Are Starlight Xpress dead in the water?

[Adam J]

I hear very little from this company, they seemingly have not brought out a new camera in years. I know they tried to release a CMOS range featuring the IMX304 sensor and a couple of others such as a cooled IMX290 design. But it appear that those cameras are no longer available on FLOs webpage and there is no mention of them on Starlight Xpress's own web page either. When there are plenty of excellent CMOS sensors on the market currently that seemingly outperform the SONY CCD range that they are still selling. I have got to wonder if they have given up? Atik at least are still releasing some new cameras although it seemed to take them an age to release their APX60 at a much higher cost than it was originally advertised at. 

All the talk currently is about ZWO, QHY and even the likes of Rising Cam. Starlight Xpress and ATIK where dominant only 7 years back when I started the hobby. So my question is has anyone recently purchased a new Starlight Xpress camera? Or is it the case as it seems to me that the Chinese CMOS cameras have killed off European astronomy camera manufacturing to the point that some of these companies are dead men walking? 

Adam

 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Adam J

[Dr_Ju_ju]

Maybe Olly Penrice as well as FLO can give an answer ?? 

[DaveS]

This is a question I've been asking myself for some time now.

My first astro camera was a SX Trius 694, and very good it was (Still is) too, but the sensor and pixel count it a bit low for me now. I did consider a SX 46 when I was speccing out the ODK, but the costs became silly.

I fear they may have missed the CMOS boat and been left behind.

[FLO]

Quote

Are Starlight Xpress dead in the water? 

No. They are NOT dead in the water 🙂 

2 hours ago, Dr_Ju_ju said:

Maybe Olly Penrice as well as FLO can give an answer ?? 

Starlight Xpress (like many other UK companies) are of course affected by the arrival of Chinese-manufactured brands but they saw it coming (Sky-Watcher did same to the telescope and mount market) so were prepared. I.e. they also manufacture cameras for the scientific community and industrial imaging, not only for us astronomers.

This is good because Michael, Gill & Terry are some of the nicest people you are ever likely to meet and their company is now the 'only' (please correct me if I am wrong) astronomy camera manufacturer in the UK. 

They have a number of new astronomy cameras in development, hopefully for release later this year, and will be attending Herstmonceux, IAS and at least one other event (soon to be revealed). 

HTH, 

Steve 

[Adam J]

53 minutes ago, FLO said:

Their company is now the 'only' (please correct me if I am wrong) astronomy camera manufacturer in the UK. 

Hopefully this is not too political a statement for SGL but for many reasons I have the option I would rather buy from a local company than China. It seems that currently I don't have that option if I want a modern CMOS camera.  So I think you can excuse my concern Steve when its been 3-4 years since Starlight Xpress released the Blue pro model CCD cameras. With no public announcements of new products since then that I am aware of I doubt that I am the only one left wondering. 

I would rather see a UK company succeed than fail so if this is not the case I will look forward to seeing new products from them soon and hope that they are competitively priced (not that I would expect Chinese prices mind you). 

What I would say is that when I spoke to them at the practical astronomy show this year, representatives of both ATIK and Starlight Xpress admitted in hushed tones that they had been wrong footed by the move of the market to CMOS sensors. Lets hope they correct that. 

Adam 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Adam J

[newbie alert]

2 hours ago, Adam J said:

I hear very little from this company, they seemingly have not brought out a new camera in years. I know they tried to release a CMOS range featuring the IMX304 sensor and a couple of others such as a cooled IMX290 design. But it appear that those cameras are no longer available on FLOs webpage and there is no mention of them on Starlight Xpress's own web page either. When there are plenty of excellent CMOS sensors on the market currently that seemingly outperform the SONY CCD range that they are still selling. I have got to wonder if they have given up? Atik at least are still releasing some new cameras although it seemed to take them an age to release their APX60 at a much higher cost than it was originally advertised at. 

All the talk currently is about ZWO, QHY and even the likes of Rising Cam. Starlight Xpress and ATIK where dominant only 7 years back when I started the hobby. So my question is has anyone recently purchased a new Starlight Xpress camera? Or is it the case as it seems to me that the Chinese CMOS cameras have killed off European astronomy camera manufacturing to the point that some of these companies are dead men walking? 

Adam

 

 

Seems like a very one sided attack from the CMOS advocate... Ask yourself the question that they seemed to work a few years ago so what's changed, they still will deliver cracking images and continue to function, guess where the tilt sensor testing idea came from.. no it wasn't u tube.. Do starlight xpress suffer with grease on sensors and expect the customers to clean it off with the potential of dust entering the sensor window, does it take them weeks or months to repair , yes you pay alot more to begin with as UK manufacturing cost far more, plus they have decent customer care.. both atik and starlight xpress don't flood the market with new ranges for only that range to be superceded within months when the latest best thing comes out.. more to a camera than just a sensor as you well know... That's why their cameras cost more .. pretty obvious to me..

The more these silly stabs at ccd have driven down the costs on the used market, not really touched the new costs by much as they can't make them much cheaper.. 

[Adam J]

Just now, newbie alert said:

Seems like a very one sided attack from the CMOS advocate... Ask yourself the question that they seemed to work a few years ago so what's changed, they still will deliver cracking images and continue to function, guess where the tilt sensor testing idea came from.. no it wasn't u tube.. Do starlight xpress suffer with grease on sensors and expect the customers to clean it off with the potential of dust entering the sensor window, does it take them weeks or months to repair , yes you pay alot more to begin with as UK manufacturing cost far more, plus they have decent customer care.. both atik and starlight xpress don't flood the market with new ranges for only that range to be superceded within months when the latest best thing comes out.. more to a camera than just a sensor as you well know... That's why their cameras cost more .. pretty obvious to me..

The more these silly stabs at ccd have driven down the costs on the used market, not really touched the new costs by much as they can't make them much cheaper.. 

Its an observation not an attack. 

[newbie alert]

6 minutes ago, Adam J said:

55 minutes ago, FLO said:

 

Hopefully this is not too political a statement for SGL but for many reasons I have the option I would rather buy from a local company than China. It seems that currently I don't have that option if I want a modern CMOS camera.  So I think you can excuse my concern Steve when its been 3-4 years since Starlight Xpress released the Blue pro model CCD cameras. With no public announcements of new products since then that I am aware of I doubt that I am the only one left wondering. 

I don't think that's true

Do you own any CCD from atik or starlight xpress... Not have you, do you?

[DaveS]

1 hour ago, FLO said:

No. They are NOT dead in the water 🙂 

Starlight Xpress (like many other UK companies) are of course affected by the arrival of Chinese-manufactured brands but they saw it coming (Sky-Watcher did same to the telescope and mount market) so were prepared. I.e. they also manufacture cameras for the scientific community and industrial imaging, not only for us astronomers.

This is good because Michael, Gill & Terry are some of the nicest people you are ever likely to meet and their company is now the 'only' (please correct me if I am wrong) astronomy camera manufacturer in the UK. 

They have a number of new astronomy cameras in development, hopefully for release later this year, and will be attending Herstmonceux, IAS and at least one other event (soon to be revealed). 

HTH, 

Steve 

That's good to read Steve.

[Adam J]

31 minutes ago, newbie alert said:

I don't think that's true

Do you own any CCD from atik or starlight xpress... Not have you, do you?

Technically speaking I have owned a ATIK460EX for about two months before selling it on, that was back in 2019 and even then I could only get £900 for it on the used market, but I also have close friends who use such cameras and so am sufficiently familiar with them to say they are still excellent cameras. I just would not personally chose to buy one new in 2022. I find its better not to have an emotional attachment to any given technology or manufacturer although there is more to the equation than simply who sells the cheapest camera or the best sensor. Build quality, support, broader infrastructure all count. However, for the future its largely irrelevant SONY are going to stop making CCD sensors, they have literally announced as much and that forces the issue somewhat for any company that only stocks cameras based on SONY CCD sensors. 

Adam

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Adam J

[Adam J]

39 minutes ago, newbie alert said:

The more these silly stabs at ccd have driven down the costs on the used market, not really touched the new costs by much as they can't make them much cheaper.. 

I don't think I have sufficient influence by a long long way to take responsibility for the current prices on the used CDD market.

However, I have been extremely shocked that there is currently an ATIK460EX in the SGL for sale section that is listed at £500 and has not yet sold, that has got to be the deal of the century for someone as while my technical opinion based on the maths is that a similar sized sensor like the IMX533 mono will out perform it, its not by a such big margin so long as you compensate for the higher read noise by using longer exposures. 

You can be sure that if it doesn't sell I will be pushing someone in its direction at some point in the near future. 

Adam

 

[iantaylor2uk]

Personally I would rather buy a product that is in large scale mass production than buy off a local company that only makes a handful of products every year. CMOS astro cameras are essentially riding on the back of good quality sensors used in the very large photography market (Sony, Nikon, Canon cameras etc.). 

[Adam J]

I think we are getting off the original topic, which was essentially me wondering why Starlight Xpress have not brought out any new products in the last 3-4 years and hence if they had stopped development of dedicate astronomy cameras, Steve seems so have answered this.

I only mentioned CMOS products because as far as I know there will be no new CCD products from SONY and hence any new products will be CMOS based by default.

It was not my intention to open another CCD vs CMOS debate. 

Adam

Edited August 18, 2022 by Adam J

[newbie alert]

2 hours ago, Adam J said:

I don't think I have sufficient influence by a long long way to take responsibility for the current prices on the used CDD market.

However, I have been extremely shocked that there is currently an ATIK460EX in the SGL for sale section that is listed at £500 and has not yet sold, that has got to be the deal of the century for someone as while my technical opinion based on the maths is that a similar sized sensor like the IMX533 mono will out perform it, its not by a such big margin so long as you compensate for the higher read noise by using longer exposures. 

You can be sure that if it doesn't sell I will be pushing someone in its direction at some point in the near future. 

Adam

 

Think you answered your own answer there, problem is with people obsessed with dimising the CCD if enough people repeat what's being said some people think it's true and then often repeat the same thing even though some have never owned or used a CCD.. we all know that someday it will happen, but forcing the issues won't help anyone especially those who's majority of their business is selling ccd

A friend who has various CCD and CMOS has told me that he sees the CMOS data as thin compares the 533 to the 414, but nowhere near the 460 or 383... These are  live tests and not maths related , I have a huge respect for him and the way he processes his images, CCD or cmos

"You can be sure that if it doesn't sell I will be pushing someone in its direction at some point in the near future. 

Adam"

Yes I've enquired into that particular camera with David as I love a 460, but as I've also enquired into a few others around the same time, it's nice to have a bit of a choice.. a 460 for the same ish price as a 314 from not so long ago, bargain..

 

[newbie alert]

2 hours ago, iantaylor2uk said:

Personally I would rather buy a product that is in large scale mass production than buy off a local company that only makes a handful of products every year. CMOS astro cameras are essentially riding on the back of good quality sensors used in the very large photography market (Sony, Nikon, Canon cameras etc.). 

Really, so you would rather Renault Clio to a Aston Martin or a Lamborghini?

[newbie alert]

3 hours ago, Adam J said:

I think we are getting off the original topic, which was essentially me wondering why Starlight Xpress have not brought out any new products in the last 3-4 years and hence if they had stopped development of dedicate astronomy cameras, Steve seems so have answered this.

I only mentioned CMOS products because as far as I know there will be no new CCD products from SONY and hence any new products will be CMOS based by default.

It was not my intention to open another CCD vs CMOS debate. 

Adam

Not too sure on why that's any concern of you..

Why don't you just let them get on with development of there next generation cameras, they're not the high volume mass production market, zwo have that pretty much cornered

Starlight xpress, atik, QSI, Sbig, FlI all have low volume high quality end sorted

If you want to support a UK based camera manufacturer then buy one of their cameras.. simples..

No it's not a CCD/ CMOS debate, but which came first.. the chicken or the egg...

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, newbie alert said:

Not too sure on why that's any concern of you..

Ok now your just being rude. But for the record it's my opinion that well educated and informed consumers holding companies to account is beneficial to the hobby as a whole. The idea that we as consumers should lay back and be grateful for what we are given is not one I can subscribe to. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Adam J

[newbie alert]

17 minutes ago, Adam J said:

Ok now your just being rude. But for the record it's my opinion that well educated and informed consumers holding companies to account is beneficial to the hobby as a whole. The idea that we as consumers should lay back and be grateful for what we are given is not one I can subscribe to. 

How do you mean holding companies to account? 

Are you saying you want to hold SX to account over something?

Im sure that you have no influence on what gets made and how..

Edited August 18, 2022 by newbie alert
Added info

[Adam J]

27 minutes ago, newbie alert said:

How do you mean holding companies to account? 

Are you saying you want to hold SX to account over something?

In essence yes, I am saying that I am disappointed as a consumer that in the last 3-4 years SX have only brought out a Blue version of a camera they originally released quite some years before that. Given that undisputable fact coupled with the fact that I may be interested in a IMX533 based camera in the next few years I am asking myself and others here if I should expect anything from SX in the future. Because if not then I am forced to buy from someone else offering the product that I am interested in. If anyone for SX happens to read this thread (doubt they will) I am saying to them that I am interested in buying from a UK company with UK support but am not interested in their current camera line up, but they can have my money if they updated their product range. Most good companies would accept that as constructive and valued customer feedback. 

I get the impression that you are a fan of their products, are you saying that if they bring out new CMOS products you would not be interested in them? 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Adam J

[Adam J]

46 minutes ago, newbie alert said:

Im sure that you have no influence on what gets made and how..

Yet according to you I am responsible for destroying the used CCD market. Can't have it both ways. 

But as above the original point of the thread was to establish if SX are still a active player in thee astronomy camera market, a valid question given their lack of new products recently.  Again, Steve has answered that question and now we know they intend to release some new cameras and I have learnt something as a result of this thread. 

This business about trying to influence them or tell them what to do is a departure for that original topic and irrelevant now we know they will release new CMOS products. But in the event they are listening, IMX533 please. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Adam J

[Skipper Billy]

I have owned a SX SXV-H9, an Atik 314 and 460 and still use a SX Lodestar and have just bought a Lodestar Pro. My main imaging camera is an Atik 16200. 

They were/are all excellent cameras and my 16200 produces images that belie my meagre skills.

I had an issue with one of the Atiks - I think it was the 460 and it was fixed within a week - no charge even though it was well out of warranty.

I also have two ZWO 178 - one of them developed a fault and ZWO said it wasnt worth fixing - throw it away!!!

 

 

 

[andrew s]

I have had several sx cameras and still have one guide camera. I have bought 2 new main cameras recently but found the sx range of CCD cameras could not compete in Quantum Efficiency, Read Noise or down load time compared to the latest CMOS cameras for the high cadence spectroscopy I was going to do. 

It's a pity but I hope they do manage to make the transition.  The more options the better in my opinion .

Regards Andrew 

[Adam J]

33 minutes ago, Skipper Billy said:

I have owned a SX SXV-H9, an Atik 314 and 460 and still use a SX Lodestar and have just bought a Lodestar Pro. My main imaging camera is an Atik 16200. 

They were/are all excellent cameras and my 16200 produces images that belie my meagre skills.

I had an issue with one of the Atiks - I think it was the 460 and it was fixed within a week - no charge even though it was well out of warranty.

I also have two ZWO 178 - one of them developed a fault and ZWO said it wasnt worth fixing - throw it away!!!

 

 

 

Billy I have seen your many images over the years and your skills are far from meagre you are an accomplished imager. You may not recall but back when you purchased your 16200 it was me that pointed you towards that model and more specifically the discounted one being offered on the OFFERS section of the FLO webpage. So perhapse I am not as anti SX and ATIK or CCD as some seem to believe. However, despite this if you asked the same questing these years later I would push you towards a IMX571 based camera and am sure others would too. Now that's not to say that the 16200 is not a capable camera today. It's just not the best choice in 2022. 

I am not disputing the quality of the SX product. 

If you have not chucked out that 178 then there is always a chance I can fix it for you. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Adam J

[Richard Wesson]

On 18/08/2022 at 19:29, newbie alert said:

Not too sure on why that's any concern of you..

Why don't you just let them get on with development of there next generation cameras, they're not the high volume mass production market, zwo have that pretty much cornered

Starlight xpress, atik, QSI, Sbig, FlI all have low volume high quality end sorted

If you want to support a UK based camera manufacturer then buy one of their cameras.. simples..

No it's not a CCD/ CMOS debate, but which came first.. the chicken or the egg...

You appear to be reacting as if you have been personally attacked and are becoming overly aggressive and rude. This forum is not the place - the rest of the discussion, including Adam has been quite civilised. 

[Astroscot2]

I recall listening to a podcast by Terry about 10 years ago talking about CMOS chips being the future for astrophotographers. Upto last year I always bought Starlight cameras, their customer service was and probably still is outstanding. I hope they dont fade away

My first CCD was a Starlight camera, seeing Ian Kings ages back in the with early CCDs was a great influence one to move over from film

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Astroscot2