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ZWO/Player One IMX 585 Sensor Image Showcase


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22 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

I see that Player One have announced the recall on their website (here). Not great news, but at least they are dealing with it quickly.

I take it that this is just a Player One issue and doesn't impact ZWO?

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8 minutes ago, Jimbo64 said:

I take it that this is just a Player One issue and doesn't impact ZWO?

Almost certainly, and it only affects a limited batch of Player One Uranus-C cameras, not those currently on sale as I understand it.

While these things are always disappointing, Player One are handling the issue really well. My replacement will be shipped directly from them next week.

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3 hours ago, HEN said:

HI all, i just got ZWOASI585 from FLO collected yesterday , looking forward to play at the weekends,

anyway just to let you know that i notices the Svbony got 128mb mem and zwo got 256 mem ?  strange ?

And sorry for poor english ,deaf,

Hen.

Hi HEN, Welcome to SGL

(LOL - 'Hi Hen' sounds a bit patronising in Scotland!)

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@PeterC65

They told me they will only ship me a replacement after I have returned the faulty one to them (I bought mine directly from them in China, I am in Australia). They wan't me to pay shipping and then pay me back. Have you arranged to get a replacement from them before returning the faulty unit? Are you dealing directly with them, or a distributor? I just checked, and the shop that was selling them in Australia is no longer listing them on their website, so they haven't even got a distributor/dealer here in Australia.

Edited by MichaelBibby
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7 hours ago, MichaelBibby said:

@PeterC65

They told me they will only ship me a replacement after I have returned the faulty one to them (I bought mine directly from them in China, I am in Australia). They wan't me to pay shipping and then pay me back. Have you arranged to get a replacement from them before returning the faulty unit? Are you dealing directly with them, or a distributor? I just checked, and the shop that was selling them in Australia is no longer listing them on their website, so they haven't even got a distributor/dealer here in Australia.

I'm dealing with Player One direct and with the UK distributor, Starfield Optics, who weirdly are based in Canada. As things stand, Player One are shipping me a new camera direct next week and at some point I will need to return the old one to Starfield Optics. I've not been asked to pay for the shipping by Player One. They do say on the website that if there is import duty to pay then they will refund it and perhaps that is what they mean. Starfield Optics are working out the logistics of the return so I don't yet know what that will entail.

 

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Are you using a IR cut filter on your 585 @PeterC65? I suspect it will benefit from one for DSO considering how sensitive it is in IR (should improve resolution and colour reproduction). Forgive me if this is obvious, I am still learning the basics.

Edited by MichaelBibby
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1 hour ago, MichaelBibby said:

Are you using a IR cut filter on your 585 @PeterC65? I suspect it will benefit from one for DSO considering how sensitive it is in IR (should improve resolution and colour reproduction). Forgive me if this is obvious, I am still learning the basics.

I haven't been using an IR cut filter so far, but I have one on order (Astronomik L2). I'm also still learning and have only recently understood why I might want to limit the wavelength range, particularly since I'm leaning towards using just my 72mm APO for EEVA.

I use the Uranus-C with a ZWO electronic filter wheel fitted only with Astronomik filters so that they are parfocal. The electronic filter wheel is a new piece of kit and I love it as it makes filter changing very simple and possible from indoors.

In the wheel at the moment are a clear filter, UHC, OIII and a new ProPlanet 742 IR pass filter. The UHC filter doesn't cut IR but does seem to improve the view of nebulae. It's the one I use for visual where it performs really well. The OIII filter is also good for some nebulae (the Veil), but it turns everything green / blue, and so I generally prefer the UHC filtered view.

I haven't had a chance to use the IR pass filter at night yet, but the hope is that it will stop the Moon and planets from wobbling. EEVA seems to be less useful for the Moon and planets as stacking doesn't seem to be possible and I'm hoping that the IR pass filter will change this.

I keep looking at the Optolong L-eXtreme as a possibly better alternative to the Astronomik UHC and OIII filters but it's expensive and I'm not sure that EEVA would be possible with such ultra-narrow pass bands. It would also break the parfocal, or else require a complete change of filters (very expensive).

 

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47 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

I keep looking at the Optolong L-eXtreme as a possibly better alternative to the Astronomik UHC and OIII filters but it's expensive

It sure is, but who knows, it might get you hooked on AP as you are stacking already.  Not that big of a leap in the acquisition process. Post-processing is another story and perhaps something to do in cloudy winter nights.

Might want to look in to IDAS NBZ as it has no star halos.

Edited by Dark Raven
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21 minutes ago, Dark Raven said:

It sure is, but who knows, it might get you hooked on AP as you are stacking already.  Not that big of a leap in the acquisition process. Post-processing is another story and perhaps something to do in cloudy winter nights.

Might want to look in to IDAS NBZ as it has no star halos.

I'm coming at EEVA from purely visual. It's just a way to stop me lusting after larger aperture scopes! I like that I can stay inside in the warm, share the experience, and observe DSOs even when the Moon is bright, but I don't think I will venture into AP. 

It seems to me that AP is a different hobby, different kit, mostly a data capture operation on the night, with most of the effort in post processing.

That's why I'm unsure about the L-eXtreme. It isn't going to be used for AP, only EEVA, and it's not clear whether it is useful for EEVA.

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7 hours ago, MichaelBibby said:

Given the sensitivity of this camera in near IR, it will be interesting to compare galaxies with IR cut and IR pass filters...

Yes, I'm looking forward to testing what happens at different parts of the IR band. It has occurred to me that I can test whether the Astronomik UHC filter would benefit from IR cut by fitting it directly to the camera nosepiece and then switching the filter wheel between the clear filter and the L2 filter.

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From my EAA session last night under the half moon. Scope is a 8" F5 on Heq5-pro, unguided, shot at native resolution (a bit oversampled), with UV/IR cut filter. 120 10 second exposures at a gain of 250 (no post processing).


Stack_120frames_1200s_WithDisplayStretch.thumb.png.c217670e110aca322b42bafb5f7343b5.png

Edited by MichaelBibby
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Also from last night, the Great Barred Spiral. There's a bit of 'walking noise' on this shot, might have a play around with 'dithering without guiding' on Sharpcap. This is 689 frames of 11 seconds (not sure gain setting, i seem to have deleted the file and can't remember, I think about 375?). I haven't applied flats or darks on any of these images. I'm a complete novice to astro imagining, so my images are not a good reflection of the capabilities of the camera.

Stack_689frames_7579s_WithDisplayStretch.png

Edited by MichaelBibby
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2 hours ago, MichaelBibby said:

From my EAA session last night under the half moon. Scope is a 8" F5 on Heq5-pro, unguided, shot at native resolution (a bit oversampled), with UV/IR cut filter. 120 10 second exposures at a gain of 250 (no post processing).


Stack_120frames_1200s_WithDisplayStretch.thumb.png.c217670e110aca322b42bafb5f7343b5.png

Wow! M42 has yet to arrive in the evening sky here in the UK but I'm awaiting it with even more anticipation haven't seen what you've achieved with your 585.

 

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4 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

Wow! M42 has yet to arrive in the evening sky here in the UK but I'm awaiting it with even more anticipation haven't seen what you've achieved with your 585.

 


I saw it rising on the Eastern horizon about midnight and had to take a quick look before packing up and going to bed. Can't wait to image all the nebula in the Orion Spur/Perseus arm of the Milky Way this summer, and then the Sagittarius arm next winter! The winter night sky in Australia is incredible, in the words of Carl Sagan [said in a thick Sagan accent] "Not a sun rise, but a galaxy rise; the rise of billion suns!"

 

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4 hours ago, Trippelforge said:

So what is the general consensus on ZWO vs Player-One in regards to the IMX585? I was looking at picking up a Uranus-C , but not so sure now.

 

 

Player One have quickly and efficiently replaced my Uranus-C and the replacement works fine. I've not had a chance to point it at the stars yet but I've analysed the sensor and the performance is as specified and I'm looking forward to seeing some even cleaner images. I have no issues with the camera and still maintain that it's lower LCG / HCG switching point is a good thing. Compared to the ZWO version I like that it has passive cooling and that being hexagonal it is easy to orientate the sensor.

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10 hours ago, Trippelforge said:

So what is the general consensus on ZWO vs Player-One in regards to the IMX585? I was looking at picking up a Uranus-C , but not so sure now.

 

 


If your talking about the banding fault that Peter and myself had with the camera, I've already got my replacement. Customer service has been awesome. Apart from that, it seems like the main consideration on deciding between them (as others have mentioned here) is where the high gain cut off point is and how that relates to how you intend to use the camera. The only other small problem I have had a couple of times is a couple of frames being temporarily backed up in sharpcap during live stacking (10s exposures). But this has not been a problem at all and usually resolves itself pretty quickly. Not sure if this effects ZWO's camera, likely a firmware thing (actually, the problem might be with my computer or sharpcap itself, because I've also had the situation where the histogram wouldn't reset straight away but take a minute or so). Apart from that I'm happy with the build quality. (Can't say much else because I'm not experienced with astrophotography).

Edited by MichaelBibby
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14 hours ago, MichaelBibby said:


If your talking about the banding fault that Peter and myself had with the camera, I've already got my replacement. Customer service has been awesome. Apart from that, it seems like the main consideration on deciding between them (as others have mentioned here) is where the high gain cut off point is and how that relates to how you intend to use the camera. The only other small problem I have had a couple of times is a couple of frames being temporarily backed up in sharpcap during live stacking (10s exposures). But this has not been a problem at all and usually resolves itself pretty quickly. Not sure if this effects ZWO's camera, likely a firmware thing (actually, the problem might be with my computer or sharpcap itself, because I've also had the situation where the histogram wouldn't reset straight away but take a minute or so). Apart from that I'm happy with the build quality. (Can't say much else because I'm not experienced with astrophotography).

 

I was looking at all of the charts and not extremely educated on what a lot of it means. I know the basics, but something like "high gain cut off point" I do not (which is prob a basic, lol). My intention is to use it for DSO's, emission nebula, galaxies etc. I never considered these price point models as I got a lot of negative feedback on the mere idea of not dropping 1,000 bucks on one. But then I started to come across conversations and videos about how capable they actually are. 

Anyhow, I only mention all that due to hoping you might be able to tell me a few things to look out for as far as specifications. Like the high gain cut off, what value is the most important for DSOs for instance?

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4 hours ago, Trippelforge said:

 

I was looking at all of the charts and not extremely educated on what a lot of it means. I know the basics, but something like "high gain cut off point" I do not (which is prob a basic, lol). My intention is to use it for DSO's, emission nebula, galaxies etc. I never considered these price point models as I got a lot of negative feedback on the mere idea of not dropping 1,000 bucks on one. But then I started to come across conversations and videos about how capable they actually are. 

Anyhow, I only mention all that due to hoping you might be able to tell me a few things to look out for as far as specifications. Like the high gain cut off, what value is the most important for DSOs for instance?

The specs for the Player One and ZWO versions of IMX585 based cameras are almost identical, since most of the spec is dictated by the sensor itself. The only significant difference is the gain value at which the sensor switches from Low Conversion Gain mode to High Conversion Gain mode which I believe is set in software. For the Uranus-C HCG mode starts at a gain value of 180 (and above), for the ASI585 it starts at 250 (and above). When in HCG mode the read noise reduces and the dynamic range increases, both good things, so most people seem to operate their cameras only in HCG mode and largely ignore LCG mode. For this reason alone, I chose the Player One camera as it offers a wider range of useful gain.

So far in practice I rarely use gains below 250 so the HCG / LCG switching point is moot. Having bought the Uranus-C however, I do find the hexagonal case design useful, and it is well made (and well supported as I have recently discovered). I'm sure the same would be true of the ZWO model.

As others have mentioned, if I'd wanted to use an ASiair (ZWO computer used to control cameras, mounts, etc) then I would have bought the ZWO camera as it doesn't support other makes of astro camera. But I use a simple direct USB connection to a laptop.

Whichever of these cameras you choose, I'd recommend either. There is no amp glow so black is black and you don't need to mess about with collecting dark frames. The sensor size is quite big but not so big that parts of it don't get illuminated and you have to deal with vignetting. The pixel size is smallish so you can see plenty of detail with the right FL scope. The sensor takes 4K images which gives an amazing full frame image (lovely on a 4K monitor) and is enough for you to crop the image or just collect data from a smaller region of interest.

I started with a similarly speced camera but with a smaller (physical and resolution) sensor that suffered from amp glow, and I no longer use it. When I upgraded from that camera, I considered bigger sensor size cameras but settled on the IMX585 and I'm very pleased with it.

 

Edited by PeterC65
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One thing I'd like others to check is coma on a Newtonian without a coma corrector.

I've used my imx 533 sensor with a 130pds and I think the coma is completely acceptable.  This would also be true of the 585.  Not having to buy a coma corrector would be a pretty big saving if you are looking for a budget setup.  The below was about 20 minutes of data so with a small Newtonian and 585 sensor you'd be looking at a setup that could take decent images of multiple objects in a night.

M27 FINAL.jpg

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20 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

The specs for the Player One and ZWO versions of IMX585 based cameras are almost identical, since most of the spec is dictated by the sensor itself. The only significant difference is the gain value at which the sensor switches from Low Conversion Gain mode to High Conversion Gain mode which I believe is set in software. For the Uranus-C HCG mode starts at a gain value of 180 (and above), for the ASI585 it starts at 250 (and above). When in HCG mode the read noise reduces and the dynamic range increases, both good things, so most people seem to operate their cameras only in HCG mode and largely ignore LCG mode. For this reason alone, I chose the Player One camera as it offers a wider range of useful gain.

So far in practice I rarely use gains below 250 so the HCG / LCG switching point is moot. Having bought the Uranus-C however, I do find the hexagonal case design useful, and it is well made (and well supported as I have recently discovered). I'm sure the same would be true of the ZWO model.

As others have mentioned, if I'd wanted to use an ASiair (ZWO computer used to control cameras, mounts, etc) then I would have bought the ZWO camera as it doesn't support other makes of astro camera. But I use a simple direct USB connection to a laptop.

Whichever of these cameras you choose, I'd recommend either. There is no amp glow so black is black and you don't need to mess about with collecting dark frames. The sensor size is quite big but not so big that parts of it don't get illuminated and you have to deal with vignetting. The pixel size is smallish so you can see plenty of detail with the right FL scope. The sensor takes 4K images which gives an amazing full frame image (lovely on a 4K monitor) and is enough for you to crop the image or just collect data from a smaller region of interest.

I started with a similarly speced camera but with a smaller (physical and resolution) sensor that suffered from amp glow, and I no longer use it. When I upgraded from that camera, I considered bigger sensor size cameras but settled on the IMX585 and I'm very pleased with it.

 

 

I have been digging into spectrum ranges due to learning that modified DSLRs list out various options. I also noticed the IMX585 seems to cut off prior to falling into the UV range (via it's website graph). Another user in a post said:

Quote

In terms of dedicated cameras some OSC will be full spectrum and some will come with a UV/IR or IR only Cut on their optical window, you need to read the fine print to know for sure.

 I don't see anything in the player one listing directly addressing that question. Any idea on the answer if the question is important?

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8 minutes ago, Trippelforge said:

 

I have been digging into spectrum ranges due to learning that modified DSLRs list out various options. I also noticed the IMX585 seems to cut off prior to falling into the UV range (via it's website graph). Another user in a post said:

 I don't see anything in the player one listing directly addressing that question. Any idea on the answer if the question is important?

That quote you referred to about OSC cameras is regarding the optical window in front of the sensors. It can either be AR coated only (let’s everything through) or it can be coated to reject UV and IR, which reduces star bloat especially in non-apochromatic optical systems.
 

The sensors behind them will be broadly similar in the wavelengths they can see, there will be differences between different cameras but not major differences, though saying that there are some OSC cameras that are particularly sensitive in the IR.

Mono sensors will normally be covered with an AR coated window which lets everything though. Again different mono sensors can have different sensitivities across the visible spectrum. 
 

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