Who is James Webb

[Zeta Reticulan]

44 minutes ago, UKDiver said:

Gary Numan is older than Gary Oldman.

That's just scary.

[saac]

Do we consider a need to disinter Sir Isaac Newton from his place of honour at Westminster Abbey?  He was a product of his time and many of his views would have been considered "unfashionable" in today's enlightened times.  Many of our civic and military heros from WW2 era were in leadership positions and would have been similarly responsible for, in theory,  upholding government or legal statues of the time. Is it time then that we distance our self from the accolades and respect afforded to the likes of,  Winston Churchill, Hugh Dowding, Douglas Bader, Aneurin Bevan. I wonder if Alexander Fleming's or James Clerk Maxwell 's  views and moral outlook should be examined to ensure we in 2022 are content that they reflect our more noble positions.  Or maybe we need to be careful with our easy judgement of the past.  They say what goes around comes around.  

Jim 

Edited July 24, 2022 by saac

[Zeta Reticulan]

6 minutes ago, saac said:

Do we consider a need to disinter Sir Isaac Newton from his place of honour at Westminster Abbey?  He was a product of his time and many of his views would have been considered "unfashionable" in today's enlightened times.  Many of our civic and military heros from WW2 era were in leadership positions and would have been similarly responsible for, in theory,  upholding government or legal statues of the time. Is it time then that we distance our self from the accolades and respect afforded to the likes of,  Winston Churchill, Hugh Dowding, Douglas Bader, Aneurin Bevan. I wonder if Alexander Fleming's or James Clerk Maxwell 's  views and moral outlook should be examined to ensure we in 2022 are content that they reflect our more noble positions.  Or maybe we need to be careful with our easy judgement of the past.  They say what goes around comes around.  

Jim 

 

I think Newton gets a free pass for inventing the Newtonian telescope. He was just lucky that his last name was the same as the telescope. Not so sure about Douglas Baader.

There has been speculation that Newton borrowed the design from an Italian astronomer. Newton was also heavily into alchemy, although I don't hold that against him (I'm an Aquarius). 

I don't know what James Webb's personal views were. 

"On September 30, 2021, NASA announced that it would keep the JWST name after running an investigation and finding "no evidence at this time that warrants changing the name".[40][41]

Former administrator Sean O'Keefe, who made the decision to name the telescope after administrator Webb, stated that to suggest that Webb should "be held accountable for that activity when there's no evidence to even hint [that he participated in it] is an injustice".[40]" ~ Wikipedia

I don't think we should let ontologically constructed culture wars interfere with the potential knowledge a scientific achievement like the JWST can bring to humanity (and Zeta Reticulans). 🛸

 

 

[CraigT82]

18 minutes ago, Zeta Reticulan said:

Former administrator Sean O'Keefe, who made the decision to name the telescope after administrator Webb

Trust one manager to name a scientific instrument after another manager 🙄

[Zeta Reticulan]

1 minute ago, CraigT82 said:

Trust one manager to name a scientific instrument after another manager 🙄

Yeah lol. It kinda figures.

[Gfamily]

4 hours ago, CraigT82 said:

Trust one manager to name a scientific instrument after another manager 🙄

And then to 'justify' his own decision by saying (in effect) that 'there is no evidence'; despite the knowledge that people were dismissed from their roles and had their NASA careers terminated purely for no other reason than prejudices about their sexuality. This, at a time when Webb was in charge. 

Now, back in the 1950s and 60s that wasn't uncommon, though regrettable.

However, for someone in the 2000s to disregard the historic injustices and prejudicial actions of the administration at that time seems to be an active dismissal of the injustice done to those workers and what that implies to those like them who currently work in the administration and in astronomy.

I can see how some people might say "oh, it's revisiting historic attitudes, and seeing things through today's lenses", but the decision to honour Webb wasn't made in the relative past, it was made in the present day (more or less), and it seems made with very little consideration. There's also a question about how well the recent historical review was carried out.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Gfamily

[Gfamily]

A Scientific American article giving context

 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-revelations-raise-pressure-on-nasa-to-rename-the-james-webb-space-telescope/

[Zeta Reticulan]

2 hours ago, Gfamily said:

A Scientific American article giving context

 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-revelations-raise-pressure-on-nasa-to-rename-the-james-webb-space-telescope/

That's quite a thought provoking article.

[Astrobits]

If you simply drop the "James" then the WEBB TELESCOPE could honour any Webb you choose. For me it would be the Rev T.W.WEBB  (Celestial Objects for Common Telescopes).

Nigel

[maw lod qan]

Many mistakes have happened in the past that I'm sure if it was possible to have a "do over", most would change things.

I see the calls to "right wrongs" over here, and most of the time it is just another type of hate and discrimination. 

Instead of trying to erase the past, we should learn from it and hopefully not make the same mistakes again.

Sadly, I see around me every day signs this is still a long time coming.

[woldsman]

It should have been named Scopie Mc Scope Face - NASA missed a trick with that one. 

[DaveL59]

22 minutes ago, maw lod qan said:

Many mistakes have happened in the past that I'm sure if it was possible to have a "do over", most would change things.

I see the calls to "right wrongs" over here, and most of the time it is just another type of hate and discrimination. 

Instead of trying to erase the past, we should learn from it and hopefully not make the same mistakes again.

Sadly, I see around me every day signs this is still a long time coming.

I agree that lessons should be learned. Something that was named years/generations ago that had been built by someone who profited from, for example, slavery, yes don't change it but perhaps have some informational plaque to indicate an acknowledgement of said past. But to name something today after someone whose known past shows a discriminatory approach to others, well I'd say that obviously no lesson was learned at all.

Perhaps the motivation behind current admin deciding it was OK was he either holds those same views or he hopes one day to have some great instrument named after himself...

Edited July 25, 2022 by DaveL59

[DaveL59]

ok so taking this debate a tad further, what are folks thoughts on this one:

Yes, the 'Von Braun' Space Hotel Idea Is Wild. But Could We Build It by 2025? | Space

I mean, really! that is not a good choice of name at all given the history the the man. Of course the US quietly extracted him from Germany after WW2 because they wanted his expertise and happily turned a blind eye to his past but to consider naming something after him?

Wernher von Braun - Wikipedia

Might as well name something after the leader of the party he was a member of too, no?

[maw lod qan]

DaveL59, that one ^, I have to agree with you on. 

I guess you have to think of the time back then. As terrible his participation in the atrocities then, it was much better we ended up with him, than the Soviet Union.

[iapa]

2 hours ago, DaveL59 said:

ok so taking this debate a tad further, what are folks thoughts on this one:

Yes, the 'Von Braun' Space Hotel Idea Is Wild. But Could We Build It by 2025? | Space

I mean, really! that is not a good choice of name at all given the history the the man. Of course the US quietly extracted him from Germany after WW2 because they wanted his expertise and happily turned a blind eye to his past but to consider naming something after him?

Wernher von Braun - Wikipedia

Might as well name something after the leader of the party he was a member of too, no?

Do Arthur C. Clarke or Stanley Kubrick now appear on the “bad people” list for using the rotating ring with spokes design? 👹

[Zeta Reticulan]

Wasn't Kubrick cancelled regularly at one time? Just adds to the mystique lol.

[Macavity]

Perhaps it's more a case of the "Journalistic Parenthesis" (a.k.a. clickbait)? 🤔

The concept of a rotating space station was imagined by Werner von Braun,
but WAS previously known as the Gateway Spaceport (after the company)?
(Hey, I didn't know anything about this stuff, but I was able to look it up!) 🥳

Perhaps speculating re. the reaction "if it were called" is a bit premature? 🙃



 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Macavity

[DaveL59]

4 minutes ago, iapa said:

Do Arthur C. Clarke or Stanley Kubrick now appear on the “bad people” list for using the rotating ring with spokes design? 👹

why? I'm referring to the man and a significant object being named after him despite his known history. Seems NASA maybe hasn't learned or just doesn't consider it important. I'm sure many of us watched 'Hidden Figures' and lauded the administrator who removed the segregation but it does make you wonder how much of that was Hollywood gloss vs the real story.

[Zeta Reticulan]

Oh crap! Now I am not going to get the 'Blue Danube' out of my head all day.

 

 

[SthBohemia]

It should have been called the, 'Barry McKenzie', and be decorated with large cans of Fosters Lager!

[iapa]

Seems that one Konstantin Tsiolkovsky came up with the idea in the very early 1900s.

As well as the basic three stage design still used for rocketry, proposals for hovercraft and the formula establishing the relationship between change in the rocket's speed, exhaust velocity of the engine and mass of the rocket.

All good, until his involvement in the October Revolution and subsequent involvement in the Soviet era. 

 

 

[iapa]

14 minutes ago, Zeta Reticulan said:

Oh crap! Now I am not going to get the 'Blue Danube' out of my head all day.

my work here is done

[iapa]

2 minutes ago, SthBohemia said:

It should have been called the, 'Barry McKenzie', and be decorated with large cans of Fosters Lager!

I’m with whoever suggested Scopie McScopeFace; perhaps for the next one?

 

[Macavity]

Objectively, not the MOST tasteless idea to emerge in recent days? 🤣
The general concept was fairly amply/ably demolished elsewhere too.



 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Macavity

[iapa]

2 minutes ago, Macavity said:

Objectively, not the MOST tasteless idea to emerge in recent days? 🤣
The general concept was fairly amply /ably demolished elsewhere too.



 

I like the idea of the NCC1701 style Galaxy class command module on the tail.

Edited July 25, 2022 by iapa