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Help choosing a starter all-rounder setup


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Hi all,

Just as a quick background, as a family, my wife, kids and I have always had an interest in all things astronomical (my daughter decided aged 3 that she would like to be an astrobiologist when she grows up) and we have been using a very old, poor quality and rickety telescope passed on by my grandfather to spot a few bits and pieces in the night sky. This was his old telescope that we were given when he passed away a couple of years ago. Now that his affairs have been settled, some money was left for each of his grandchildren. As we inherited his old telescope, my immediate thought would be to continue this legacy by upgrading to a better quality scope.

Now I've done quite a bit of research over the last few days and, while the general advice tends to be 'visual or imaging', I'm hoping we can go for an all-rounder that will allow the kids (aged 5 and 7) to enjoy the planets and other brighter deep-sky objects visually, but will also allow me to start doing some astrophotography. While the kids won't have the patience for sitting out for long sessions, they will really enjoy the results, so will also get to enjoy this side of things until they get older and can get more involved.

With a budget of £1k, I'm wondering if hunting for a second-hand HEQ5 Pro and pairing this with a Skywatcher Explorer (130pds, 150pds or even 200pds) would be a good starting point? We already have a DSLR for imaging (a Nikon d5000). I'm open to hearing other solutions though!

Oh, and one other thing: Does there tend to be much in the way of discounts available around black friday for astronomy equipment, or is second-hand my best bet to get more bang for my buck?

Thanks in advance

Edited by xpm
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Hi , I will answer the last question first ... black Friday doesnt exist imo in our hobby . Always look at buying from a proper astronomy outlet when you can . Having said that , buying from people on sites like SGL ( where equipment is kept in really nice condition ..and prices are usually very fair ) is a great option  

An HEQ5 Pro is a great mount , one which has had the rowan belt upgrade , even better . Be weary about newts on an EQ mount . They are fantastic scopes but the EP can end up in any different direction and require you to manually swivel the tube at certain times . Its not a deal breaker but it had to be mentioned . Also , i realise you wish to start in astrophotograhy but the EQ mount does take a bit of setting up ... fine for you but if the kids want to see the moon and you are tired and dont want to lug that thing out ( we have all been there) there is bound to be disapointment . 

I seem to be putting a downer on things here , but , where a family is concerned the equipment has to be taken into account . 

If you can find a bargain HEQ5 , and possibly get , say an alt az  az4 mount then you are pretty much covered , a newtonian on the AZ4 is very useable and a breeze to set up quickly.  Although best stick to the 150mm pds . 

Stu

oh and i will mention it before anyone else ... an 8" dobsonian is one of the best scopes for ALL the family to use 

 

Edited by Stu1smartcookie
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It's very nice to see that your children are so interested.  We have hosted 100s of events at the observatory for all groups.  We still get a buzz when a youngster sees Saturn for the first time.  Being very honest you will find it extremely hard, in fact virtually impossible to find an 'all rounder' solution.  Everybody will end up disappointed.  From experience and to occupy the children's imagination one should aim for a low maintenance, easy to use GoTo set up.  The children can then get involved in the experience.  A Newtonian on an equatorial mount does not fit the bill as pointed out above.  In your position I would purchase a decent small refractor (E.g., ED80), put it on an AZ-Gti mount and and upgraded tripod (like an EQ6 tripod).  You can then use a phone and iPad to open up the night skies for your youngsters.  It's also a portable system; ours runs from one drill battery for a couple of nights viewing. When you get the bug for imaging you then have a decent imaging scope and tripod ready but you'll need to go for a more sophisticated and expensive mount.  Enjoy!

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There is no such thing as an 'all-rounder' telescope - it's as futile as trying to buy an 'all-rounder' motor-car' that's good for circuit racing, fetching the shopping and driving up hillside tracks. 

You could put together a deep space astrophotography rig with a budget of £1000 if you buy wisely second-hand, but don't expect it to be ideal as a grab'n go to keep the kids interested.  Kids will probably prefer something they can use themselves, i.e. a refractor ('looks like a telescope') on a manual mount.  Even some grown adults are defeated by the challenge of getting a HEQ5 to work.

Dobsonians always get a vote here, but are good for quick deployment, not good for imaging anything.

If you are interested in planetary imaging, that again has somewhat different hardware requirements.

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Personally I'd avoid a Newtonian on an eq mount.

I went for a second hand GEM28 and an az5 with 130pds.  The az5 and 130pds get used for visual and the GEM28 gets used for imaging with vintage lenses, although I got the 130pds so I could use it for imaging if I wanted.  I've tried it for imaging but it's a lot more setup and requires guiding and a decent guide scope. 

I tried the PDS on the GEM28 but very quickly got frustrated with where the eyepiece ended up.  Its not just a rotation thing, it's a height thing too.

I'd try to think of the imaging and visual as separate and not try to double duty, after all if you are using your scope for imaging you can't look through it!

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I agree with the general thrust of the argument here as I too have been trying to find one rig that covers all bases.  For what it's worth, the scope you want and the one the kids will use are probably good examples of that exact concept.  I'd be inclined to first get a half decent table-top dobsonian (https://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/sky-watcher-heritage-150p-flextube-dobsonian-telescope.html or if you want to add goto: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/sky-watcher-heritage-150p-flextube-virtuoso-gti.html), just to make sure that this is not just a passing phase.  If you want to upgrade from there you'd get a decent chunk of your investment back selling it on.

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I agree 100% with those who say the perfect all-round scope hasn't been invented yet.

If it were me, I'd buy the best dob I could afford for everyone in your family to get good views. Check out the Celestron Starsense dobs, which have a system whereby you can use a smartphone to link to the scope and point to the target you want to view. If you don't fancy that, StellaLyra do a wonderful range of dobs with the best accessories.

If you think a dob is too unwieldy, there are a lot of refractor choices but you'd have to get someone else to recommend which one and, importantly, which mount.

Whatever you decide, make sure you set aside some money to upgrade the cheap and often nasty eyepieces which the manufacturers supply.

Either way, I wouldn't leap into astrophotography until you have a bit more experience of the sky, not to mention deeper pockets!

Edited by cajen2
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Just now, cajen2 said:

I agree 100% with those who say the perfect all-round scope hasn't been invented yet.

If it were me, I'd buy the best dob I could afford for everyone in your family to get good views. Check out the Celestron Starsense dobs, which have a system whereby you can use a smartphone to link to the scope and point to the target you want to view. If you don't fancy that, StellaLyra do a wonderful range of dobs with the best accessories.

If you think a dob is too unwieldy, there are a lot of refractor choices but you'd have to get someone else to recommend which one and, importantly, which mount.

Whatever you decide, make sure you set aside some money to upgrade the cheap and often nasty eyepieces which the manufacturers supply.

Nasty is an understatement.  I don't even use them as paper weights lol

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... just adding a bit more to this , there is an 8" skywatcher "goto" dobsonian which is around the 1k mark ... this will give you fantastic views with the added bonus of the computerised system . kids ( and old kids like me ) love computerised stuff ... its so "cool " to see it work , plus there is no need for manual tracking .

Stu

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Now that we have all chimed in with what WE think is best, here is what you should do.  Nothing.... Absolutely nothing..... Until you go to a outreach program and actually look at the various scopes and get your hands on one.  Astronomers are proud of their scopes and we want you to look through them and see what works best for your situation.  For me a dob was a no brainer, my only mistake was I didn't go big enough. 

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I am still a beginner, so that I might not be in a position to offer any recommendation on telescopes. But if I were you, I would be very careful to jump into some setup up to the maximum budget of £1k. I would start from a relatively low budget one, for example:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-gti-wifi/sky-watcher-explorer-130ps-az-gti.html

I like dob. But with kids, I would choose a goto. Note, I recommend this one just because it is goto and has a reltative good aperture. I have no idea how good this one is.

With a whole family of four persons into astronomy, it could be a big chance that one telescope is never enough anyway. You will know much better for the next purchase after playing with the first one a couple of months/years.

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You haven't mentioned a critical thing here, what bortle zone will you be as setting up in? I primarily do from a bortle 7, most if not all nebulae are invisible visually for me, clusters are barely there even with averted vision. It is why I image more than view. If you have heavy light pollution even a large aperture scope won't reveal much and you'll be stuck with viewing solar system objects only (mostly Jupiter, Saturn, Mars, Venus, the moon, other planets are hard to find and see and mostly will be dots).

If you're firstly looking to get into imaging, by the sound of your write up I'd say you are, as you already have the camera I would personally find a used Samyang 135mm F2, it will work better and provide quicker results for you from the off with little effort and you will struggle to put together a scope setup with associated additional equipment cost which matches it's speed, sharpness and ease of setup and use. All you'll need in addition is a tripod plus tracking mount (azgti in EQ mode so more bits needed/SA GTI/Star Adventurer (I wouldn't recommend none goto though), the heq5 will be better and more future proof, a guidescope and guide camera (something like the 30mm F4 GS and 120mc guide camera), some form of mounting method (dovetails and nuts and bolts), a computer controller (asiair/RPI/pc/mini pc), and associated cables.

Once you're happy with the results, then look to upgrade to a scope for the focal length and resolution boost.

There's plenty of owners threads within this forum for you to look through to see what people are achieving.

 

Edited by Elp
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3 hours ago, xpm said:

a very old, poor quality and rickety telescope

^^ What is it? Maybe an old Broadhurst Clarkson/Fullerscope 3" refractor badly out of collimation? Or an old Cave reflector needing a new shiny mirror coating? 🙂 If so forget (most of) the Chinese made scopes (personal opinion ONLY) as in general their quality control is badly out of collimation....

Likewise avoid Dobsons like the plague unless you intend to mount a reflector with a 16"+ mirror....

A short time ago a member offered a Meade LX20 8" SCT WITH all the trimmings for 400 quid (or was it 450)? That was a bargain which would probably have suited your current needs...

Go second hand, just be a bit wary and use a dose of common sense 🙂 

PS Browsing 4 sale saw member @wookie1965 offering a Meade 127mm refractor with lots of added extras for a pittance of 280 quid. It's one of the 'older' Meades which have good optics.

https://www.cloudynights.com/articles/cat/user-reviews/telescopes/120mm-130mm-refractors/meade-127mm-ed-refractor-r853

Edited by SthBohemia
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Thanks so much for all the replies, and apologies for the delay in response. As usual, work and family life can take over from time to time!

To answer the question on our existing scope, it's a Tasco 89T Refractor from the 70s. Can't find out much info about it, but it is basically no good as the tripod wobbles enough that one knock sends anything but the moon straight out of view!

Reading the above it seems that there is not a vast amount of consensus on what the best option is, perhaps a Dob, perhaps a refractor, but a newtonian on a mount like the HEQ 5 is probably not the best idea. One other option I had considered was the ED80, which did get a mention.

We live in a Bortle 7 location, but will look to do some dark sky camping with the scope once we have one. That being said, seeing things from the garden will also be a requirement.

Plenty more to think about though, and I'll report back when I've considered further.

Thanks again!

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I image from bortle 7, and visually I've tried a 130pds and a Celestron C6 SCT. I struggled to even see a bright cluster like the Hercules Globular Cluster (just about making out a faint dark grey fuzziness with averted vision), if I didn't have goto I would have struggled to find it. Viewing nebulae? Impossible, other than maybe Orion. Yet with a camera each object appears reasonably quickly (Hercules for example quite defined in a 10-30 second exposure, many DSOs you have to take a lot of images and stack but they begin to faintly appear in 60-120s images typically).

Others can comment on their experiences about whether using a 8 inch or above from similar bortle as to whether they have seen DSO objects clearly visually.

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I think two setups might be the way to go, although it makes the budget for imaging tight. Among other things, you won't have to fend off the children asking to look through the scope while you're imaging! What do you have in the way of camera lenses? If you have some good telephoto ones that could remove the need to buy an imaging scope right away.

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If you live in Bortle 7 then the planets the moon and the brightest DSO are the only option. Don't worrry, this is still plenty. Some form of Goto is essential, especially with kids.

I recommend a small to medium size Mak on a Gti, something like this: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/maksutov/sky-watcher-skymax-127-az-gti.html

It's an excellent panetary scope which is good for the brighter DSO as well. (A bigger telescope will not help you to see much more in Bortle 7).

FLO quotes weight of 7.5 kg in total so very portable for a holiday travel too, and can be carried assembled easily directly from the house to the open sky.

The disadvantages are:

1. Maks have slightly longer cooldown time compared to open tube telescopes. if you plan to use them at higher magnification (more than x100). Just give it 20-30 minutes outside for the 127mm model. Low power views are not affected.

2. Some kind of dew shield is needed to stop the corrector plate fogging up. Home made from foam mats work just as well as the branded ones,

3. Narrow field of view, basically up to 1 degree. But note that all solar system objects fit in this. And globular clusters and most open clusters except the Pleiades.

Bonus: A Mak with a solar filter is a good solar scope, I use mine a lot this way to watch sunspots daytime.

Another advantage of the Gti is that you can also buy a small refractor like the 80ED for widefield view and use the mount with it, if you need it.

 

Anyway, there is no single right or wrong choice, ideally try to look through other people's scopes to make up your mind!

 

Edited by Nik271
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More or less agree with @Nik271. We probably part ways in regard to which brand/model to purchase.....

What I type is PERSONAL opinion only and should be taken as such! I have tended to send the natives on the warpath of late iin regard to the Chinese made telescopes.

That disclaimer out of the way...

Maybe consider a Celestron C90 Maksutov (3.5" obj lens)- One of the critters actually made in Torrence California some years ago, preferably of the orange tube variety. There is a very favourable review of them from Company 7 (highy reputable source) when compared to a very expensive Questar of approximately the same appature!

They are not easily obtained within Europe, however, they are quite common within USA (also Australia) and obtainable from between 100-150 US$. Don't be nervous of purchasing overseas, virtually all of my gear was from foreign purchases and no problems ever encountered. Just use common sense 🙂 

A word of caution regarding reviews of 'scopes' over internet, especially those entitled 'The greatest, best most delicious telescopes of 2022', which surprisingly all seem to be of Chinese manufacture. Simply mass advertising hype to fool the uninitiated.

If you have the loot to throw around go for a Questar 🙂 

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On 02/11/2022 at 09:15, xpm said:

We live in a Bortle 7 location, but will look to do some dark sky camping with the scope once we have one. That being said, seeing things from the garden will also be a requirement.

Make sure to consider size, weight, and transportability for both camping and backyard use.

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On 03/11/2022 at 09:04, SthBohemia said:

I have tended to send the natives on the warpath of late iin regard to the Chinese made telescopes.

This native just gets frustrated by poor and inaccurate advice. Most Chinese scopes from reputable manufacturers (Skywatcher, Celestron) are perfectly decent quality these days. Not without fault, and built to a price but optically very acceptable in my experience.

A fairly hard to come by C90 of specific vintage, imported from the US is hardly a sensible place to start I would suggest. Please think more carefully about what would suit the people posting rather than your own specific biases.

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12 hours ago, Stu said:

A fairly hard to come by C90 of specific vintage, imported from the US is hardly a sensible place to start I would suggest. Please think more carefully about what would suit the people posting rather than your own specific biases.

Point made, I have to agree with you. Although a quick look through Ebay came up with a dozen C90's for sale, all overpriced, ya, you guessed it, USA and Oz! There would be far more listed within the USA astro markets.

My recommendation of the C90 was entirely due to YOU, thus the blame lies upon your shoulders for replying to a thread I started regarding, Questars verses the 'rest'. Until you posted a feed from Company 7 comparing the C90 very favourably with a Questar I was unaware that the C90 was such a decent scope!!!

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