ZWO/Player One IMX 585 Sensor Image Showcase

[geeks]

8 minutes ago, Bignose13 said:

Scope is a SW72ED plus using a mask to focus, this was the first time I used the camera as I usually use a 600D astro modded and found fousing a bit of a pain compared to live view of the Cannon, I did rush a bit, 

Yeah take your time, a few extra minutes focussing can save you much pain. I would definitely drop the sub length down from 5 minutes. I would suggest playing with anything between 1 and 3 minutes. Not sure I would raise the gain past what is considered unity gain for that camera, you'll just bring in more noise to remove at this stage. Especially as you aren't dithering yet.

[Richard Wesson]

I am following this with interest. I am currently using an asto modified EOS 100D and am thinking of moving to a dedicated astro camera. I would rather not go down the cooled camera route so these newer sensors with their zero amp glow seem ideal. I am torn between the IMX 585 sensor and the 533, although the latter seems to be limited in availability. What are the pros and cons of the IMX 585? Obviously, field of view will be smaller than an Aps or the 533 so will have to mosaic larger targets.

[tompato]

I think the width of the 585 and 533 sensors is the same, it's just the 533 is square and so has a larger area overall (square vs rectangular).

Edited August 12, 2022 by tompato

[Len1257]

On 10/08/2022 at 22:14, Richard Wesson said:

I would rather not go down the cooled camera route

Any particular reason? I run both of mine at -10C without any problems.

[Richard Wesson]

3 hours ago, Len1257 said:

Any particular reason? I run both of mine at -10C without any problems.

Cost largely. 

[Bignose13]

Just a quick question, if I set the gain of this camera to 250 my darks are white out at 2 mins but if I drop the gain to 0 I get black frames 

I plan on shooting tonight on 250 gain so is it ok to have darks at 0 or have they got to be the same gain as the lights ? 
cheers 

[Richard Wesson]

58 minutes ago, Bignose13 said:

Just a quick question, if I set the gain of this camera to 250 my darks are white out at 2 mins but if I drop the gain to 0 I get black frames 

I plan on shooting tonight on 250 gain so is it ok to have darks at 0 or have they got to be the same gain as the lights ? 
cheers 

Same gain as lights as they are to correct for noise on the light frames. This will partially be a function of gain.

[CraigT82]

Would any 585mc owners be so kind as to share a sharpcap sensor analysis report? 
 

Cheers

[Dark Raven]

Last night I drove to dark site and it was first light for my ZWO ASI585MC.

 

I did not cool it as I wanted to establish the baseline performance. If you are interested how to cool planetary camera check my smartphone coolers for AP review on this forum.

I will test with the cooler next time on the same target and report back in the above thread, Given current schedule and weather permitting, probably towards the end of September.

Equipment:

Mount: ZWO AM5
Tripod: ZWO TC40
Optics: RedCat51
Guider: ZWO ASI120MM
Imager: ZWOASI585MC
Control: ASI AIR+
Focuser: ZWO 5V EAF
Filter: Optolong L-Pro

Sequence:

100 Lights
180 sec
Gain 254

Calibration:

Darks ( yes i am aware it is back illuminated... )
Flats
Bias

Conditions:

 

For reference purposes NO processing beyond DSS (v4.2.6) stacking and basic stretch. Single light and full stack (.fit) below

Final result (.png):

 

Stacking mode: Intersection
Alignment method: Automatic
Cosmetic applied to hot pixels (Filter = 1 px, Detection Threshold = 50.0%)
Cosmetic applied to cold pixels (Filter = 1 px, Detection Threshold = 50.0%)

Stacking step 1 ->91 frames (Gain: 254) - total exposure: 4 hr 33 mn 0 s
RGB Channels Background Calibration: Yes
Per Channel Background Calibration: No
Method: Auto Adaptive Weighted Average (Iterations = 5)
-> Offset: 60 frames (Gain: 254) exposure: 1/31250 s
Method: Median Kappa-Sigma (Kappa = 2.00, Iterations = 5)
-> Dark: 25 frames (Gain : 254) exposure: 3 mn 0 s
Method: Median Kappa-Sigma (Kappa = 2.00, Iterations = 5)
-> Flat: 60 frames (Gain: 254) exposure: 1/33 s
Method: Median Kappa-Sigma (Kappa = 2.00, Iterations = 5)

Autosave001.fit
Light_M31_180.0s_Bin1_585MC_gain254_20220827-224108_0002.fit

[Dark Raven]

On 18/08/2022 at 15:32, CraigT82 said:

Would any 585mc owners be so kind as to share a sharpcap sensor analysis report? 

Here you go:

[CraigT82]

9 hours ago, Dark Raven said:

Here you go:

Thank you 😊 

[Adam J]

1 hour ago, CraigT82 said:

Thank you 😊 

that is why i would go with the Playerone version it switches to low read noise mode at a lower gain:

http://player-one-astronomy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/IMX585-performance3.png

 

Hence 1e read noise but still 12 stops of dynamic range. 

Adam 

[CraigT82]

Interestingly the sensor analysis for the ASI585 gives some different values to those published by ZWO, which in turn are  very different to those published by player one for the same sensor.  Would be good to see a sensor analysis from a player one camera too.

 

[DaveS1108]

Here's my Player One Uranus-C sensor analysis

[DaveS1108]

Here's a shot of the Cocoon Nebula (IC 5146) 

Sky Watcher EvoStar 80ED with .85 flattener/reducer

Player One Uranus-C

4 hours of 240s subs @320 gain (sharpcap smart histogram)

stacked with DSS, "processed" in Siril

[Adam J]

49 minutes ago, DaveS1108 said:

Here's my Player One Uranus-C sensor analysis

As I said then, for some reason ZWO are using a different read mode and they are ending up with poorer full well / read noise at any given relative gain. Also potentially why @Bignose13 was suffering at gain 150 as he effectively had almost 6e read noise in comparison to what would have been 1.69e on the player one at the same relative gain. Very confusing.

Can anyone look and see if the ASI585mc has different read modes selectable in the ascom driver?

Adam

Edited August 31, 2022 by Adam J

[Adam J]

and here is the answer,

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/779874-imx585-chip-coming/page-2

Looks like Playerone modified the HGC read mode of the sensor so that it kicks in at a alower gain and ZWO have not. The sharp cap results above effectively confirm this.

Not sure they can modify that in drivers or not.....

On that basis I know which one I would buy.

Edit: for the noobs its the player one.

Adam

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Adam J

[Adam J]

double post, someone please remove.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Adam J

[CraigT82]

The player one results are almost exactly the same as their published results which is great. 

ZWO claim in their published graphs that their version switches to HGC at 150 gain setting too, but according to the the analysis posted by Dark Raven above it is actually more like 260.  That would have me sending the camera back for a refund if it were mine. 

Interestingly the published read noise of the Player one version is significantly lower than the ZWO version right across the gain range.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by CraigT82

[Richard Wesson]

Have been looking at both the ASI 585 and the player one equivelant. The ASI does not seem to be in stiock at present. I have seen that the Player One can be ordered direct at $399.00. However, if I go to the UK distributor Starfield optics the price is now showing as £550.00, thesame as the formerly more expensive IMX533 based model. I wonder if there are any disadvantages of ordering from player one directly other than I suppose issues with service etc?  

[Jimbo64]

2 hours ago, Richard Wesson said:

Have been looking at both the ASI 585 and the player one equivelant. The ASI does not seem to be in stiock at present. I have seen that the Player One can be ordered direct at $399.00. However, if I go to the UK distributor Starfield optics the price is now showing as £550.00, thesame as the formerly more expensive IMX533 based model. I wonder if there are any disadvantages of ordering from player one directly other than I suppose issues with service etc?  

I've placed an order with FLO (today is the last day of their ASI sale), the camera is out of stock, but they expect a delay of only around 2 - 3 weeks, so I've decided to go that route - but the recent news on here that the Player One seems the better option was not the most welcome news to read today!

[Magnum]

10 hours ago, Richard Wesson said:

Have been looking at both the ASI 585 and the player one equivelant. The ASI does not seem to be in stiock at present. I have seen that the Player One can be ordered direct at $399.00. However, if I go to the UK distributor Starfield optics the price is now showing as £550.00, thesame as the formerly more expensive IMX533 based model. I wonder if there are any disadvantages of ordering from player one directly other than I suppose issues with service etc?  

Yes ive just asked starfield the same question, 

[Dark Raven]

On 31/08/2022 at 08:18, CraigT82 said:

ZWO claim in their published graphs that their version switches to HGC at 150 gain setting too,

Not sure where that comes from but I just checked their product page and it states 252. I can not guarantee but if my memory serves me right that was like that from the beginning.

[CraigT82]

40 minutes ago, Dark Raven said:

Not sure where that comes from but I just checked their product page and it states 252

So it does… In that case are the ASI585mc charts on the @FLO website for the wrong camera???

That now raises the question (for me at least) of how Player One are getting much better read noise performance from the same sensor than ZWO? Also ZWO claims 47k full well and player one claims 39k but are getting better DR.

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by CraigT82

[Adam J]

On 31/08/2022 at 12:00, Richard Wesson said:

Have been looking at both the ASI 585 and the player one equivelant. The ASI does not seem to be in stiock at present. I have seen that the Player One can be ordered direct at $399.00. However, if I go to the UK distributor Starfield optics the price is now showing as £550.00, thesame as the formerly more expensive IMX533 based model. I wonder if there are any disadvantages of ordering from player one directly other than I suppose issues with service etc?  

Yeah no idea what thats about buy it directly its not worth £550 sensor is not that big as to justify that price point. 

Adam