Not sure which scope to get (looking at two different ones)

[k_martensen]

Hello, it's yet another post with the topic of not knowing what to get, and sorry for the long post, I'm just the kind of person that have an extremely hard time deciding when I'm buying stuff .
TL;DR; Should I get an Astromaster 130 EQ (with motor or phone adapter + Barlow Lense) or Omegon 150mm?

I currently have a National Geographic reflector scope, that's 76mm (if I remember right) on an EQ mount that I've until recently just used as and AZ mount, but now I've started learning about polar alignment.

But now I want to buy my first "real" and bigger telescope. But I'm not totally sure what to get. I started out wanting one with GOTO but as I'm a poor student, also wanna learn the night sky, and also want a bit for my bucks and don't have money for a power bank on top. I'm looking at good "old fashion" manual EQ mounts again.
Currently I'm looking at an "Astromaster 130/650 on EQ (CG-3 EQ mount in steel)" or an "Omegon 150/750 EQ-3 (alu)"
My problem is, i've seen in some reviews that the Omegon is a bit shaky in the mount, so it might not be the best there. But i like that it's the 20 mm bigger, but how much does those 20 mm + 100mm focal lenght give?
The retailer i'm looking at using got 3 "versions" of the astomaster (differences is specified in the specifimations below).
Until now I've just been looking at the moon, at bit on Saturn, Jupiter and mars, but if I could, I would love to also start looking a bit at DSOs.

A bit of the data that I've been looking at
Omegon 150 mm
Highest mag: 300x
equipment in the box: 2x Barlow, 6.5 mm and 25 mm eye piece, red dot finder
Mag with the supplied stuff: 30x, 60x, 115x and 230x
Mirror size: 150 mm
Focal lenght: 750mm f/5
EQ 3 mount in aluminium
Price:  344.57 USD (including the danish tax and such)

Celestron Astromaster 130 EQ
Highest mag: 307x
equipment (version 1): 20mm and 10 mm eye piece, red dot finder
equipment (version 2): 20 mm and 10 mm eye piece, motor for the EQ mount, red dot finder
equipment (version 3): 20 mm and 10 mm eye piece, smart phone adapter, and a t-adapter/barlow 2x
mag with supplied (v1 and v2): 33x and 65x
mag with supplied (v3): 33x, 65x, 66x and 130x
Mirror size: 130mm
Focal length: 650mm (f/5.12)
CG-3 EQ mount in steel
v1 price: 304.83 usd
v2 price: 397.65 usd
v3 price: 370.60 usd
 

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by k_martensen

[k_martensen]

Also a sidenote a Dub might not really be an option for me, as the city I live in have decided to place a streetlight pretty much in my garden, so I travel out of the city to a field where I'm allowed to setup in, so there is not really any level place where I can have a dub.

[SthBohemia]

1 hour ago, k_martensen said:

I would love to also start looking a bit at DSOs.

There is no definitive answer as regards what to purchase as much depends upon what you expect from the scope! Forget the magnification factors as no matter what scope you have a 200x magnification is the limit unless you are sitting on top of a mountain with extremely good seeing conditions.

Be aware that most DSO's visually look little more than a vague patch of mist even with 300mm+ mirrors.

Maybe look around the second hand markets and see what's available, no need for GOTO, an old equatorial mount like a Fullerscope with a little motor makes the modern mounts (the popular ones, not upmarket Losmandy etc) look like junk (personal opinion).

🙂 not much help Im afraid as regards your original question 😞 

[NGC 1502]

22 hours ago, k_martensen said:

Also a sidenote a Dub might not really be an option for me, as the city I live in have decided to place a streetlight pretty much in my garden, so I travel out of the city to a field where I'm allowed to setup in, so there is not really any level place where I can have a dub.

If you intend to travel out of the city how will you get there, by car or public transport?   You only need a small area to set up in, if the field is uneven is there no part of the field you can use?

Also, if traveling by car can you set up close to the car, or would you need to park and carry equipment very far?  How much do you intend to spend, what’s your maximum budget?   If you have a limited budget, best to do visual observing rather than imaging.  Many people new to observing find equatorial mounts confusing!

Perhaps continue to use what you already have for a while, a 3” reflector used with enthusiasm can show you a lot!

The above information will help folks on here give advice.

All the best with your decision 😊

[k_martensen]

2 minutes ago, NGC 1502 said:

If you intend to travel out of the city how will you get there, by car or public transport?   You only need a small area to set up in, if the field is uneven is there no part of the field you can use?

Also, if traveling by car can you set up close to the car, or would you need to park and carry equipment very far?  How much do you intend to spend, what’s your maximum budget?   If you have a limited budget, best to do visual observing rather than imaging.  Many people new to observing find equatorial mounts confusing!

Perhaps continue to use what you already have for a while, a 3” reflector used with enthusiasm can show you a lot!

The above information will help folks on here give advice.

All the best with your decision 😊

I got a car, so I can drive myself luckily as out public transport stops at around 8 pm

The field is a bit uneven but with the mount I already have I've had good luck getting it level quickly. the distance I need to carry from 1 meter to as 50 meters, but I can drive on the field I'm using as it's not a field that is being planted there is just grass.

I've seen a lot of videos with EQ mounts and actually find them a bit easier than AZ mounts as when it's setup it's easier to track the objects in my opinion, no need to turn in two axis, just the RA axis.

My budget is between 400 USD to 460 USD (and that's with Danish tax, so for people not used to 25% tax, in Denmark it's gives a bit fewer buying options.

After posting this I also saw a Bresser Pollux 150/750mm at the price 411 USD (again with tax). Which I fell a bit in love with, as I noticed the two others, I mentioned don't have a parabolic mirror, which for what I can read the Bresser Pollux 150/750mm does. Plus, it comes with solar filter, can take 1.25" and 2" oculars, comes with a 3x Barlow Lense. Solar filter and smart phone adapter. Tho if I want to get a RA motor for it, it's a bit pricier than the other scops but for now, the motor is not needed. I've also considered getting a laser collimator from the start to give me the best option to get a good experience from the start with the new scope, but I'm not sure how likely it is for the scope to be un culminated when it arrives.

I'm still looking and keeping an eye on the secondhand market in my area tho, so nothing is set in stone yet

[k_martensen]

21 hours ago, SthBohemia said:

There is no definitive answer as regards what to purchase as much depends upon what you expect from the scope! Forget the magnification factors as no matter what scope you have a 200x magnification is the limit unless you are sitting on top of a mountain with extremely good seeing conditions.

Be aware that most DSO's visually look little more than a vague patch of mist even with 300mm+ mirrors.

Maybe look around the second hand markets and see what's available, no need for GOTO, an old equatorial mount like a Fullerscope with a little motor makes the modern mounts (the popular ones, not upmarket Losmandy etc) look like junk (personal opinion).

🙂 not much help Im afraid as regards your original question 😞 

Nice thanks for the pointers, even tho it's not much help with the question it's still good help, as i mentioned in the response to NGC 1502 i've also discovered another scope, but i'm still thinking about it and keeping an eye on the secondhand market. And will also keep an eye out for the mount you mentioned  

[Nik271]

About the Astromaster 130: I used to own that scope, it was my first 'proper' scope. It was a good deal when it was below 200 GBP with the mount, but at current prices I would not recommend.

The main drawback of the Astromaster is that you wont be able to use high magnification, i.e. more than 70-80 times. Its mirror is spherical and it shoud be parabolic for its focal ratio. The scope suffers from spherical aberration which means that not all light gets focused in one point. The starts at high magnification will not be pin points and the detail on the planets will be poor. For DSO though it should be fine, as you don't need high magnification there.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Nik271

[k_martensen]

Just now, Nik271 said:

About the Astromaster 130: I used to own that scope, it was my first 'proper' scope. It was a good deal when it was below 200 GBP with the mount, but at current prices I would not recommend.

The main drawback of the Astromaster is that you wont be able to use high magnification, i.e. more than 70-80 times. Its mirror is spherical and it shoud be parabolic for its focal ratio. The scope suffers from sphericall aberration which means that not all light gets focused in one point. The starts at high magnification will not be pin points and the detail on the planets will be poor. For DSO though it should be fine, as you dont need high magnification there.

 

Thanks that's a good point, I also just realized that about the mirror, and that's the problem with both telescopes I mentioned in my first post. After seeing that, I have been looking at a Bresser Pollux 150/750mm that has a parabolic mirror, and for now, the Bresser is properly my favorite, but I'm still looking at options, but thanks for the pointer

[Nik271]

I used to own a 150/750 Newtonian from Celestron and it worked well on a EQ3 mount. In my view it's the maximum size for comfortable viewing on a equatorial platform without using stools or ladders. You can rotate the tube in the rings so the eyepiece is at comfortable height.

The Bresser seems a good deal, bear in mind the tripod seems a bit shaky. This kind of scope weighs about 5 kilograms and the mount with counterweights also about 5kg, so the legs have to support 10 kilos, doable but there will be some vibrations). But it is good enough to get you started and in the future you can upgrade the tripod and even the mount. I would recommend EQ5 class mount for more solid performance but this is beyond your budget for now, unless you find something on the second hand market.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Nik271

[k_martensen]

Just now, Nik271 said:

I used to own a 150/750 Newtonian from Celestron and it worked well on a EQ3 mount. In my view it's the maximum size for comfortable viewing on a equatorial platform without using stools or ladders. You can alsoways rotate the tube in the rings so the eyepiece is at comfortable height.

The Bresser seems a good deal, bear in mind the tripod seems a bit shaky. This kind of scope weighsabout 5 kilograms and the mount with counterweights also about 5kg, so the legs have to support 10 kilos, doable but there will be some vibrations). But it is good enough to get you started and in the future you can upgrade the tripod and even the mount. I would recommend EQ5 class mount for more solid performance but this is beyond your budget for now, unless you find something on the second hand.

 

Nice, yeah the stability is my biggest concern. I saw in YouTube somebody mention that if you attach a hook right in the middle of the tray and then hang something a bit heavy on it, that I can help, not fix it, but help, and it seems like a doable solution to begin with before upgrading to a bigger tripod/mount. but thanks for the pointers, they are all really helpful.

So far, I think it's the Bresser that I'm most hooked on getting and that I think I would be able to use the most and longest for now at least, I mean there is always bigger and better things to get, but sadly my money tree has not started growing yet  

[wookie1965]

My first scope was a skywatcher 150p on a EQ3-2 it was a F5. 

I had 18 months with that set up learned and saw fantastic views. 

[SthBohemia]

On 23/10/2022 at 10:08, k_martensen said:

I've also considered getting a laser collimator

^^ Forget it, unless you wish the misery of attempting to collimate the collimator (as @wookie1965 above can well attest to).

[k_martensen]

7 hours ago, SthBohemia said:

^^ Forget it, unless you wish the misery of attempting to collimate the collimator (as @wookie1965 above can well attest to).

Yeah just saw a video explaning that and how to just make a collimater cap from a dust cover so that's what i will do

[Swillis]

I have an astromaster 130 (second hand as my first scope). While it's certainly not the best scope it got me started on the visual side of things but have been focusing on imaging so it doesn't come out very often. I find the main limitation is the amount of wobble on the mount, waiting for the target to stop bouncing around takes a good few seconds. 

There was a thread a few days ago suggesting a mak127 as a great 'do it all' scope. Not sure about the price, but it's got me sold, if only I had the money left over from investing in imaging...

[Swillis]

This is the OTA alone (£319), not sure what the conversion plus tax would be

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/telescopes-in-stock/skywatcher-skymax-127-ota.html

If you already have a scope then the current mount might keep you going depending on the weight limit.  Or there are versions available with mounts. Also there is a smaller version of the Skymax. 

[k_martensen]

Well an update, i ended up buying a Bresser Pollux 150/750mm from a Danish retailer, I will mostly buy from Danish retailers if it's not second hand as it can be easier discussing with them if there is any warranty problems  It should be shipped today and arrive tomorrow, and then I will have time to figure it out, as there is cloudy the next week if not more  But thanks for the pointers everyone  and a mount will be one of the next bigger purchases' I will make 

[Alan64]

I'm relieved to hear that you've bypassed the "Astromaster" 130EQ.  Celestron had stated on their website, a Q&A reply, some years ago that the primary-mirror of same was spherical, rather than parabolic.  At f/5 for a reflector, a spherical mirror is inexcusable, and acceptable only at f/7, minimum, and longer, like a 114mm f/8.

That of the Bresser 150mm f/5 is parabolic, and for sharper images; well done.

I have a 150/750, and my largest operational telescope, which started as a Newtonian-Dobson...

The mount of the Bresser kit may be motorised...

https://www.bresser.de/en/Astronomy/BRESSER-RA-Tracking-Motor-Controller.html

...and for automatic, hands-free tracking of everything in the sky, keeping any object there in the centre of an eyepiece, for hours if desired.  The 6V battery-pack for the motor-drive may be bypassed, and for either a direct connection to the mains, or for portability, a rechargeable, lithium-ion, 6v battery-pack, which may require a bit of tinkering.

There will be the discipline of collimation to learn and master, and for sharp images at the higher and highest powers.  At f/5, the Bresser will be somewhat difficult, however easier than at f/4.  

Hopefully, the telescope will arrive well-collimated.

I've had my own up to 180x or so, and have seen the glories, but on a motorised equatorial, like that of the Bresser kit, 300x is possible, albeit most easily when observing the Moon.  I saw this one night with my own, at said power; an afocal shot...

That feature has been called 'The Maiden Looking Out Upon The Sea", or "...Looking Out To Sea", whichever.

Again, well done.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Alan64

[SthBohemia]

3 hours ago, Alan64 said:

Celestron had stated on their website, a Q&A reply, some years ago that the primary-mirror of same was spherical, rather than parabolic.  At f/5 for a reflector, a spherical mirror is inexcusable, and acceptable only at f/7, minimum, and longer, like a 114mm f/8.

WHAT!!! Are you pulling my leg? A spherical Newtonian primary mirror is ONLY acceptable if focal length is F12 or above! Even if I made an f12 Newt I would give the primary a 1- 2 minute parabolization treatment!

Dunno whether to laugh or cry from various threads regarding some of the Chinese manufactured telescopes!  Example-"Pinched primary mirror". Eeek, is the primary made from 6mm plate glass? "Make sure the primary mirror rotates freely within its cell". Aaarg the primary is supposed to be FIRMLY secured within its cell!!

I am in danger of going totally off topic here- HOWEVER a Newt or any other scope mirror is only as good as its WORST zone, the RMS wavelenght criteria is nonsence and gives misleading mirror optical accuracy. Add to which a mirror having the 70% zone 1/8 wave undercorrected and the 95% zone 1/8 wave overcorrected is NOT a 1/8 wave mirror it is a 1/4 wave mirror!!!

@k_martensen maybe consider making your own mount? An old Celestron tripod (the 10Kg ones) can be used as a basis and be altered to accomodate an equatorial head which is not hard to fabricate. I mentioned Fullerscope mounts earlier but they are hard to obtain. The mark III would suit your scope, the mark IV , although desirable a bit of an overkill as it weighs 40-50Kg, great for a 300mm scope 🙂  A UK member has one for sale stick around for a month and post 30 or so replies to any topic and the Buy/Sell options open up. 🙂 

[Alan64]

On 28/10/2022 at 04:05, SthBohemia said:

WHAT!!! Are you pulling my leg? A spherical Newtonian primary mirror is ONLY acceptable if focal length is F12 or above! Even if I made an f12 Newt I would give the primary a 1- 2 minute parabolization treatment!

I wrote, "At f/5 for a reflector, a spherical mirror is inexcusable, and acceptable only at f/7, minimum, and longer, like a 114mm f/8"; not "f12" or above.

[SthBohemia]

19 minutes ago, Alan64 said:

and acceptable only at f/7, minimum, and longer, like a 114mm f/8"; not "f12" or above.

🙂 I can see what you wrote 😞 A reflector of anything less than f12 which has a spherical mirror is a piece of JUNK!!!!

[Alan64]

 

6 minutes ago, SthBohemia said:

🙂 I can see what you wrote 😞 A reflector of anything less than f12 which has a spherical mirror is a piece of JUNK!!!!

 

No, at f/6.3 and under, that would be a gamble if spherical, which includes an f/5. 

I should mention that the Q&A reply from Celestron may have been in error, I sometimes think, regarding the "AstroMaster" 130EQ.  It may have a parabola, in fact. Historically, Celestron has been tight-lipped about a lot of their specifications, for this, and for that.

[Alan64]

The cold, hard facts of life: it is more difficult, more costly, for the manufacturers overseas, to produce parabolas, at left...

I found this the other day...

https://www.telescope.com/Orion-SkyScanner-BL102mm-TableTop-Reflector-Telescope/p/134763.uts

It is a 102mm f/6.3 Newtonian-Dobson, and with a spherical primary-mirror indicated.  Elsewhere, I had asked as to whether or not it would be suggestible to those first starting out.  No one replied to say yea, or nay, which I was meant to take as a no(?), hence, f/7 and above going forward as suggestible; and with the mirrors dictated by said manufacturers, apparently.

A 130mm f/7, and with a known spherical primary-mirror...

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-130.html

I would love to have just the OTA, there.  Its sphere would be the least of my concerns.  Instead, I would have to remove three of the spider-vanes, and as I did for this Celestron "PowerSeeker" 127EQ, and with a primary-mirror at a native f/4 or thereabouts....

However, the telescope is itself at f/8.  After I had collimated it, I saw the GRS of Jupiter, for the first time in my life, and nigh tack-sharp, at over 150x.

But with a traditional, classical Newtonian, let's be thankful for the spheres we're receiving from overseas, but at f/7 and above.

Let's keep in mind that the master observed at f/5, and with a sphere...

Who are we to deserve better?

[Mr Spock]

On 22/10/2022 at 12:05, SthBohemia said:

Forget the magnification factors as no matter what scope you have a 200x magnification is the limit unless you are sitting on top of a mountain with extremely good seeing conditions.

Not true. With my 12" Dob in good seeing conditions I have regularly observed the moon at x380 from my suburban garden - even higher in excellent seeing. 

I also collimate before each session - using a laser. As long as the laser itself is well collimated there isn't a problem. You will find using other methods difficult in the dark  Any transport could potentially move the mirror and that is something to be aware of if you collimate at home in the light.

Bressers are good scopes with nice build quality. You won't go far wrong there.

[SthBohemia]

8 hours ago, Alan64 said:

No, at f/6.3 and under, that would be a gamble if spherical, which includes an f/5. 

I should mention that the Q&A reply from Celestron may have been in error, I sometimes think, regarding the "AstroMaster" 130EQ.  It may have a parabola, in fact. Historically, Celestron has been tight-lipped about a lot of their specifications, for this, and for that.

As Ingolls and many others roll around in their graves......

Sighs... 😞 I give in. The towel is thrown into the ring.... walks away shaking head in a stupor 😞

@Alan64 did you know that obsidian makes fantastic refractor lenses? I read that on the back of a toothpaste box 🙂 

[Alan64]

6 hours ago, SthBohemia said:

As Ingolls and many others roll around in their graves......

Sighs... 😞 I give in. The towel is thrown into the ring.... walks away shaking head in a stupor 😞

@Alan64 did you know that obsidian makes fantastic refractor lenses? I read that on the back of a toothpaste box 🙂 

From 76mm to 130mm, the Newtonians, in the marketplace, with a Dobson base or no, are definitely mass-produced, and in danger of bearing spheres as a result.  Thankfully, we're not seeing spheres, much, at 150mm and larger, save within the Cassegrain family, of which my "Bird Jones" is a proud member, however shunned.

Once, a parabola was most coveted and prized, more then than as it is now, as we're used to their inclusion within most Newtonians, taking same for granted even.

Refractors with a doublet of obsidian; what, an inherent variable-polariser, or for observing our nearest star?

Edited October 30, 2022 by Alan64