ZWO/Player One IMX 585 Sensor Image Showcase

[Adam J]

On 08/09/2022 at 20:51, Chris said:

Evening folks,  we've updated the ASI 585 product page at FLO to reflect most recent figures published by ZWO. 

In short the well depth has increased from 40000e to 47000e and HCG switching has changed from 150 to 252:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-585mc-usb-3-camera.html

I've been happily imaging away at gain 150 and loving the results so I'm now very much looking forward to testing gain 252!

Thank you to the kind customer who brought this change to our attention 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that there are still some questions that could be addressed to ZWO on this matter to help their customers undertstand the change in product specification.

Adam

Edited September 12, 2022 by Adam J

[Chris]

18 hours ago, Adam J said:

I think that there are still some questions that could be addressed to ZWO on this matter to help their customers undertstand the change in product specification.

Adam

Hi Adam, as it happens I've been in contact with ZWO (out of work hours), I received a surprise email asking if they could feature my initial DSO test shots with the 585! 

 I did let on that people are very curious about this change and asked if they would be willing to say why? - If they choose to let me know they are aware I'm asking on behalf of the masses so I'll take that as having permission to share 😃

https://www.facebook.com/ZwoDesignAstronomyCameras/posts/pfbid02hCs7cDCw7RZkztDJMj6rHkKY8CxSUMYU7FYNM4RmxtMM8mnP9EcSRjgwMAMSfM8bl

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Chris

[PeterC65]

I've also asked ZWO about the change in spec for the ASI585MC. Here is their reply:

"The 252 is actual parameter values obtained by ZWO technology optimization according to Sony's specifications."

My understanding is that the HCG switching point is a design decision made by balancing various competing performance parameters, gain, full well depth, dynamic range, and probably image distortion. The only datasheet for the IMX585 that seems to be available online is a shortform version that doesn't mention HCG.

 

[Adam J]

7 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

I've also asked ZWO about the change in spec for the ASI585MC. Here is their reply:

"The 252 is actual parameter values obtained by ZWO technology optimization according to Sony's specifications."

My understanding is that the HCG switching point is a design decision made by balancing various competing performance parameters, gain, full well depth, dynamic range, and probably image distortion. The only datasheet for the IMX585 that seems to be available online is a shortform version that doesn't mention HCG.

 

Yes but I highly doubt that Sony will have had astro imaging in mind when they optimised performance, much more likely security cameras and compact video cameras.

Adam

[PeterC65]

3 hours ago, Adam J said:

Yes but I highly doubt that Sony will have had astro imaging in mind when they optimised performance, much more likely security cameras and compact video cameras.

HCG is a feature of the sensor chip and so there may be some guidance from Sony in the full datasheet about how to use it, albeit not specifically for astro imaging applications. The response from ZWO doesn't explain why the spec change was made but does suggest that it was driven by the sensor itself (I had asked if that was the case, wondering if the same issue might arise for all IMX585 based cameras).

I've decided to go for the Player One version (Uranus-C). When it arrives, I will post the SharpCap sensor analysis on here.

 

[Chris]

On 12/09/2022 at 23:17, Adam J said:

I think that there are still some questions that could be addressed to ZWO on this matter to help their customers undertstand the change in product specification.

Adam

ZWO were kind enough to reply - the change was down to incorrect initial testing of the Sony sensor, so they retested and updated the specs. 

[Dark Raven]

Thanks for clearing that up for us. 👍

I stand corrected. 

[PeterC65]

1 hour ago, Chris said:

ZWO were kind enough to reply - the change was down to incorrect initial testing of the Sony sensor, so they retested and updated the specs. 

I'm not sure that does clear it up.

Initially both ZWO's and Player One's IMX585 cameras switched at about the same point and now they don't. Given the explanation from ZWO, can we expect Player One to retest and update their camera spec? I think probably not, meaning that the ZWO and Player One cameras will continue to have noticeably different specs despite their using the same sensor.

Anyway, I've ordered the Player One version, in large part because of this debacle.

 

[Chris]

2 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

I'm not sure that does clear it up.

Initially both ZWO's and Player One's IMX585 cameras switched at about the same point and now they don't. Given the explanation from ZWO, can we expect Player One to retest and update their camera spec? I think probably not, meaning that the ZWO and Player One cameras will continue to have noticeably different specs despite their using the same sensor.

Anyway, I've ordered the Player One version, in large part because of this debacle.

 

Ok  

[Chris]

On 11/09/2022 at 23:47, Dark Raven said:

Hi Chris,
It would be interesting to see side by side comparison of HCG switching from 150 to 252 with everything else being the same.

Here we go, 180 sec test shots of M31 and M33 at gain 150 then 252 - Bin 1x1, all taken close together one after the other, saved as is.

LIght frames, ZWO ASI585mc, StellaLyra F/4 Newtonian, Baader MPCC, Optolong L-pro, Bortle 6. 

1) M31 gain 150    2) M31 gain 252     3) M33 gain 150     4) M33 gain 252 - Personally I can see why ZWO changed their figures after realising a mistake was made.

 

[Magnum]

well thats interesting, gain 252 definitely looks much better.

Great test

[Dark Raven]

1 hour ago, Chris said:

Here we go, 180 sec test shots of M31 and M33 at gain 150 then 252 - Bin 1x1, all taken close together one after the other, saved as is.

Thanks Chris. Much appreciated. 👍

It would be interesting if owners of Player One Uranus C could replicate.

[Chris]

6 minutes ago, Dark Raven said:

Thanks Chris. Much appreciated. 👍

It would be interesting if owners of Player One Uranus C could replicate.

No probs, just enough time to grab the frames before the clouds rolled in. ☁️☁️ 

 @PeterC65 has ordered the Player one so maybe he can oblige? Also @Luke Newbould If he has time to knock off a couple of frames at gain 150 and 252? 

A gain comparison between the ZWO and Player One would be very interesting!

 

[PeterC65]

2 hours ago, Chris said:

 @PeterC65 has ordered the Player one so maybe he can oblige?

Will do. I'm currently waiting for the Uranus-C to arrive (from Canada).

[Magnum]

4 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

Will do. I'm currently waiting for the Uranus-C to arrive (from Canada).

so did you order direct, or from Starfield optics?

 

Lee

[PeterC65]

41 minutes ago, Magnum said:

so did you order direct, or from Starfield optics?

From Starfield Optics. Assuming I pay the tax, which I think is the right thing to do, the extra cost is worth the reduced hassle. Having said that, the camera is still in Canada according to UPS, despite Starfield Optics saying they dispatched it over a week ago!

Edited September 18, 2022 by PeterC65

[Pixies]

45 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

From Starfield Optics. Assuming I pay the tax, which I think is the right thing to do, the extra cost is worth the reduced hassle. Having said that, the camera is still in Canada according to UPS, despite Starfield Optics saying they dispatched it over a week ago!

My experience with getting stuff from the states is that the tracking gets stuck then suddenly it arrives at your door!

[happy-kat]

On 18/09/2022 at 09:21, Chris said:

Here we go, 180 sec test shots of M31 and M33 at gain 150 then 252 

Hi Chris, to clarify were those 4 images each a single 180 sec exposure please? 252 on m33 looks so good and where's the noise, it looks lovely to work with a stack of those.

[Dark Raven]

7 hours ago, happy-kat said:

it looks lovely to work with a stack of those

I have provided a clean (calibrated) stack of M31 at 254 at the bottom in the below post if you would like to give it a go...

Do let us know what you make of it...

Edited September 24, 2022 by Dark Raven

[Chris]

6 hours ago, happy-kat said:

Hi Chris, to clarify were those 4 images each a single 180 sec exposure please? 252 on m33 looks so good and where's the noise, it looks lovely to work with a stack of those.

Hi, yes! 180 second singles subs saved without any changes, just as they are straight out the camera! 

Perfect for me because I'm so lazy with calibration frames 🤣

Such a great little camera, it's putting a smile on my face each time I use it for deep sky

Not the best for planetary so far - only managing around 10fps even in crop mode so I may stick with the ASI 462mc for planetary.  

I

 

 

 

[Magnum]

21 minutes ago, Chris said:

Not the best for planetary so far - only managing around 10fps even in crop mode so I may stick with the ASI 462mc for planetary.  

I

 

 

 

Really? At what region of interest, it should get 200fps at 640x480 I would hope?

[CraigT82]

Yes that is odd, I get 250fps maximum speed at smallest ROI with my ASI485mc

[Adam J]

4 hours ago, Chris said:

Hi, yes! 180 second singles subs saved without any changes, just as they are straight out the camera! 

Perfect for me because I'm so lazy with calibration frames 🤣

Such a great little camera, it's putting a smile on my face each time I use it for deep sky

Not the best for planetary so far - only managing around 10fps even in crop mode so I may stick with the ASI 462mc for planetary.  

I

 

 

 

That can't be right. 10fps is way too low. 

[Chris]

10 hours ago, Magnum said:

Really? At what region of interest, it should get 200fps at 640x480 I would hope?

It was a few weeks back but I believe it was set at 1280x960 or 800x600 at most. 

I'm running a Ryzen 5 8GB RAM 256GB SSD machine with separate Radion graphics card, therefore I don't think it's my machine... it does fine for video editing at 1080p.

More testing required of course as I've only used it for planetary on one night. 

 

[Chris]

6 hours ago, Adam J said:

That can't be right. 10fps is way too low. 

I was surprised also, however this was one night so far so I wont set this in stone until I've done some further testing

Need to also hear from others with the ASI 585 as to their experience.