First AP camera - £500 budget??

[duncanjameshill]

Hi,

I am trying to create a setup where I can attach my scope to a pier and use it from the shed (about 8m away), so I can leave all my gear setup, ready to go (is this possible?!?!).

I have read that the Canon Eos 1100d is a respectable beginners camera for AP and also has liveview, which I'm hoping means I can view the image through a laptop. They are on eBay for ~£150 inc a 18-55mm lens which I assume is the lens which is originally bundled with the camera. 

I have a budget of £500 so this comes well in (which makes a change!). Is this a good place to start or should I be using the budget for a dedicated telescope camera - a ZWO asi for example?!? 

Could anybody recommend a camera which has the capability to be viewed / controlled via a laptop and is also suitable for DSO AP please?

Skywatcher Evostar 100ed ds pro, w/reducer

HEQ5 Pro goto 

Many thanks,

Duncan

[Adam J]

20 minutes ago, duncanjameshill said:

Hi,

I am trying to create a setup where I can attach my scope to a pier and use it from the shed (about 8m away), so I can leave all my gear setup, ready to go (is this possible?!?!).

I have read that the Canon Eos 1100d is a respectable beginners camera for AP and also has liveview, which I'm hoping means I can view the image through a laptop. They are on eBay for ~£150 inc a 18-55mm lens which I assume is the lens which is originally bundled with the camera. 

I have a budget of £500 so this comes well in (which makes a change!). Is this a good place to start or should I be using the budget for a dedicated telescope camera - a ZWO asi for example?!? 

Could anybody recommend a camera which has the capability to be viewed / controlled via a laptop and is also suitable for DSO AP please?

Skywatcher Evostar 100ed ds pro, w/reducer

HEQ5 Pro goto 

Many thanks,

Duncan

Dedicated cameras will frequently come up on the used marked for around £500 keep an eye out on astrobuysell and this forum and eventually something will turn up. I would recommend to that over a DSLR with your budget. 

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, duncanjameshill said:

Hi,

I am trying to create a setup where I can attach my scope to a pier and use it from the shed (about 8m away), so I can leave all my gear setup, ready to go (is this possible?!?!).

I have read that the Canon Eos 1100d is a respectable beginners camera for AP and also has liveview, which I'm hoping means I can view the image through a laptop. They are on eBay for ~£150 inc a 18-55mm lens which I assume is the lens which is originally bundled with the camera. 

I have a budget of £500 so this comes well in (which makes a change!). Is this a good place to start or should I be using the budget for a dedicated telescope camera - a ZWO asi for example?!? 

Could anybody recommend a camera which has the capability to be viewed / controlled via a laptop and is also suitable for DSO AP please?

Skywatcher Evostar 100ed ds pro, w/reducer

HEQ5 Pro goto 

Many thanks,

Duncan

https://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/propview.php?view=187929

Would match well with the 100ED due to large pixels and will out perform the DSLR you mentioned. 

£400 and coupled with a modern filter it's a bargain and still very capable of you can get some longer exposures in. HEQ5 will allow that in theory. 

https://www.astrobin.com/utxyxp/?q=QHYCCD QHY8L

Close to 2 arcseconds per pixel which in my view is ideal. 

In terms of the DSLR option you mention remember this will not be an astro-modified camera off ebay and so will not be sensitive to the essential Ha wavelength like any dedicated camera would be and will not have cooling like the QHY8L mentioned above either. As a USB camera you will be able to control either the DSLR or the 8L from the house via a remote PC. But as a beginner dont underestimate the challenges involved in remote imaging, it will be hard work getting it all up and running but in the end you will see the benefits.

What I would say is that the 100ED is a slow long focal length scope to be starting with something like a SW72ED is a better option for use with a DSLR as it has faster optics, but only if you modify the DSLR by removing the IR filter (depends on your skill level and confidence with electronics).

Adam

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Adam J

[GalaxyGael]

The new player one series are quite good. The cooling is passive as opposed to set point thermoelectrically cooled below zero celsius, but the chips are very clean. If you plan to stack a lot of shortish subs, they come out very nicely.

Fields of view are narrower because of the smaller chip size.

There is also the option of a active air cooling system you attach to the back of the camera for about $50. the IMX533 chip is the Saturn series of their camera, same as the ASI533, color or mono. Prices are decent IMO.

[Adam J]

1 minute ago, GalaxyGael said:

The new player one series are quite good. The cooling is passive as opposed to set point thermoelectrically cooled below zero celsius, but the chips are very clean. If you plan to stack a lot of shortish subs, they come out very nicely.

Fields of view are narrower because of the smaller chip size.

There is also the option of a active air cooling system you attach to the back of the camera for about $50. the IMX533 chip is the Saturn series of their camera, same as the ASI533, color or mono. Prices are decent IMO.

Those are also good options but the issue is that with a 900mm scope at F9 even reduced 2.9-3.75um pixels are small and the field of view tiny. So my view remains that the larger sensor above with large pixels will serve him much better. 

[GalaxyGael]

1 minute ago, Adam J said:

Those are also good options but the issue is that with a 900mm scope at F9 even reduced 2.9-3.75um pixels are small and the field of view tiny. So my view remains that the larger sensor above with large pixels will serve him much better. 

At that focal length you are right, but with a 0.8x reducer (I assume) to get to ~720 mm and the 3.76 um pixels on the 533 sensor gives just over the 1"/px, probably the max that seeing will allow.

OP: are you interested in smaller objects like galaxies, cluster, etc. or larger ones like nebulae or...? do you guide and does it give you 0.5-0.8" rms guiding on average maybe?

FOV is the limitation for the smaller player one cams if larger DSO objects with your scope are your interest. The 533 cameras with cooling and an excellent chip (one of the cleanest technology out there now for noise, amp glow etc.) are great. Second hand APS-C would be the ticket if they come up, OSC likely more readily available too. Adam J's advice on checking Astro buy and sell is a really good idea.

Maybe variants of the ASI071 with larger pixels or similar options are worth considering. RisingCam, Omegon and Bresser (among othesr) make their own versions of these with identical chips.

I would avoid the ASI1600 color versions based on the vagaries of those panasonic chips.

If you ever want to go down the route of ASIAir control, I think you need to stay with ZWO cameras and gear.

[Adam J]

1 hour ago, GalaxyGael said:

At that focal length you are right, but with a 0.8x reducer (I assume) to get to ~720 mm and the 3.76 um pixels on the 533 sensor gives just over the 1"/px, probably the max that seeing will allow.

OP: are you interested in smaller objects like galaxies, cluster, etc. or larger ones like nebulae or...? do you guide and does it give you 0.5-0.8" rms guiding on average maybe?

FOV is the limitation for the smaller player one cams if larger DSO objects with your scope are your interest. The 533 cameras with cooling and an excellent chip (one of the cleanest technology out there now for noise, amp glow etc.) are great. Second hand APS-C would be the ticket if they come up, OSC likely more readily available too. Adam J's advice on checking Astro buy and sell is a really good idea.

Maybe variants of the ASI071 with larger pixels or similar options are worth considering. RisingCam, Omegon and Bresser (among othesr) make their own versions of these with identical chips.

I would avoid the ASI1600 color versions based on the vagaries of those panasonic chips.

If you ever want to go down the route of ASIAir control, I think you need to stay with ZWO cameras and gear.

From above FOV simulator image I would say that for someone starting out the 533mc on even a reduced 100ED is going to give too small a FOV. To get the whole of M31 you would need to take 3-4 images and as opposed to 1-2 with the QHY8L. Also 1arcsecond resolution imaging will just not be supported by a 100mm aperture the physiscs will not allow it irrespective of pixel size, daws limit / guiding errors / seeing will prevent it. I dont see it as likely that a beginner to AP is going to get sub arcsecond guiding from a long scope like a 100ED on a HEQ5pro, its just asking too much.

Of the suggestions you make all are out of the OPs stated budget and the only one that makes sense to me without needing a change of scope is the ASI071mc pro as it will at least get close to the FOV of the QHY8L. But even second hand you are looking at a minimum of £850 for one of those.

So within his budget with some left over even for a duel narrow band filter like an L-extream, I really do think the QHY8L at £400 is a killer option for this scope.

https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/?fov[]=46||9791||0.85|1|0&fov[]=46||3106||0.85|1|0&fov[]=46||66||0.85|1|0&messier=42

https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/?fov[]=46||9791||0.85|1|0&fov[]=46||3106||0.85|1|0&fov[]=46||66||0.85|1|0&messier=31

Above we see that even the all time beginer classic M42 will not fit into the FOV of a reduced 100ED with a IMX533 sensor.

Of course the other option for OP would be to go with a shorter focal length scope 300-400mm and then a DSLR or a small sensor camera like the IMX585 but that would again be way over his stated budget.

More QHY8L examples below:

https://www.astrobin.com/spz642/?q=QHY8L

https://www.astrobin.com/317799/?q=QHY8L

https://www.astrobin.com/68954/B/?q=QHY8L

https://www.astrobin.com/414958/?q=QHY8L

https://www.astrobin.com/235662/B/?q=QHY8L

I also note that OP may not even have a guide camera / scope as a beginner and doent not mention one above, so again sub arcsecond is not going to happen and the big pixel of the 8L are the way to go. More money left over for a guide camera in future if he is not stretching to £800+ for a newer generation dedicated camera and the 8L will far outperform the DSLR options within budget, especially none modifed units off ebay.

 

 

Adam

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Adam J

[Adam J]

Thinking about it further another well suited option may be a astro-modified Canon 6D MK1, with its large pixels and huge sensor.

Those can be picked up for about £350 used and if self modified is well within budget.

 

[powerlord]

I still love my 6d, but I don't use it anything like as much as my 533mc tbh.

As a first astro cam, a 2nd hand 533 is hard to beat.

Coincidentally, cough, my 533 will be up for sale soon since I've just bought a 2600 !

However, I doubt you'll get one for 500 quid - they are £950 new, and sell used for around 700 I think ?

I got my 6d for 350 as it had a cracked screen cover (replaced easily for a fiver). Then had it modified to remove the LPF2. You can get great results with it - but do bare in mind you'll need something like a 2" L-extreme for NB, and that your OTA will have to be capable of feeding a FF sensor. Saying that - I love the widefield you can get with the FF sensor and something like the SY135 lens - I especially like mono Ha from it (i.e. shooting with the L-extreme and just keeping the red channel).

 

[duncanjameshill]

Hi, thanks for the replies - there is a lot of information there and I'll try to get my head around it all this morning.

I don't have a guide camera, and didn't realise I needed one - naively thought the mount would suffice!

You guys sure know what you're talking about and it'll take me a while to understand it all I think (but my holiday started today, so plenty of time for research 😁).

 

Thanks again so far!

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, duncanjameshill said:

Hi, thanks for the replies - there is a lot of information there and I'll try to get my head around it all this morning.

I don't have a guide camera, and didn't realise I needed one - naively thought the mount would suffice!

You guys sure know what you're talking about and it'll take me a while to understand it all I think (but my holiday started today, so plenty of time for research 😁).

 

Thanks again so far!

The mount will handle 1-2min exposures at 2 arcseconds per pixel if its perfectly aligned, the problem is that with your current scope at F7.5 you would likely want to go longer than that even with a CMOS and certainly 10-20min expsoures with a CCD. So really a guide camera / guide scope are a requirement for imaging with yours setup. The minimum sensor size at your focal length for the majority of targets a beginner is interested in is APSC. 

Adam

[duncanjameshill]

Hi,

I don't have a particular subject I want to photograph - whatever is easiest to learn the basics I guess.

Some more questions sorry. I've dug about a bit online but just ended up knowing less than when I started I think.

Am I right in saying that a guide scope is a more accurate version of a finder scope? Is this to improve the alignment of the scope just at setup?

And a guide camera will actually adjust the scope to compensate for misalignment?

So for objects that require long tracking times(?) a guide camera is needed as my mount just isn't accurate enough? 

For solar system AP a guide camera isn't required as you can _just_ point and click?!?

Is Full Frame better than APS-C for AP? Or does it depend on the object?

Is a Skywatcher Evostar 72ed ds pro better for AP than my 100ed? I was thinking of getting one previously as a grab and go for travelling.

Lots of questions, sorry, but one gets such clearer answers here than Googling it.

Thanks,

Duncan.

[irtuk]

Hi Duncan,

A guide scope is a finder scope, the thing that makes it a "guide" scope is the software that you plug it into, so, you would take a normal finderscope/guide scope like a skywatcher EvoGuide 50 and you plug a camera into it.

That camera then connects to a piece of software, PHD2 is very commonly used, and the software also connects to the mount. The software monitors small changes in the location of a guide star, and issues a correction to the mount. So in that respect no, its not just for alignment, its for actively guiding the mount and compensating for errors.

Objects that require, or you want to use long exposures on are helped by active guiding. 

Solar system stuff is generally done with video, using a technique called "lucky imaging" in which you shoot many, many frames of video and post processing software picks out the best ones and stacks them together.

I would recommend a dedicated astro camera over a DLSR for a number of reasons, most of which other people have called out but I would also add that a dedicated camera will have ASCOM drivers which in the long run will be easier to integrate into a full system.

Post as many questions as you like! That's what we are here for.  Personally I have just about finished getting my setup how I want it, its pier mounted permanently and all remotely controlled, there are some sizeable learning curves on this journey but it's immensely satisfying!

 

Ed.

 

[Stu Wilson]

On 27/07/2022 at 07:59, duncanjameshill said:

Hi,

I am trying to create a setup where I can attach my scope to a pier and use it from the shed (about 8m away), so I can leave all my gear setup, ready to go (is this possible?!?!).

I have read that the Canon Eos 1100d is a respectable beginners camera for AP and also has liveview, which I'm hoping means I can view the image through a laptop. They are on eBay for ~£150 inc a 18-55mm lens which I assume is the lens which is originally bundled with the camera. 

I have a budget of £500 so this comes well in (which makes a change!). Is this a good place to start or should I be using the budget for a dedicated telescope camera - a ZWO asi for example?!? 

Could anybody recommend a camera which has the capability to be viewed / controlled via a laptop and is also suitable for DSO AP please?

Skywatcher Evostar 100ed ds pro, w/reducer

HEQ5 Pro goto 

Many thanks,

Duncan

I have a qhy8l tec cooled ccd camera for sale. 500 pounds plus 10 p&p if your interested.

 

Stu

[andymw]

FWIW:  if you need an autoguider solution, I have an Orion Magnificent Mini Deluxe Autoguider package that served me well for a couple of years.  I no longer use it as I have moved to an off-axis guider solution.

I would be happy to send it to you for the cost of shipping plus some kind of donation to my favourite charity: https://www.donmcmath.org/  They are a school in the Gambia for children who can't afford education.  We have sponsored two children through the school for the past 20 years although we have never asked to know which two children we were sponsoring. 

Just a thought .. you get an autoguider on the cheap and help some children in Africa at the same time.

In terms of your original question "I am trying to create a setup where I can attach my scope to a pier and use it from the shed (about 8m away), so I can leave all my gear setup, ready to go (is this possible?!?!).":

Yes it absolutely is.  I eventually achieved this by buying a mini-PC (A Mele Quieter3) that is strapped to my mount and installed all the pre-requisite software on it (in my case PHD2, SharpCap, APT, ASCOM).  I also installed a powerline (over the mains) wifi extender in my garage to give me wireless access to it.  I use remote desktop protocol from a PC inside to control the whole setup and use a robocopy script to automatically copy the subs captured back to my main PC indoors.

Edited August 3, 2022 by andymw

[duncanjameshill]

On 03/08/2022 at 19:28, Stu Wilson said:

I have a qhy8l tec cooled ccd camera for sale. 500 pounds plus 10 p&p if your interested.

 

Stu

Hi Stu,

Yes I'm interested please - is it possible to liveview with this cam though?

Duncan.

[Adam J]

On 29/07/2022 at 14:51, duncanjameshill said:

Hi,

I don't have a particular subject I want to photograph - whatever is easiest to learn the basics I guess.

Some more questions sorry. I've dug about a bit online but just ended up knowing less than when I started I think.

Am I right in saying that a guide scope is a more accurate version of a finder scope? Is this to improve the alignment of the scope just at setup?

And a guide camera will actually adjust the scope to compensate for misalignment?

So for objects that require long tracking times(?) a guide camera is needed as my mount just isn't accurate enough? 

For solar system AP a guide camera isn't required as you can _just_ point and click?!?

Is Full Frame better than APS-C for AP? Or does it depend on the object?

Is a Skywatcher Evostar 72ed ds pro better for AP than my 100ed? I was thinking of getting one previously as a grab and go for travelling.

Lots of questions, sorry, but one gets such clearer answers here than Googling it.

Thanks,

Duncan.

The 72ED is a much better bet for astro imaging as a beginner if you are imaging DSO. 

I would not get a full frame, the optics you have will not be corrected across a sensor that size. 

You could use a small sensor like the 585 with a scope that focal length. Or just use the 8L on the 100ED....all in all though if you have the 72ED that might be better for the future. 

Adam

Edited August 5, 2022 by Adam J

[Stu Wilson]

2 hours ago, duncanjameshill said:

Hi Stu,

Yes I'm interested please - is it possible to liveview with this cam though?

Duncan.

Yes it will live view in all software I use. Which obviously is great for focus etc.

PM Me any questions or info you want.

 

Cheers

 

Stu

[duncanjameshill]

Hi,

I've ordered a QHY8L for £350 which seems a bargain and a Skywatcher 50ed + ASI120mm guide bundle.

Beginners Guide to Astrophotography:

1. Decide a budget.

2. Double the budget.

3. Agree the budget is for "Phase 1"....

Luckily I have a small form factor PC from work which I can use for the remote setup, so hopefully I'll be on my way in a few days 😁.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, maybe I'll have some photos soon....

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, duncanjameshill said:

Hi,

I've ordered a QHY8L for £350 which seems a bargain and a Skywatcher 50ed + ASI120mm guide bundle.

Beginners Guide to Astrophotography:

1. Decide a budget.

2. Double the budget.

3. Agree the budget is for "Phase 1"....

Luckily I have a small form factor PC from work which I can use for the remote setup, so hopefully I'll be on my way in a few days 😁.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, maybe I'll have some photos soon....

As you have guiding now what I would say is that the QHY8L will benefit from longer exposures even up to 30mins would be good. Do research on darks bias and flat frames for calibration as you will require them. Pick a bright target to start with and consider a duel narrow band filter as your next upgrade. Can't wait to see some pictures. 

Adam 

[duncanjameshill]

On 03/08/2022 at 23:54, andymw said:

FWIW:  if you need an autoguider solution, I have an Orion Magnificent Mini Deluxe Autoguider package that served me well for a couple of years.  I no longer use it as I have moved to an off-axis guider solution.

I would be happy to send it to you for the cost of shipping plus some kind of donation to my favourite charity: https://www.donmcmath.org/  They are a school in the Gambia for children who can't afford education.  We have sponsored two children through the school for the past 20 years although we have never asked to know which two children we were sponsoring. 

Just a thought .. you get an autoguider on the cheap and help some children in Africa at the same time.

In terms of your original question "I am trying to create a setup where I can attach my scope to a pier and use it from the shed (about 8m away), so I can leave all my gear setup, ready to go (is this possible?!?!).":

Yes it absolutely is.  I eventually achieved this by buying a mini-PC (A Mele Quieter3) that is strapped to my mount and installed all the pre-requisite software on it (in my case PHD2, SharpCap, APT, ASCOM).  I also installed a powerline (over the mains) wifi extender in my garage to give me wireless access to it.  I use remote desktop protocol from a PC inside to control the whole setup and use a robocopy script to automatically copy the subs captured back to my main PC indoors.

Thanks andymw for the offer, but I've decided to splashout for the Skywatcher 50ed and ASI120mm bundle from FLO. Incidentally, I tried to make a donation anyway and was sent to the Virgin Money home page and couldn't find my way from there. I will try again when I get home on Tuesday.

Duncan