New engines for space travel?

[DaveS]

Following my thoughts from a post in the now-locked thread got me wondering.

Our current bunch of rockets, even with developments, are still at the dug-out canoe level, and what improvements we've made are no more than polishing the outside and adding some varnish. Ion drive is a bit better but still nowhere good enough to really open up the solar system.

I'm leaving out interstellar travel here, though if we want to explore the Oort Cloud then we will need something close. Even the Kuiper belt will need something a *lot* better than we already have.

So where do people think technology will go?

Nuclear Thermal? Barely a step up from our current dug-out canoes.

VASIMR? looks much better

Epstein aneutronic fusion? Now we're really getting speculative

Other forms of fusion / plasma drives? eg Fatima Ebrahimi's plasmoid drive?

The totally barking Nuclear Salt Water rocket? High thrust *and* high Isp. But do you want to ride a continuously exploding atomic bomb, leaving a hugely radioactive trail behind you?

Antimatter rocket? Very high performance, but would need a massive increase in the efficiency of antimatter factories.

I'm leaving out the woo-woo drives like the EM Drive or the Mach Drive, both of which break the laws of physics.

A down-rated form of Warp Drive *might* be possible. It doesn't as such break physics / maths, but may still be impractical.

Any other thoughts?

A few Youtube channels

Scott Manley

The Angry Astronaut

And now for something that will need your voodoo filter set to 11. But remember Clarke's second "law"

AstronX

 

[Zeta Reticulan]

TBH I think it would have to take a huge breakthrough in something or other. The distances are just too vast for solar system exploration to become as casual as contemporary Earth based aviation for example. Space is big. I believe Jupiter is forty light minutes away, and technically that's in our backyard. 

[DaveS]

Aviation equivalent? No, unlikely, but C18 / 19 sea travel, maybe.

NSWR (Technically possible with today's technology) would get us anywhere in the solar system in short order, but might also be a good way of getting dead.

[DaveL59]

While something like plasma or ion drive sound or can be made to sound feasible, seems to me there's still a source of 'fuel' of some form involved and that will eventually run out, perhaps long after the energy powering it (solar or whatever else). After all if you are continuously ejecting a stream of ion's or other matter, that's being taken from some component on your spacecraft, isn't it? Unless we can perhaps capture sufficient of the mythical space dust in the intake scoops and by charging them up then energetically eject them out the back to give us a push along toward the destination. Acceleration would sure be slow and of course so would being able to brake since we're talking miniscule mass vs the bulk of the vessel involved.

Edited August 25, 2022 by DaveL59

[DaveS]

That sounds like the Bussard ramjet, which has been shown to be a very good *Brake* rather than drive.

[DaveL59]

Was thinking too, for smaller orbital stuff, wonders if they can scale up something along the lines of the Jet d'eau on lake Geneva and hydraulically fling stuff up there rather than burning fuel? 😉 

Edited August 25, 2022 by DaveL59

[Zeta Reticulan]

Isn't NSWR theoretical? Like warp drive or something?

[Nik271]

Solar sails and orbital transfers, slow and steady is my bet.

[DaveS]

NSWR

From Wiki

And Scott Manley

[DaveS]

4 minutes ago, Nik271 said:

Solar sails and orbital transfers, slow and steady is my bet.

But only if you have a longer life expectancy than our mayfly 100 years.

And solar sails ain't gonna work out in the Kuiper belt.

Edited August 25, 2022 by DaveS

[DaveS]

So it's gone quiet.

Does that mean people aren't interested in space exploration / travel?

If we're going to put bigger telescopes in L2, or better still, out in the outer solar system away from the zodiacal light pollution, then we're going to need *much* better engines to reduce transit delays to days, or weeks at the most. Especially if we're thinking of sending a maintenance crew at any time.

[Zeta Reticulan]

12 minutes ago, DaveS said:

 

Does that mean people aren't interested in space exploration / travel?

 

That would be my guess.

[iapa]

generation ships for further outbound travel, and/or hibernation?

The drive isn't as much of a problem then, though by the time the destination is reached a faster method will have been developed.

I personally like the idea of reducing inertia.

For any improved drive system there would need to be consideration to the increased effect of friction, and also high velocity impacts. Could we get to speeds where individual atoms would have a noticeable effect on impact?

 

 

[DaveL59]

8 minutes ago, iapa said:

generation ships for further outbound travel, and/or hibernation?

The drive isn't as much of a problem then, though by the time the destination is reached a faster method will have been developed.

I personally like the idea of reducing inertia.

For any improved drive system there would need to be consideration to the increased effect of friction, and also high velocity impacts. Could we get to speeds where individual atoms would have a noticeable effect on impact?

 

 

Can imagine a time when a generational ship already en-route say 3/4 the way there and then a newer faster ship is sent out, overtakes it and that crew is sat around drinking their coffee or whatever when the older ship arrives expecting to be the first. Conversation along the lines of "hey what took you so long..." 😉 

Edited August 26, 2022 by DaveL59

[iapa]

I just read a brief article on elctroosmosis through nanotubes where an electrolyte is accelerated through the non tube procuing thrust, the more nano-tubs in the array, the greater the thrust.

 

[iapa]

16 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

Can imagine a time when a generational ship already en-route say 3/4 the way there and then a newer faster ship is sent out, overtakes it and that crew is sat around drinking their coffee or whatever when the older ship arrives expecting to be the first. Conversation along the lines of "hey what took you so long..." 😉 

I've read that one somewhere 

Didn't Niven also use that plot his 'Tales of Known Space' works.

 

Edit: A E Van Vogt's short story "Far Centaurus"

Edited August 26, 2022 by iapa

[DaveS]

I was leaving interstellar travel out of the picture for the time being, as being too problematic.Jjust getting around the Solar System in a sensible time frame will be a challenge enough for the time being. Unless Warp Drives really do turn out to be possible and feasible.

However, in the meantime have a look at this video from PBS Space-time.

 

[DaveL59]

19 minutes ago, iapa said:

I've read that one somewhere 

Didn't Niven also use that plot his 'Tales of Known Space' works.

 

Edit: A E Van Vogt's short story "Far Centaurus"

Dunno but I've used that line when meeting folks somewhere and getting there well ahead even after setting off later 😉 

[Louis D]

27 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

Can imagine a time when a generational ship already en-route say 3/4 the way there and then a newer faster ship is sent out, overtakes it and that crew is sat around drinking their coffee or whatever when the older ship arrives expecting to be the first. Conversation along the lines of "hey what took you so long..." 😉 

Stargate:  Atlantis (TV series) covered this in an episode.  The original inhabitants of Atlantis in the Pegasus galaxy leave on a ship thousands of years ago at just under light speed for the Milky Way galaxy (apparently due to their hyperdrive being damaged in battle).  They age very slowly thanks to time dilation.  Our intrepid Earthlings are traveling between galaxies thanks to various borrowed alien technologies when they detect a ship traveling at near light speed.  They investigate.  They bring the Lanteans up to speed on what has happened since they left, and they make the decision to hitch a ride back to Atlantis and order the Earthlings to vacate the premises.  I won't go into what happens next to them.

[iapa]

It's posing some the same issues I just did

OK, leaving interstellar traffic out for the time being, it still seems that we need something to 'protect' the forward facing surfaces, even for journeys to the Jovian satellites.

I expect that means massively dense materials, and more power required to overcome inertia, force fields or something like graphene?. c.f. Theodore Sturgeon's story ‘It Was Nothing—Really!’, inventor find perorated paper never tears on the perforations and concluded the holes are stronger.

Force fields would probably be electromagnetic in nature, weak, strong and gravitation forces won't cut it.

So, electro-osmotic drive, with electo-magnetic shielding. Job done

Except the former needs improved nanotube manufacture, could maybe do that on a space station on near zero g? But could get as much thrust as you need, the paper suggested >90% efficiency.

The latter may well depend on CERN producing more exotic particles, or is dark matter a possibility - if anyone knew what it was

 

[markse68]

Epstein drive? I shouldn't have but it made me chuckle when I first saw it

 

 

[DaveS]

This is the Epstein drive from AstronX. Just barely this side of voodoo science.

 

[Mandy D]

1 hour ago, DaveS said:

This is the Epstein drive from AstronX. Just barely this side of voodoo science.

 

What is it's optical design and focal ratio? Looks like some kind of RC to me. Can I stick my ASI178MM on the back of it, please? 🤣

[Alien 13]

How about a nice trip at 1G provided an engine could provide a constant thrust for a prolonged period, Mars in a couple of days and the nearest star in a few years simple 😀

Alan

[DaveS]

1G for 1 year gives you lightspeed, near enough.

Gotta love AstronX, just one step short of being awa' wi' the fairies.