though.  It would cost too much in labor and overhead to create the government bureaucracy in every state and local taxing entity to collect the small amount due since the vast majority of Americans buy goods within the US.  The exception are online marketplaces like Amazon and ebay which do collect sales tax for sales into the US on behalf of overseas sellers ever since the 2018 US Supreme Court ruling South Dakota v. Wayfair.  By contrast, European countries are now requiring overseas sellers, not just online marketplaces, to collect and remit VAT on behalf of customers, creating a lot of undesired and expensive overhead, so many non-European sellers have simply quit selling into Europe.

[LDW1]

1 hour ago, Louis D said:

I'm pretty sure if folks in the UK buy from overseas, someone from the government collects VAT upon arrival of your item in your country because it's a fixed nationwide tax similar to tariffs.  That doesn't happen in the US.  Americans are expected to keep track of sales for which no sales tax was collected and submit use tax instead on their own to their state and local governments since sales tax is not a nationwide tax.  That pretty much never happens, though.  It would cost too much in labor and overhead to create the government bureaucracy in every state and local taxing entity to collect the small amount due since the vast majority of Americans buy goods within the US.  The exception are online marketplaces like Amazon and ebay which do collect sales tax for sales into the US on behalf of overseas sellers ever since the 2018 US Supreme Court ruling South Dakota v. Wayfair.  By contrast, European countries are now requiring overseas sellers, not just online marketplaces, to collect and remit VAT on behalf of customers, creating a lot of undesired and expensive overhead, so many non-European sellers have simply quit selling into Europe.

Why would most sellers hesitate to sell to Europe, as in Canada the seller shouldn't have to worry or get involved because normally customs does not release the item to the buyer until any accessed sales taxes are paid upon release ? Amazon / eBay is a different story due to their size, their sales volumes. Thats the reason for the customs declaration on the outside of the package clearly identifying the actual cost of the item(s) for tax purposes. All non paid but taxable items are also supposed to be declared at tax time up here in Canada but the amount, the cost of those items have to run into the high tens of thousands before they bother ie an in home seller business not the back and forths like most of us ! When I buy from Agena Astro, B&H, etc. they don't collect my Canadian sales tax, they leave it up to Customs on behalf of my government. If there is tax owing I have to either pick it up at a Canada Post outlet or sometimes pay it with debit machine at my door. Amazon or eBay do collect it through a legal agreement with the government incl. audits.

Edited December 14, 2022 by LDW1

[Louis D]

2 minutes ago, LDW1 said:

Why would most sellers hesitate to sell to Europe, as in Canada the seller shouldn't have to worry or get involved because normally customs does not release the item to the buyer until any accessed sales taxes are paid upon release ? Amazon / eBay is a different story due to their size, their sales volumes. Thats the reason for the customs declaration on the outside of the package clearly identifying the actual cost of the item(s) for tax purposes. All non paid but taxable items are also supposed to be declared at tax time up here in Canada but the amount, the cost of those items have to run into the high tens of thousands before they bother ie an in home seller business not the back and forths like most of us ! When I buy from Agena Astro, B&H, etc. they don't collect my Canadian sales tax, they leave it up to Customs on behalf of my government. Amazon or eBay do through a legal agreement with the government incl. audits.

Ask @Don Pensack why he quit selling into Europe.  I may be mistaken, but I recall reading a post of his where he decided the cost and overhead of VAT collection for EU sales to be too much for too little benefit in additional sales over US-only sales.  He may still sell into Canada.

[LDW1]

1 minute ago, Louis D said:

Ask @Don Pensack why he quit selling into Europe.  I may be mistaken, but I recall reading a post of his where he decided the cost and overhead of VAT collection for EU sales to be too much for too little benefit in additional sales over US-only sales.  He may still sell into Canada.

With all the thousands of $'s in dealings I have had over many years I find it very hard to believe there is much of a problem ! Some are just to ...... to do the declaration paper work, many times. It is pretty smooth unless the proper declaration is not completely detailed for customs purposes, that is where the final tax owing assessment is made ' at customs ', not by the seller.

[LDW1]

7 minutes ago, Louis D said:

Ask @Don Pensack why he quit selling into Europe.  I may be mistaken, but I recall reading a post of his where he decided the cost and overhead of VAT collection for EU sales to be too much for too little benefit in additional sales over US-only sales.  He may still sell into Canada.

Don should not be authorized by any government in the world to collect any tax on their behalf, governments keep pretty tight controls on who collects what, you would have to be a huge registered company ie COSTCO, Amazon, eBay, etc.,etc.

[LDW1]

10 minutes ago, Louis D said:

Ask @Don Pensack why he quit selling into Europe.  I may be mistaken, but I recall reading a post of his where he decided the cost and overhead of VAT collection for EU sales to be too much for too little benefit in additional sales over US-only sales.  He may still sell into Canada.

All that should happen is that you pay the dealer their price, you pay the ship. cost at the same time and then anything else owing is paid at the other end before your goods are released ! Never had a non smooth transaction yet. Gary Russell will only ship his eps to a US address because of his isolated location and the travel required to fill out the declarations but I have it sent to a friend in Wisconsin and from there no problems.

[Steve]

Gentlemen, the OP appears to live in Bolton UK (not Bolton Massachusetts or Bolton Canada) and is looking for eyepiece recommendations. 

Please stay on topic 🙂

[LDW1]

32 minutes ago, Steve said:

Gentlemen, the OP appears to live in Bolton UK (not Bolton Massachusetts or Bolton Canada) and is looking for eyepiece recommendations. 

Please stay on topic 🙂

You are absolutely correct !  Just trying to keep the facts of that huge deviation accurate when it unfortunately happens and could affect the OP's search. 

[Don Pensack]

8 hours ago, Louis D said:

I'm pretty sure if folks in the UK buy from overseas, someone from the government collects VAT upon arrival of your item in your country because it's a fixed nationwide tax similar to tariffs.  That doesn't happen in the US.  Americans are expected to keep track of sales for which no sales tax was collected and submit use tax instead on their own to their state and local governments since sales tax is not a nationwide tax.  That pretty much never happens, though.  It would cost too much in labor and overhead to create the government bureaucracy in every state and local taxing entity to collect the small amount due since the vast majority of Americans buy goods within the US.  The exception are online marketplaces like Amazon and ebay which do collect sales tax for sales into the US on behalf of overseas sellers ever since the 2018 US Supreme Court ruling South Dakota v. Wayfair.  By contrast, European countries are now requiring overseas sellers, not just online marketplaces, to collect and remit VAT on behalf of customers, creating a lot of undesired and expensive overhead, so many non-European sellers have simply quit selling into Europe.

I'm a case in point.  I no longer sell to the UK or EU.

 

As for eyepieces, if the 50° field is not too narrow, it is hard to beat a Plössl for performance for the pound.

However, focal lengths shorter than 10mm are a significant problem due to small eye relief.

The Vixen SLV takes up the mantle of a 50° eyepiece with long eye relief, but they are not inexpensive.

It is a significant problem to find a widefield with long eye relief that is inexpensive.  Very few exist.

However, some excellent 60° eyepieces are sold that are decent, and that is where I recommend people start upgrading.

 

There are some decent 82° eyepieces from United Optics that aren't too dear, though.

Example: 82° Nirvana eyepieces.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Don Pensack

[great_bear]

It’s basic geometry isn’t it Don?

The maths dictates that a wide apparent field of view with enough of a gap to accommodate spectacles (or just personal preference) will result in big, expensive lenses being required. 

Do you think that one day it will be possible to mass produce high-quality plastic lenses that could match the performance of glass, and bring the cost down?

[Louis D]

Look to camera lenses to see what the future may hold for eyepiece design.  They use many different sorts of dispersion glass types and hybrid glass/resin aspherics.  Perhaps they will trickle down to astro gear.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Louis D

[Louis D]

On 13/12/2022 at 16:24, great_bear said:

I took a S5000 Plossl apart (not the 40) and it wasn’t like that at all on the inside. Are you going by documentation or have you taken a look yourself? 
 

Mine was basically an Erfle variant. 
 

The 26mm would be a mess at F6. It wasn’t that great at F15 to be honest. 
 

However, apart from minor eye-glint, the 20mm and 14mm are essentially perfect in an F15 Mak - I wouldn’t swap them for anything. The glass has a breathtaking coolness to it. I’ve used mine in a WO Binoviewer for several years now, and nothing has beaten them. 
 

interesting to hear they’re back in production. I saw that range and wondered if those might be them redesigned. 

No, I haven't taken mine apart.  It's way too nice sharpness and contrast wise in the central part to do that to it and risk ruining it or getting dust in it.  I was just going by the general consensus online that since it was referred to as a Plossl and contains 5 elements, it's based on the older 5 element "Plossls" or Pseudo-Masuyamas I mentioned.

I put together the following comparison of the 40mm Meade 5000 Plossl with my 38mm Rini MPL which has 5 elements and my 42mm Rini Erfle which has 6 elements.  I don't know that Paul ever disclosed the design of his MPL anywhere besides declaring it has 5 elements.  It was probably his most successful effort.  It is probably two doublets and singlet, with the latter possibly in the center.  He did tell me that the Erfle was 3 achromats.  I'm guessing 50mm binocular objectives or similar.  It was not a very successful design.

The Meade has a 61 degree AFOV as I measured it.  The MPL has 66 degrees and the Erfle has 68 degrees.  Field stop diameters are 42.7mm, 42.4mm, and 46.0mm in the same order.  Measured focal lengths are 40.4mm, 37.1mm, and 40.8mm (same order).  Radial edge magnification distortion is 21.2%, 20.8%, and 47% respectively.  This last one makes me think the Meade and MPL share a common design philosophy since the two distortion amounts are nearly identical.

Clearly, the Meade is probably the best, followed by the MPL and then the Erfle.  Given that the Meade performs closer to the MPL than the Erfle, I always thought of it as a 5 element "Plossl".  The Meade was a good deal for the $50 I paid for it.  I definitely would not pay the $289 for the 40mm ES-62 version.  The 40mm Lacerta ED is a way better deal performance and price wise.

[great_bear]

10 hours ago, Louis D said:

No, I haven't taken mine apart.  It's way too nice sharpness and contrast wise in the central part to do that to it and risk ruining it or getting dust in it.

I’m happy to. 

So I just took the 20mm apart, examined it closely and - whilst we can’t know for sure the curvature of the inner, cemented surfaces, it seems to be - as I said earlier - an Erfle II:

[Don Pensack]

It's more likely the Zeiss Astroplan configuration:

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/307483-plossl/#comment-3362020

or 

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/52439-schematichelp-needed-for-meade-5000-55mm-plossel/?p=682332

[johnnyp]

On 14/12/2022 at 22:04, Don Pensack said:

I'm a case in point.  I no longer sell to the UK or EU.

 

As for eyepieces, if the 50° field is not too narrow, it is hard to beat a Plössl for performance for the pound.

However, focal lengths shorter than 10mm are a significant problem due to small eye relief.

The Vixen SLV takes up the mantle of a 50° eyepiece with long eye relief, but they are not inexpensive.

It is a significant problem to find a widefield with long eye relief that is inexpensive.  Very few exist.

However, some excellent 60° eyepieces are sold that are decent, and that is where I recommend people start upgrading.

 

There are some decent 82° eyepieces from United Optics that aren't too dear, though.

Example: 82° Nirvana eyepieces.

@Don Pensack what would you recommend in the 60° range ? 

[LDW1]

Have a look at the Celestron Xcel-LX line, a great eyepieces for a great prices, for great views !

[Don Pensack]

Low price: BST Starguider ED or the Barsta 58° eyepieces that are very common.

Both are available under many different labels.  FLO has the Starguider EDs.

A little more:  Celestron X-Cel LX or Meade S5000 HD60.  The Meades would only be available used.  FLO has the Celestron X-Cel LX.

High-end in the same apparent field: TeleVue Delite.  Looks like FLO has those too.

 

[johnnyp]

15 minutes ago, Don Pensack said:

Low price: BST Starguider ED or the Barsta 58° eyepieces that are very common.

Both are available under many different labels.  FLO has the Starguider EDs.

A little more:  Celestron X-Cel LX or Meade S5000 HD60.  The Meades would only be available used.  FLO has the Celestron X-Cel LX.

High-end in the same apparent field: TeleVue Delite.  Looks like FLO has those too.

 

@Don Pensack thanks you've been a great help. Obviously very knowledgeable:)