Disaster

[Steve Ward]

The time , date and location info is more important , especially the time / timezone / daylight saving info , especially when first getting used to things.

You enter the time info and then spend five minutes faffing about in the dark trying to get to grips with a new toy and 'Hey Presto' the good Earth you're standing on has only gone and rotated a degree or so from when you punched in the numbers ... throwing things just out of view.

Stick with it , it does get easier .

 

[happy-kat]

I have limited sky or when you are fighting cloud gaps use one star alignment, this does not limit you to one star.

One star alignment select the star you see, then fine tune the star in the eyepiece drop to the 10mm eyepiece tune and select the button to confirm it. Now pick one star alignment again and choose another star in the sky you can see and repeat the process. You could do this for 3 stars each time your goto I expect to get better.

[CKP]

4 hours ago, Steve Ward said:

The time , date and location info is more important , especially the time / timezone / daylight saving info , especially when first getting used to things.

 

Stick with it , it does get easier .

 

I use the synscan app on my phone and it automatically connects using the phones settings I think?

I do hope it gets easier 😆 

I learnt more last night than I did a couple of nights before, I could really do with a few clear nights now!

Edited August 3, 2022 by CKP

[Martin Meredith]

For the last 8 years I've only ever used my Az-Eq6 in alt-az mode and only ever used 2-star alignment. After the initial bright star is centred, the second star is *never* in view after the slew-- it can be 10 degrees or more away -- but hasn't worried me yet. I do sometimes check whether the mount is level but don't spend more than a few seconds on it. I occasionally do a PAE or two during the early part of the session, but I don't find it to be that particularly helpful (must be doing something wrong). 

I use a sensor/scope combination with a small field of view (0.34 x 0.44 degrees at best) and even so, this slapdash approach of mine is sufficient for the DSO to be in the field of view most of the time, and that is good enough for me. Its a question of how much time to spend on alignment and how much on observing. On some nights the DSO is outside the FOV, but it is always outside the FOV by the same amount in the same direction, so even then I don't necessarily bother to realign but just perform the correction for every object I view. Given that I can regularly see 10-12 objects/hour I don't find even this a problem.

Bear in mind that all of this is based on using the Synscan handset and no apps (ie old skool) and may not apply to what you have in front of you...

Martin

PS I do find alignment to be far and away the most tedious part of observing! I'm wondering whether something like push-to via Starsense + equatorial platform would be easier...

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Martin Meredith

[CKP]

1 hour ago, happy-kat said:

I have limited sky or when you are fighting cloud gaps use one star alignment, this does not limit you to one star.

One star alignment select the star you see, then fine tune the star in the eyepiece drop to the 10mm eyepiece tune and select the button to confirm it. Now pick one star alignment again and choose another star in the sky you can see and repeat the process. You could do this for 3 stars each time your goto I expect to get better.

Thanks, I never thought of using the 10mm for fine tuning. Hopefully I'll get my head round it at some point 😆 

[CKP]

9 minutes ago, Martin Meredith said:

For the last 8 years I've only ever used my Az-Eq6 in alt-az mode and only ever used 2-star alignment. After the initial bright star is centred, the second star is *never* in view after the slew-- it can be 10 degrees or more away -- but hasn't worried me yet. I do sometimes check whether the mount is level but don't spend more than a few seconds on it. I occasionally do a PAE or two during the early part of the session, but I don't find it to be that particularly helpful (must be doing something wrong). 

I use a sensor/scope combination with a small field of view (0.34 x 0.44 degrees at best) and even so, this slapdash approach of mine is sufficient for the DSO to be in the field of view most of the time, and that is good enough for me. Its a question of how much time to spend on alignment and how much on observing. On some nights the DSO is outside the FOV, but it is always outside the FOV by the same amount in the same direction, so even then I don't necessarily bother to realign but just perform the correction for every object I view. Given that I can regularly see 10-12 objects/hour I don't find even this a problem.

Bear in mind that all of this is based on using the Synscan handset and no apps (ie old skool) and may not apply to what you have in front of you...

Martin

PS I do find alignment to be far and away the most tedious part of observing! I'm wondering whether something like push-to via Starsense + equatorial platform would be easier...

 

What is pae?

I haven't seen many dso's so was hoping to get a little more accuracy, especially as I want to put my camera on them for eaa.

Obviously, its still early days yet though.

[Elp]

You should really be using 2 star or 3 star alignment as 1 star alignment is not accurate enough. By mathematical definition to find correct 3d alignment in a 3d space you need 3 points minimum, we're not going to calculate anything here though so for star alignment two is normally enough.

Also if you can, check the firmware the mount is using (if I recall you can see this in the synscan app somewhere when it's connected), by default my azgti from new had a left alignment altaz mode (if you're standing behind the mount and it's pointing north the telescope had to be mounted on the LHS), when I updated the firmware the default alt az alignment changed for the scope to be mounted to the RHS pointing north.

[Martin Meredith]

PAE is a way of syncing on any object in the synscan catalogue to improve pointing accuracy by adding new datapoints during the observation session. You centre the DSO, then select PAE. Its a bit of a pain doing it via the handset in the dark TBH. I think it stands for positional accuracy enhancement or similar -- don't have the manual to hand.

Regarding accuracy, surely so long as the DSO is in the field of view of the camera you can always make manual adjustments to centre it (assuming you want to centre it), so for me that is always good enough. Trying to get things perfect may cut down the time you end up spending observing.

[Zermelo]

PAEs are intended to increase the pointing accuracy within a small area of sky. The idea is to align on an easy object that's in the vicinity of the more difficult object that you want to point to, with the hope that it will be within the eyepiece field. PAEs don't improve the overall pointing accuracy across the whole sky, in fact it's possible that they might decrease accuracy in areas a long way from the PAE. They are not the same as some other procedures that incrementally improve a pointing model by executing repeated alignments (dozens, in some cases).

Likewise, I believe I read that the additional operation in the Synscan 3-star alignment isn't used in the same way as the other two; it's there to detect cone error.

The alignment process should detect and correct for setup errors (mount not level, optical axis not pointing North), though the community seems divided on the importance of accurate setup. With my Alt-Az mount I level as accurately as possible and I find that my first star is very good in altitude, but more variable in azimuth (I find North harder to assess). The second star is usually pretty close. Another indicator of the alignment success is the speed of drift after the second operation. The software will be calculating the instantaneous mount velocity based on where it thinks it's pointing. If it's wrong, the target will drift. I usually leave the reticle EP in place for a couple of minutes afterwards (making sure to take out any backlash with up/right nudges) to see how far it moves, and how fast. If it looks wrong, I'll align again.

[Martin Meredith]

29 minutes ago, Zermelo said:

PAEs are intended to increase the pointing accuracy within a small area of sky. The idea is to align on an easy object that's in the vicinity of the more difficult object that you want to point to, with the hope that it will be within the eyepiece field. PAEs don't improve the overall pointing accuracy across the whole sky, in fact it's possible that they might decrease accuracy in areas a long way from the PAE. They are not the same as some other procedures that incrementally improve a pointing model by executing repeated alignments (dozens, in some cases).

Interesting, and explains why they don't seems to help me at all. I'd been assuming there was some kind of pointing model being updated. It sounds like a bit of a palava finding an easy object near to a more difficult object.

I just found a copy of the manual online and apparently they divide the sky into 85 such zones. What isn't clear (to me) is how persistent all this is between mount power-ons. Still, probably going off-topic.

[happy-kat]

I'm using 1 star alignment several times in a row on different stars the difference is I pick stars I can see as apposed to 3 star alignment limiting the star choice to a list I can't see any on. Repeated several times builds go to accuracy.

[CKP]

5 hours ago, Elp said:

You should really be using 2 star or 3 star alignment as 1 star alignment is not accurate enough. By mathematical definition to find correct 3d alignment in a 3d space you need 3 points minimum, we're not going to calculate anything here though so for star alignment two is normally enough.

Also if you can, check the firmware the mount is using (if I recall you can see this in the synscan app somewhere when it's connected), by default my azgti from new had a left alignment altaz mode (if you're standing behind the mount and it's pointing north the telescope had to be mounted on the LHS), when I updated the firmware the default alt az alignment changed for the scope to be mounted to the RHS pointing north.

Thanks, I will try the different alignment options, it may be that one might be more accurate.

I will have to check the firmware as I haven't updated it yet.

[CKP]

4 hours ago, Zermelo said:

PAEs are intended to increase the pointing accuracy within a small area of sky. The idea is to align on an easy object that's in the vicinity of the more difficult object that you want to point to, with the hope that it will be within the eyepiece field. PAEs don't improve the overall pointing accuracy across the whole sky, in fact it's possible that they might decrease accuracy in areas a long way from the PAE. They are not the same as some other procedures that incrementally improve a pointing model by executing repeated alignments (dozens, in some cases).

Likewise, I believe I read that the additional operation in the Synscan 3-star alignment isn't used in the same way as the other two; it's there to detect cone error.

The alignment process should detect and correct for setup errors (mount not level, optical axis not pointing North), though the community seems divided on the importance of accurate setup. With my Alt-Az mount I level as accurately as possible and I find that my first star is very good in altitude, but more variable in azimuth (I find North harder to assess). The second star is usually pretty close. Another indicator of the alignment success is the speed of drift after the second operation. The software will be calculating the instantaneous mount velocity based on where it thinks it's pointing. If it's wrong, the target will drift. I usually leave the reticle EP in place for a couple of minutes afterwards (making sure to take out any backlash with up/right nudges) to see how far it moves, and how fast. If it looks wrong, I'll align again.

 

4 hours ago, Martin Meredith said:

Interesting, and explains why they don't seems to help me at all. I'd been assuming there was some kind of pointing model being updated. It sounds like a bit of a palava finding an easy object near to a more difficult object.

I just found a copy of the manual online and apparently they divide the sky into 85 such zones. What isn't clear (to me) is how persistent all this is between mount power-ons. Still, probably going off-topic.

I have to admit some of this goes straight over my head, in time though I'm sure I'll understand 😆 

[Elp]

If you do it methodically it's more easy to bear, ie check tripod is level, check mount on tripod is level, check mount is pointing north before power is switched on etc. This, also enables easier fault finding if anything goes unexpected.

[CKP]

1 hour ago, happy-kat said:

I'm using 1 star alignment several times in a row on different stars the difference is I pick stars I can see as apposed to 3 star alignment limiting the star choice to a list I can't see any on. Repeated several times builds go to accuracy.

I'll try doing this on a few of the stars i have available.  

[CKP]

2 minutes ago, Elp said:

If you do it methodically it's more easy to bear, ie check tripod is level, check mount on tripod is level, check mount is pointing north before power is switched on etc. This, also enables easier fault finding if anything goes unexpected.

That makes sense.

Is it best just to use polaris as north. If I was to go for true north, I would be using a phone compass app. I'm not sure a phone acting as a compass would be accurate?

[Steve Ward]

Another tip is to mark three positive positions for your tripod legs wherever you generally observe from to create a repeatable point to start with .

If on a patio I would drill three shallow but distinct depressions into the slabs where appropriate for the tripod feet to stand in ( you'll need to leave the tripod legs set of course)

[SthBohemia]

5 minutes ago, CKP said:

have to admit some of this goes straight over my head, in time though I'm sure I'll understand 😆 

Take a deep breath and relax, things will come together in time.

'Methinks' you may be suffering from information overload. Just realise Synscan is NOT the most user friendly setup when compared to say, Celestrons Nexstar...

[Elp]

I tend to use a manual compass with a declination scale on it. Saying that, today I setup with north being the front of a building so I couldn't set it accurately, didn't have my compass, placed it roughly, opened sky safari and told it to go to the sun and it wasn't far off at all.

[Zermelo]

If you go out fairly regularly, it becomes second nature. I use a magnetic compass since mag North and true North are not much different at the moment, at least in my part of the world. I set up in daylight as it's easier to see what you're doing, and it doesn't eat into observing time.

[AstroNebulee]

You could write down a workflow of setting up your scope and how you do your alignment so it's easier to remember. Then you have it written down and then you know what works for you, until you get to know it. That is what I used to do when first starting out with my az gti. 

It you want to use your phone for a compass app then this is a good one and you can go into settings and select geographical North. I used to use it all the time. Once I leveled my scope I  placed my phone on the scope (carefully) and moved until it was pointing north then completed my north level alignment. 

Just find what works for you and write it down. 

Cheers 

Lee 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by AstroNebulee

[UKDiver]

2 hours ago, Zermelo said:

If you go out fairly regularly, it becomes second nature. I use a magnetic compass since mag North and true North are not much different at the moment, at least in my part of the world. I set up in daylight as it's easier to see what you're doing, and it doesn't eat into observing time.

Zero Magnetic to True deviation is now currently a line Swindon to Salisbury. The sailors rhyme 'mag to grid, get rid' etc. is now problematic. Well it always was if you sailed far West, but that's WAFIs for you.

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by UKDiver

[CKP]

Last night it just seemed to click.

I done a one star alignment on Polaris, starting from the home position. This time I used an app, thanks @AstroNebulee to find north. I then manually centred it. I then did it with Arcturus and Mizar. After I'd done these 3 single alignments, I typed in Polaris and hit goto. Once it slewed, it was just off centre in the eyepiece. I tried it doing a 3 star alignment and by doing the north alignment too. The target was inside the eyepiece everytime! I think finding true North using a compass instead of using Polaris as a guide is what made it more accurate.

One thing I've learnt with goto is that if it's just visual your doing, using technology takes the fun out it. Starhopping is part of finding your target.

Now I need to learn how to use the camera and start doing some EAA.

Thanks for everybody's help.

[happy-kat]

Good to read you had a better session with your setup.

It's useful to understand the difference between geographical North and celestial North

[AstroNebulee]

6 hours ago, CKP said:

Last night it just seemed to click.

I done a one star alignment on Polaris, starting from the home position. This time I used an app, thanks @AstroNebulee to find north. I then manually centred it. I then did it with Arcturus and Mizar. After I'd done these 3 single alignments, I typed in Polaris and hit goto. Once it slewed, it was just off centre in the eyepiece. I tried it doing a 3 star alignment and by doing the north alignment too. The target was inside the eyepiece everytime! I think finding true North using a compass instead of using Polaris as a guide is what made it more accurate.

One thing I've learnt with goto is that if it's just visual your doing, using technology takes the fun out it. Starhopping is part of finding your target.

Now I need to learn how to use the camera and start doing some EAA.

Thanks for everybody's help.

Great to hear you had a better session and hopefully cured your alignment issues. 

In the future you will probably have to update the firmware of your mount. 

Regarding your imaging issues if you post in the getting started with imaging section or in the mounts section the az gti mount owners thread detailing your set up and what you'll be using someone will help you very quickly. 

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/387014-skywatcher-az-gti-mount-owners-thread/

Just take your time and learn to walk before running, there's so much to learn. We are all here to help each other. Also research your equipment and learn all about it you'll be surprised how much you can learn before starting out and before your sessions. Good luck 👍

Edited August 4, 2022 by AstroNebulee