Mini PC vs ZWO ASIAIR

[AndyThilo]

13 hours ago, scotty38 said:

Just nit-picking but NINA doesn't platesolve, it passes that to external tools. If you configure it to use ASTAP with its locally installed databases then plate solving is very quick.

Yes quite right, but still, AA+ is so much a easier and quicker. No messing with ASTAP, downloading databases. For the casual AP’er the Air is a complete solution. 

[scotty38]

2 minutes ago, AndyThilo said:

Yes quite right, but still, AA+ is so much a easier and quicker. No messing with ASTAP, downloading databases. For the casual AP’er the Air is a complete solution. 

Yep wasn't commenting or disagreeing on its ease of use 👍

[powerlord]

Well, my vote is asiair. I have 3 of them. I've tried nina, I've tried astroberry, I've tried windows Kstars, etc.

Yes it ties you to ZWO stuff - which is all good for me as far as I'm concerned - compatibility is king. Happy with that ? go for asiair - it is absolutely great imho.

If you want it 'just to work' - and be easy to use via phone or tablet it is the only option whatever folk tell you about it being 'so easy to use remote desktop with asiair with a tablet' or some such nonsense.

As a beginner, I'd say give it a try - get one second hand - if you don't like it, sell it for what you've bought it. That way, you won't spend countless hours trying to understand something like NINA (and it IS complex - even getting it installed since it's just a hub for all the other bits you need - drivers, plate solving, databases, guiding software, etc, etc). I'm not dissing NINA - it serves a purpose. But it's not 'better' than asiair or 'worse', it is what it is.

I would not consider myself a casual APer - I have an observatory, 2 EQ6R mounts, asi2600s, tons of kit, and I'm imaging every single night I can. But there is literaly only ONE thing that asiair doesn't do now that I need to use a pc/mac for - planetary video imaging. There is not one other thing that I think to myself 'ooo I need X so bad and asiair doesn't have it, I might have to setup nina'.

Yes, the big one you have to decided is 'am i ok with only buying zwo camera' - I mean lets face it its hardly a biggy to buy ZWO EFW and EAFs - there much of a muchness.

frankly I'd say the same for cameras - the same chip is in the competition. Arguably the only reason to go elsewhere is cost which is where the competition competes really. Something I've never found an issue, since ZWO is the market leader, I tend to be able to pick up used or reconditioned (from FLO) cameras at less than the cheaper ones anyway.

Again, each to their own, but it seemed the advice you were getting so far was a bit one sided, so thought I'd post my POV for a bit of balance.

stu

[deanchapman2705]

Wow! This is all really helpful!

I think everything @powerlord said above is exactly how I see this situation. The fact that I don't seem to be too bothered by the potential downsides you guys have been mentioning of moving to an ASIAIR, I think maybe because I'm not experienced enough to have faced them or understand them yet, I can buy one second hand and keep the PC as a backup for when those negatives do get to me I guess.

Just an update on my recent experiences with the PC - long story short, I have been using the previous user's windows account that has NINA all setup and ready to use but I need his windows account password to be able to turn off the password and lock screen when logging in (which I think is a bit too personal to ask for). So I have to connect a monitor, keyboard and mouse to get past this initially to then remote in using TeamViewer on my laptop (after that it's fine). He used Windows 11 Pro on both PC's so they connected easily and didn't have this problem although I don't so only solution would be to log into my Windows account on the telescope PC and set up NINA from scratch... so another reason pushing me to get the ASIAIR. I did manage to get a single frame the other night although it did take nearly an hour and that's not including the EAF and guiding. Yes. it's just my first successful attempt and can only get quicker the more I do this but like I said before, I don't have enough time for this. I have maybe 2hrs a night to image (hence the OSC camera) and half of that was spent setting it up.

I understand the ASIAR may not be absolutely perfect and there will be problems but surely nowhere near as many or as complicated compared to what NINA and the PC have been giving me recently.

So I think that decides it. I will get the ASIAIR. Sorry to go against what the majority of you have said but like @powerlord said,

1 hour ago, powerlord said:

each to their own, but it seemed the advice you were getting so far was a bit one sided

I will be looking out for a second hand one which will probably be hard to find so in the meantime, please do keep posting your thoughts on this in case there is something we haven't discussed.

Again, I wasn't expecting this much help and have learnt a lot from you guys so thank you!

Clear skies,

Dean

[Elp]

1 hour ago, powerlord said:

planetary video imaging

It does (not on the gen 1 though), I did it the other day. They however need to improve the setting controls so you can be a bit more precise on the exposure whether it be micro seconds or milliseconds.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Elp

[ONIKKINEN]

If you want the best bang for your buck, then the Mini-PC has no competition and the Asiair is demoted to marketing junk. You can save up to a 1000£ (maybe a stretch) with a mini-pc compared to the Asiair if comparing the cheapest non ZWO IMX571 camera to the 2600MC.

With a mini-pc: Any software on earth, any combination of kit from any manufacturer, customize to your hearts content to suit your imaging needs whether it be planetary or DSO.

Asiair: Whatever ZWO patches to it and only with ZWO products. No customization outside what ZWO puts into it. Very limited functionality for anything but DSO imaging.

Is the Asiair bad? No. But its not as good as a mini-pc and in my opinion just about every imager will benefit from the mini-pc route compared to the Asiair with the exception being an imager that only wants to do DSO imaging and already has a ZWO cooled cam and a guide cam so they dont have to make purchases based on the Asiair. If someone thinks they cant figure out how to install 3 pieces of software and a couple of drivers then i would say astrophotography is generally not for that person and they are going to have a bad time with the hobby as it is inherently "techie".

[AndyThilo]

7 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

If someone thinks they cant figure out how to install 3 pieces of software and a couple of drivers then i would say astrophotography is generally not for that person and they are going to have a bad time with the hobby as it is inherently "techie".

Or maybe the ASIAir is enabling AP to be less 'techie'. Just because you're not massively computer literate should not stop you from imaging and to say otherwise is ignorant. 

[ONIKKINEN]

1 hour ago, AndyThilo said:

Or maybe the ASIAir is enabling AP to be less 'techie'. Just because you're not massively computer literate should not stop you from imaging and to say otherwise is ignorant. 

I think thats a primarily perceived benefit for the Asiair. In reality its not that difficult to set the mini-pc up so a marginal ease of use benefit for the AAP. Plenty of other things astrophotographers need to figure out so a drop in the ocean of things to learn and set up.

[geeklee]

4 hours ago, powerlord said:

Again, each to their own, but it seemed the advice you were getting so far was a bit one sided, so thought I'd post my POV for a bit of balance.

Well said Stu.  I think there can be an undercurrent of snobbery towards the ASIAIR (which of course everyone will deny 😅).

Ecosystems have their place for some - there are clear advantages (and disadvantages depending on your point of view) 

For the record - I use a mini-PC (I use Voyager or NINA) and an ASIAIR.  I'm a "techie" and I miss not being able to look under the hood on the ASIAIR but it's the one that - at the moment - I enjoy using the most (despite its limitations).

1 hour ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Very limited functionality for anything but DSO imaging.

This is a pretty weak statement - how many other imaging types are there?  It's not like ASIAIR users are missing 67 other key types.   It's primarily a DSO imaging imaging platform with support for planetary imaging too I believe.

EDIT: I think it's amazing the options we have available to us - especially the software features that make DSO imaging easier, on all platforms!

Edited December 12, 2022 by geeklee

[ONIKKINEN]

1 hour ago, geeklee said:

Well said Stu.  I think there can be an undercurrent of snobbery towards the ASIAIR (which of course everyone will deny 😅).

Ecosystems have their place for some - there are clear advantages (and disadvantages depending on your point of view) 

For the record - I use a mini-PC (I use Voyager or NINA) and an ASIAIR.  I'm a "techie" and I miss not being able to look under the hood on the ASIAIR but it's the one that - at the moment - I enjoy using the most (despite its limitations).

This is a pretty weak statement - how many other imaging types are there?  It's not like ASIAIR users are missing 67 other key types.   It's primarily a DSO imaging imaging platform with support for planetary imaging too I believe.

EDIT: I think it's amazing the options we have available to us - especially the software features that make DSO imaging easier, on all platforms!

I think its an agreeable statement to say that firecapture and sharpcap are both superior to the AAP in terms of lucky imaging of solar system objects? It may be a small difference for the typical imager but it is one.

I agree that we have a golden situation with options at the moment (AAP one of them of course), but i wanted to point out that in terms of raw specs of what you COULD do the mini-pc option is a little bit better and potentially a lot cheaper.

[powerlord]

3 hours ago, Elp said:

It does (not on the gen 1 though), I did it the other day. They however need to improve the setting controls so you can be a bit more precise on the exposure whether it be micro seconds or milliseconds.

What I mean is not very well - it's only 720/1080p type thing, its not raw either. so compared to grabbing 100s frames per second in raw off a usb3.0 camera on my mac, it's pretty useless.

[powerlord]

2 hours ago, AndyThilo said:

Or maybe the ASIAir is enabling AP to be less 'techie'. Just because you're not massively computer literate should not stop you from imaging and to say otherwise is ignorant. 

it's a generalisation. Not sure how true it is. I write software for a living. I've just reverse engineered a ZWO EFW and build my own from scratch in my spare time.

I've written software apps, drivers, etc. I'm about as techie as they get.

I don't understand the animosity from some people about it tbh. I've never met an asiair user that doesn't see the merit in nina, etc. However there seems to be plenty on the other side that down rate the asiair. It's kind of sad.

The work required to integrate and make it almost 100% reliable with such an easy to use UI on all mobile devices is non trivial. Nothing else comes close. Or frankly is even being seriously developed.

If you prefer your mini PC (and if nina running windows - a nightmare in itself), then happy playing. Really I mean it. But to not see the power of the asiair is very blinkered and sad imho - they have pushed the hobby futher in the last 3 or 4 years than all the other (mostly badly designed) software has in the last 10.

an asair is a pi, case, power module, software and updates. so alone you are talking 150-200 to build the same thing yourself (and it would look terrible). So sure - you pay a premium - that's what most products are - solutions build from a bunch of other things, integrated to work together in a seemless way with a premium price tag, built by people who know these things are important. It's the same reasons I have a house full of macs - as do most of my engineering friends - because they are built well, and 'just work' so we can get on and code. Almost all of us at work have macs for the same reasons - we can focus on running 4 VMs at once or building linux pipelines to AWS or whatever without having to wait while windows installs a driver just because you've moved a USB stick to a different port. Or having to wait every morning when windows reboots again to download more badly written junk updates for the day. rant over. {now cue the anti-apple mob which very often will be the same people}

If you prefer to build it all yourself - with the sweat tears, problems, lack of support, but also the pleasure and flexibility you will get - more power to you.

However, I can't say in all honestly I would ever recommend any of the alternatives to a beginner at present - every one of them is a nightmare of a mess. And as long as those who use them seem to be happy with the mess, or even don't see the problems, the mess will stay.

Look at the 'serious' astronomer channels - often they have ignored it for ages too - turning their nose up at it - then they finally give in, try it and are amazed mostly - or they moan about trivial little things that you don't throw the baby out for (e.g. losing 10 mins at meridian flip).

humpf. merry xmas.

[Ouroboros]

@powerlord Fantastic post. I completely agree with what you say, and it made me chuckle.   

 

 

[The Admiral]

Well, I'm not in a position to go along with, or otherwise, the detail of what @powerlord says above, other that to say I agree with his conclusion, but as far as I'm concerned taking pictures of the night sky is what I want to do. I don't want laptops outside, or have to get to grips with a multitude of applications and get them all working seamlessly and harmoniously, I just want it to work. Full stop. If that's your bag, then fine, but don't assume that everyone wants to do the same. If I want to watch TV, I don't want to have to start up a host of different apps just so that I can do it. I just want to switch it on. No difference really, simplicity is the watchword.

When I got my AM5 I just went for the AAP. It seemed the obvious choice as being the most likely to work together without issue and the simplest to use. I've already got ZWO cameras so no sweat really. It just works. As others have commented, it's allowed folk to just get on and image, without climbing the unnecessary and daunting hurdles before getting there. And I would class myself as one of those people.

Just my two-penny worth.

Ian 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by The Admiral

[Lee_P]

@powerlord is wise!

To answer the OP, I'd say that astrophotography is a hobby, and a hobby should be fun. So, if you're not enjoying the mini PC and NINA, maybe it's a sign that you should try an ASIAIR. Buying one second-hand so that you can sell it on for minimal loss if you don't get on with it is a good call.

[Elp]

1 hour ago, powerlord said:

What I mean is not very well - it's only 720/1080p type thing, its not raw either. so compared to grabbing 100s frames per second in raw off a usb3.0 camera on my mac, it's pretty useless.

Yeah, its not very good and needs improvement on this, I use an astroberry for any solar or planetary capturing and used the AB on my latest Mars Moon Occultation animation which ive posted in the lunar section. For everything else, I don't think it can be beaten on the basis of its pure simplicity to get going. The OP has took the plunge, and they have the option to go more into it if they wish with their mini PC, or dare I mention it, get two rigs going at once...

[Ouroboros]

Where is Stellar Mate now in the battle of control devices? I don’t seem to hear very much about it on forums now.

I was considering the Stellar Mate route very seriously before deciding on getting an ASIair. I don’t regret my choice. 

[bosun21]

11 hours ago, ONIKKINEN said:

and the Asiair is demoted to marketing junk.

Really!! Many thousands disagree.

[bosun21]

I am one of those people who have been solely a visual observer who ventured into AP. Whilst I had read a great deal about the subject I was totally green as regards AP. It took me longer to get to grips with the exposure times and gain of my camera than to set up everything else. I cruised through the all sky PA and had achieved multi star guiding without a hitch. The asiair plus is a godsend to beginners of AP and it really is as easy as 1,2,3. 

[Stickey]

I use an Asiair pro and it's brilliant. It removes any pfaffing about with various pieces of s/w and just works. I'd rather spend my time fighting to get the best image than with the software. Once I'm mechanically set up, I can be polar aligned and bang on target and imaging in 10 mins.

No, it's not as flexible as a pc, but for getting up and imaging fast, it's hard to beat. 

The original ASIAir doesn't do planetary,  the ASIAir Pro and the Plus do. The latest v2 of the firmware gives much better control over planetary video. 

I'd suggest getting one 2nd hand and enjoy your recent acquired set up. 

JMHO

[ONIKKINEN]

1 hour ago, bosun21 said:

Really!! Many thousands disagree.

The ZWO supreme council has already decided the discussion - feel free to ignore my contribution to it as its a popularity contest at the moment and all there is to say has already been said in this thread.

[geeklee]

7 hours ago, ONIKKINEN said:

The ZWO supreme council has already decided the discussion - feel free to ignore my contribution to it as its a popularity contest at the moment and all there is to say has already been said in this thread.

That's not very fair.  You had made some quite harsh statements about the ASIAIR that went beyond general observations and personal experience.  Some of these were called out. 🙂

Your contribution on experience of a mini-PC and the benefits it provides is very welcome and as valuable as anything else in this topic 👍 

Edited December 13, 2022 by geeklee

[Len1257]

17 hours ago, powerlord said:

 

If you prefer your mini PC (and if nina running windows - a nightmare in itself),

Yet another off the cuff slap in the face for anyone who just gets a mini PC and loads it up with NINA and its associated apps and then just enjoys the capabilities of it working without any effort at all, night after night (those that we get). It really is simple.

If you wish to follow one brand of equipment to the exclusion of all others then a closed solution might suit. However I consider such a blinkered approach shortsighted. 

[StevieDvd]

IOS/Android

PC/Mac

PC/Asiair

Christmas/Humbug

Be thankful we have choices and be nice it does not cost anything.😇

 

[KP82]

Another vote for mini-PC.

Personally I don't like brand lock-in. An used Intel NUC or Pi4 could do pretty much everything that ASIAIR offers at a much lower cost. Yes the dedicated ASI app is more elegant than using RDP or VNC on a tablet, but imho not worth the extra cost especially if you're like me who prefer using a PC and its larger screen instead to remotely access the NUC/Pi.

I moved from BYEOS to NINA and then also Kstars/Ekos now. Yes there was a learning curve when switching to a different imaging software, but nothing that couldn't be sorted out after a couple of nights out.