Next telescope - upgrade from Heritage 150

[lvan]

An 8” dob will give you good aperture at a comfortable eyepiece height and should be light enough for you. Kinder on the wallet too. When you want to dabble with AP, consider a light weight goto mount coupled with an ed80 or something similar.  Also a good visual combo. Maybe you don’t even need the 8” cause you already have a 6”. Either way, one scope’s not gonna do it all, so consider one for one and one for the other.

Edited October 3, 2022 by lvan

[cajen2]

@Ivan has it right. The perfect scope for everything hasn't been invented. One for visual and one for imaging is a good compromise.

[apaulo]

from personal experience, you can spend a lot of money on astro gear for very little improvement, 2 and 3 times the money definately does not mean 2 and 3 times  the improvement. if at all possable try before you buy. enjoy the hunt.

[AlcorAlly]

1 hour ago, Mike Q said:

Lets throw a truss dob out there.  They can be broken down into smaller pieces so you dont have to handle it all at one time.  A truss dob in the 10 to 12 inch area are available as go to units.  This would give you a significant boost in light gathering capacity, tracking for AP and while more time consuming, it would be easier to move. 

A truss dob, are you thinking like this one? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115537387956?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=mI_Q3GWlT4u&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=n557JsECSzu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[AlcorAlly]

45 minutes ago, Philip R said:

There is a 9.25 bundle (with images) in the for sale section, to give you an idea of the size, etc.

Where do I find the Sale section? I’m looking but can’t see it.

[cajen2]

9 minutes ago, craftui said:

A truss dob, are you thinking like this one? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115537387956?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=mI_Q3GWlT4u&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=n557JsECSzu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

That sort of thing, yes. Careful, though, some of them are still pretty heavy.

8 minutes ago, craftui said:

Where do I find the Sale section? I’m looking but can’t see it.

Sorry, but you can't access that yet - you need a minimum number of posts (I think it's 50) and a minimum time as a member. It's just to reduce the chances of scammers coming here to make a quick buck.

Edited October 3, 2022 by cajen2

[Guest]

10 hours ago, craftui said:

A truss dob, are you thinking like this one? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115537387956?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=mI_Q3GWlT4u&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=n557JsECSzu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Exactly like that.  They break down into pieces.  So while the whole unit may weigh near to 150 pounds or more, the individual pieces will be more manageable 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Mike Q

[LukeSkywatcher]

For me personally (being a wheelchair user), until a few yrs ago, the biggest aperture scope I had and able to manage was a Heritage 130P. Brilliant scope, but I wanted MORE. 

I did research, and asked people what would be best for me. The conclusion was a Celestron 8se. 

I love the scope. I'm purely visual, so it ticks that box. It's light and easy to set up. It ticks that box. It's not overly expensive. That's another box ticked.

My point IS, that even a modest jump in aperture (in my case 130mm-200mm) was a giant leap for me with regards to observing. 

I now have an 8" scope that I can single handedly carry outside and set up on my own, without having to rely on anyone for help. 

I'm not suggesting that you buy an 8se (although it's a good choice).

I bought something that works for me. My 1st scope was a 90mm refractor on an EQ mount. I found it difficult to use, so it was only used a handful of times. The best scope is one you will use often.

 

[sorrimen]

You’re asking a lot i.e. basically everything you can ask for in a scope. Portability, ease of set up, both visual and AP, significantly better than 6” of aperture, and to top it all off not too expensive 😆

I think your wisest option is to think about what you can compromise on. GOTO dobs are great and for a ‘significant’ upgrade over 6” you can get a 10” or 12” that is still relatively manageable in multiple trips, albeit getting heavy. That said, you will be rather limited photography-wise. As you understand, you will have field rotation limiting long exposures, and the tracking itself isn’t going to come close to guided set ups. There are people who do great work with quirky set ups, but these are generally people who already have a lot of skills and experience. I for one, without many skills, have done solar system imaging with an 8” dob with reasonable success, but I wouldn’t even dream of recommending this for someone wanting to get into solar system imaging unless they were very financially constrained. It’s possible, but you’ve said you want something ‘easily adapted’ to AP and I’d have to say that AP with a dob is simply the hardest form of AP there is. 

Unfortunately there is no such thing as a visual rig that is a significant step up above 6” (i.e. 10” or more as you specify) that can be adapted to AP if you suddenly decide you want to pursue it. Visual requires large aperture over everything else and arguably favours certain f/ratios (e.g. not too fast for aberrations, but not such a long focal length that limits any low mags). AP favours fast f/ratios and the best tracking you can manage, with aperture being as large as you can afford with good tracking. There are middle grounds that work e.g. a 150mm apo on a good mount, a large reflector on a good mount but these middle grounds are incredibly expensive and don’t fit your requirements anyway, either being too small an aperture or too heavy/unwieldy a set up. 

The issue is that whilst you can take photos with GOTO dobs and have good visual experiences with small scopes, neither are optimised for those purposes so it’s very difficult to recommend options without feeling you’re likely to be disappointed in one aspect or another with your very strict and expansive requirements. Note that you have also asked for improvements in detail and quality of views. Detail in DSOs is by far dominated by light pollution. Andromeda from my bortle 7 skies will look like a big grey smudge from 50mm of aperture right up to probably 250mm or more. Regarding planets, seeing is the dominant factor. 6” of aperture let’s you push well into most average places’ seeing atmospheric conditions, magnification-wise. Larger scopes will show you more detail to a certain extent, but they will be more affected by seeing and the magnification will be limited by the atmosphere unless you live somewhere with fantastic conditions. Improvements will be there but planetary detail is subtle so you have to be realistic! 

Hope I haven’t pooped on the party too much but I know if I was in your position I’d want someone to be upfront with whether my expectations were realistic. With some compromises you can be very satisfied, but I feel as though right now you’re on the path to be let down in one aspect or another. 

Best of luck!

[LukeSkywatcher]

8 minutes ago, sorrimen said:

You’re asking a lot i.e. basically everything you can ask for in a scope. Portability, ease of set up, both visual and AP, significantly better than 6” of aperture, and to top it all off not too expensive 😆

I think your wisest option is to think about what you can compromise on. GOTO dobs are great and for a ‘significant’ upgrade over 6” you can get a 10” or 12” that is still relatively manageable in multiple trips, albeit getting heavy. That said, you will be rather limited photography-wise. As you understand, you will have field rotation limiting long exposures, and the tracking itself isn’t going to come close to guided set ups. There are people who do great work with quirky set ups, but these are generally people who already have a lot of skills and experience. I for one, without many skills, have done solar system imaging with an 8” dob with reasonable success, but I wouldn’t even dream of recommending this for someone wanting to get into solar system imaging unless they were very financially constrained. It’s possible, but you’ve said you want something ‘easily adapted’ to AP and I’d have to say that AP with a dob is simply the hardest form of AP there is. 

Unfortunately there is no such thing as a visual rig that is a significant step up above 6” (i.e. 10” or more as you specify) that can be adapted to AP if you suddenly decide you want to pursue it. Visual requires large aperture over everything else and arguably favours certain f/ratios (e.g. not too fast for aberrations, but not such a long focal length that limits any low mags). AP favours fast f/ratios and the best tracking you can manage, with aperture being as large as you can afford with good tracking. There are middle grounds that work e.g. a 150mm apo on a good mount, a large reflector on a good mount but these middle grounds are incredibly expensive and don’t fit your requirements anyway, either being too small an aperture or too heavy/unwieldy a set up. 

The issue is that whilst you can take photos with GOTO dobs and have good visual experiences with small scopes, neither are optimised for those purposes so it’s very difficult to recommend options without feeling you’re likely to be disappointed in one aspect or another with your very strict and expansive requirements. Note that you have also asked for improvements in detail and quality of views. Detail in DSOs is by far dominated by light pollution. Andromeda from my bortle 7 skies will look like a big grey smudge from 50mm of aperture right up to probably 250mm or more. Regarding planets, seeing is the dominant factor. 6” of aperture let’s you push well into most average places’ seeing atmospheric conditions, magnification-wise. Larger scopes will show you more detail to a certain extent, but they will be more affected by seeing and the magnification will be limited by the atmosphere unless you live somewhere with fantastic conditions. Improvements will be there but planetary detail is subtle so you have to be realistic! 

Hope I haven’t pooped on the party too much but I know if I was in your position I’d want someone to be upfront with whether my expectations were realistic. With some compromises you can be very satisfied, but I feel as though right now you’re on the path to be let down in one aspect or another. 

Best of luck!

Very honest reply there. The main question is do you want to be a visual observer or an astrophotography?.

Astrophotography is about the most expensive road to take. It's more about the mount than the scope. Visual is more about the scope than the mount. 

 

[AlcorAlly]

9 hours ago, LukeSkywatcher said:

For me personally (being a wheelchair user), until a few yrs ago, the biggest aperture scope I had and able to manage was a Heritage 130P. Brilliant scope, but I wanted MORE. 

I did research, and asked people what would be best for me. The conclusion was a Celestron 8se. 

I love the scope. I'm purely visual, so it ticks that box. It's light and easy to set up. It ticks that box. It's not overly expensive. That's another box ticked.

My point IS, that even a modest jump in aperture (in my case 130mm-200mm) was a giant leap for me with regards to observing. 

I now have an 8" scope that I can single handedly carry outside and set up on my own, without having to rely on anyone for help. 

I'm not suggesting that you buy an 8se (although it's a good choice).

I bought something that works for me. My 1st scope was a 90mm refractor on an EQ mount. I found it difficult to use, so it was only used a handful of times. The best scope is one you will use often.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. The Celesteon SE does sound like a very good option, offering an increase in aperture whilst maintaining compact and manageable form. I will look into it. And yes, you’re right, 6 to 8 may provide a sufficient increase in aperture for to be a noticeable step up. I shouldn’t dismiss the 8 inch options. 

[AlcorAlly]

@sorrimen Thank you so much for taking the time to write this response. It is hugely helpful. 

10 hours ago, sorrimen said:

You’re asking a lot i.e. basically everything you can ask for in a scope. Portability, ease of set up, both visual and AP, significantly better than 6” of aperture, and to top it all off not too expensive

Well, I don’t need a GoTo because I love finding the objects myself. So that’s one thing that can be compromised on. I’m also prepared to pay for the right scope. I just need to know how much an all rounder like this would cost so I can decide if it is worth saving up for. Of course, I would rather not pay more than I need to or get to a point where I start seeing diminishing returns. 

In short, I want a better quality visual experience than my Heritage. Not miles better, just a noticeable difference, an upgrade. And I want the telescope to be relatively easy to move around and handle. Something simple. And ideally (that’s a bonus) I want to have the option to replace the mount later to make it suitable for AP in the future.

I thought that perhaps SCs or higher end refractors could offer me that but it appears not. 

10 hours ago, sorrimen said:

6” of aperture let’s you push well into most average places’ seeing atmospheric conditions, magnification-wise. Larger scopes will show you more detail to a certain extent, but they will be more affected by seeing and the magnification will be limited by the atmosphere

I’m concerned about this too. I’m in Bortle 5 area. Andromeda is a smudge but clusters and double stars are very beautiful from here, and so are the planets. Also my Hertitage frames everything so well with the 7 and 11mm eyepieces. I just want a little more detail to enjoy the viewing from where I am, without having to travel. 

For example, I’d love to be able to resolve objects like the double double, see the banding on Jupiter more clearly, see M13 with a bit more sparkle of individual stars. It always feels like I’m just outside of my ability to resolve some of the objects... Higher powers don’t solve it for me with the Heritage, everything just gets dark and noisy and I start loosing detail above 100x. Just a few examples to explain what I’m after.

Edited October 4, 2022 by craftui

[AlcorAlly]

9 hours ago, LukeSkywatcher said:

Very honest reply there. The main question is do you want to be a visual observer or an astrophotography?.

Astrophotography is about the most expensive road to take. It's more about the mount than the scope. Visual is more about the scope than the mount. 

 

The answer is visual observer. I just like planning for the future but perhaps this is not the right thing to do here. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by craftui
Typo

[AlcorAlly]

I'm now also considering Sky-Watcher Explorer 200P or Bresser Messier NT-203 with an EQ5 mount. The OTA in SW is just under 9kg, so should still manageable. 

And later I can buy a polar scope and motor drives if needed. Yes, AP would be limited (although Chris did some great experiments) but still easier than a dob? The EQ5 mount can also be used with my Heritage, which is a plus. However, I've never owned an EQ mount so I'm not sure how time consuming and awkward it is to set up compared to placing an 8 inch dob on its mount. Judging by this video it is quite a bit more effort for one person. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by craftui

[lvan]

If you value comfort and ease of use i'd steer well clear of an equatorially mounted 8" newt.

 

[AlcorAlly]

25 minutes ago, lvan said:

If you value comfort and ease of use i'd steer well clear of an equatorially mounted 8" newt.

 

Yes! I guess that option is out then…

[cwis]

2 hours ago, craftui said:

Andromeda is a smudge but clusters and double stars are very beautiful from here, and so are the planets. Also my Hertitage frames everything so well with the 7 and 11mm eyepieces. I just want a little more detail to enjoy the viewing from where I am, without having to travel. 

For example, I’d love to be able to resolve objects like the double double, see the banding on Jupiter more clearly, see M13 with a bit more sparkle of individual stars. It always feels like I’m just outside of my ability to resolve some of the objects... Higher powers don’t solve it for me with the Heritage, everything just gets dark and noisy and I start loosing detail above 100x. Just a few examples to explain what I’m after.

I'm in a BortIe 5 area and went from a 5 inch newt on a goto to a 10 inch dob so I might have some useful input...

Yup - it's better. Much better. More light, more resolution. Sharper larger planets. Barges on Jupiter! Big red spot! Deeper resolution of clusters! Colour in clusters! Amazing moon! Craters less than 3km across!  E and F in Orion! 

When the sky is perfect that is...

So most of the time it's better. Slightly better. Only slightly. Andromeda is still a smudge. It's a bigger brighter smudge. Get a really clear dark night and you see some structure. 5 nights in the last year perhaps?

I can split the double double with my 5 inch on a good night. On an average or poor night the 10 inch struggles with it... It's all about the seeing.

The maximum practical resolution of my 10 inch is 500x I think. In a vacuum. On the average evening it's more like 150-180 depending on your target. Planets 200 maybe? I think I've used more than 250 on Jupiter once in the last 2 viewing seasons, and more than 300 on the moon exactly once ever. 

Stick a reasonably high mag eyepiece in your current telescope - say 200 times. Look at a bright star. Can you see the Airy disk? No? Just a wobbly squiggle in the sky? Your telescope is better than the seeing at that point then. A bigger one won't help...

[PeterC65]

This is a bit of a curved ball, but have you thought about getting an astro camera and doing EEVA?

My AZ GOTO mount limits me to 5kg telescopes which means no more than 6", and like you I'd been hankering after more aperture in order to get a significant visual improvement. I even did the research and settled on a 12" GOTO Dob, but that is big and expensive, and doesn't give me a mount upgrade that I can use with other scopes.

So instead, I bought a second hand astro camera, and using that with my existing scopes (mainly the 72mm APO) I get to see way more than I've been able to with pure visual. Yes, I'm sat at the laptop and somewhat detached from the sky, but I'm seeing things close to live and only capture snapshots of the live stacked targets that I see on the night, as a record for my observing reports. When I say 'way more' I mean I can see the detail in M33, the shadow belts in M31, the colour in M27.

It's no good for the Moon and planets though as you need to post process the captured images. What's possible on the night is no better than what I can see visually, and probably not as good as with the binoviewer.

I see EEVA as another tool to complement my other visual observing tools, and the cameras are cheaper, and much smaller, than a new scope.

[sorrimen]

Being able to compromise on GOTO is extremely helpful. I was under the impression that when you said adapt for AP you meant without changing mount or scope. Being open to buying a new mount is a game changer, although would be fairly expensive if you get a suitable visual scope. A C9.25, like the one used on the classifieds could be good, or even a C8 for less of an upgrade. 

In reality, if you’re willing to compromise on GOTO and would be open to buying a new mount for AP, I think your best bet is a manual 10” or 12” dob. You lose the ability to upgrade for AP, but the amount of money you save over a sufficiently mounted C9.25 or C8 means you have plenty left over if you ever wanted to get into AP. You could then buy a small frac and mount, with suitable cameras and guiding etc. which combined with the dob would come in at around the same price or even less than the AP suitable C9.25 (or C8?). Importantly, with the SCT focal length your 7mm and 11mm aren’t super useable compared to a newt.

No need to faff around with EQ mounts for visual use (polar aligning, star alignment etc.), just plop the scope down and you’re ready to go. It means you get the best of both worlds, retain your eyepiece usage, can do both visual and AP at the same time, and to top it all off it’s likely to be cheaper!

My line of thinking is C9.25 (used classified £1300) plus mount £2000-3000, let’s say £3000 total. New eyepieces needed increases cost, and targets for AP limited by focal length. 

Brand new 12” StellaLyra dob £849 (new and 12” is the most expensive combo, so used 10” could be as little as £300), WO Zenithstar 73 (£635) and HEQ5 (£1000). Total cost £2500, and that’s the most expensive iteration of the manual dob. Get to keep your eyepieces as useable, larger aperture and a whole different set up for AP for you to do both simultaneously if you wish. 

Neither include cameras but that’s for if you want to get into AP. If you don’t ever want to, with the second option you’ve lost nothing by having a worse performing £3000 visual scope. 

Interested what others think of this plan.

 

[AlcorAlly]

@sorrimen This is such a helpful, detailed and clear explanation – exactly what I needed, thank you.

[AlcorAlly]

23 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

This is a bit of a curved ball, but have you thought about getting an astro camera and doing EEVA?

My AZ GOTO mount limits me to 5kg telescopes which means no more than 6", and like you I'd been hankering after more aperture in order to get a significant visual improvement. I even did the research and settled on a 12" GOTO Dob, but that is big and expensive, and doesn't give me a mount upgrade that I can use with other scopes.

So instead, I bought a second hand astro camera, and using that with my existing scopes (mainly the 72mm APO) I get to see way more than I've been able to with pure visual. Yes, I'm sat at the laptop and somewhat detached from the sky, but I'm seeing things close to live and only capture snapshots of the live stacked targets that I see on the night, as a record for my observing reports. When I say 'way more' I mean I can see the detail in M33, the shadow belts in M31, the colour in M27.

It's no good for the Moon and planets though as you need to post process the captured images. What's possible on the night is no better than what I can see visually, and probably not as good as with the binoviewer.

I see EEVA as another tool to complement my other visual observing tools, and the cameras are cheaper, and much smaller, than a new scope.

Very interesting idea, something I haven't considered yet because my job involves sitting at a computer all day, so I try to avoid doing it outside work. But it could be a nice transition to AP! 

[AlcorAlly]

1 hour ago, cwis said:

Stick a reasonably high mag eyepiece in your current telescope - say 200 times. Look at a bright star. Can you see the Airy disk? No? Just a wobbly squiggle in the sky? Your telescope is better than the seeing at that point then. A bigger one won't help...

Thank you for sharing your perspective and experience @cwis - enormously helpful.

Well, I'm not sure what an "Airy disk" looks like but when I stuck a 5mm eyepiece into Heritage a while ago I really didn't like what I saw. So I replaced it with a 7mm and concluded that's the highest power I should use on most nights. Would I be able to increase power with an 8 or 10 inch? Because my 7mm would yield 170x or more at that point - would it look better than Heritage what showed at 150x with a 5mm? I imagine so because it would gather more light to compensate for higher power? But I maybe completely wrong, in which case I'd need to replace my treasured 7mm 😢.  

Edited October 4, 2022 by craftui

[sorrimen]

You’re more than welcome, though I would still wait for what others have to say about my suggestions just in case there’s a good option I’ve missed.

Regarding your eyepiece question. 150x in your scope is a 1mm exit pupil. In my experience, at 1mm you will maybe start to see some of the ‘noise’ you talk about but on planets it should be useable, and most people’s comfortable views are at the 0.7-8mm levels. For the same exit pupil on an 8” scope, you need 200x, and 250x on a 10”. 170x in an 8” will be brighter than 150x in your 150p.

I suspect there may be other issues at hand. It may be that your eyesight is hindering you, or it may be that you need to practice using those smaller exit pupils to be able to see past the ‘noise’ or floaters. If it is your eyesight, 10” will be safe for most atmospheric average maximums. 

You will also want to ensure good collimation. If you’re out of collimation, you may have issues with illuminating your eyepieces or getting a good crisp image at high mags. I would imagine if you’re out enough, 1mm may be more uncomfortable than it should be.

[AlcorAlly]

32 minutes ago, sorrimen said:

Regarding your eyepiece question. 150x in your scope is a 1mm exit pupil. In my experience, at 1mm you will maybe start to see some of the ‘noise’ you talk about but on planets it should be useable, and most people’s comfortable views are at the 0.7-8mm levels.

The view was.. hmm.. how do I explain it? Claustrophobic I suppose. It felt as if I was lying deep in a hole underground looking up at the sky. Everything was extremely dark except for the very bright objects - Jupiter in my case. As for Jupiter, I could only see it for a moment before I had to nudge the scope again to follow it and the image was sort of "on fire" - not a pleasing sight. I'm in my 30s and the eyesight is still ok, fortunately. As for the collimation, I think it is good ?(image attached) So I concluded I just don't enjoy the high power views in my scope and don't find them as beautiful and pleasing as the peaceful and harmonious 7mm and 11mm views. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by craftui

[cwis]

1 hour ago, craftui said:

Thank you for sharing your perspective and experience @cwis - enormously helpful.

Well, I'm not sure what an "Airy disk" looks like but when I stuck a 5mm eyepiece into Heritage a while ago I really didn't like what I saw. So I replaced it with a 7mm and concluded that's the highest power I should use on most nights. Would I be able to increase power with an 8 or 10 inch? Because my 7mm would yield 170x or more at that point - would it look better than Heritage what showed at 150x with a 5mm? I imagine so because it would gather more light to compensate for higher power? But I maybe completely wrong, in which case I'd need to replace my treasured 7mm 😢.  

Have a read of this:

https://calgary.rasc.ca/seeing.htm

On a perfect still clear night, the stars through the telescope look like blobs, with a ring round them. You may see more than one ring, I never have. It's basically a diffraction pattern.

The larger diameter the telescope, the smaller the blobs and rings for the same magnification, as the resolution of the telescope increases it resolves the point light source of the stars more accurately, if you will. And of course they will be brighter.

On more normal nights with poor seeing, the wibble from the atmosphere interferes with the starlight and the patterns start to move - the blob wiggles about and the rings break and reform. That page I linked has very accurate simulations and tables showing various scales for estimating seeing - others may disagree but what I expect in the UK when I step outside on an average clear night is a Pickering 4 or 5 - or "Poor" seeing. This btw will make Jupiter look like it's on fire as your description states - so you were using too much magnification for the seeing you were experiencing. 

Winding back the mag decreases the wobble and sharpens the image. But it obviously makes everything smaller!

@sorrimen makes some very good points about exit pupil too but you're probably too young to have to deal with too many floaters etc so this probably isn't the issue you were experiencing. What 5mm eyepiece did you try, out of interest? It wasn't a Plossl was it?