XW or DeLite?

[Voyager 3]

Have you compared the XWs and DeLites in the 5mm and 7mm FLs? What is the consensus? Price is out of contention as they are both at the exact same price now with the XW sale. Going to be specifically used for lunar/planetary. 

 

Will I gain anything at all if I choose the DeLites? I've read enough that the DeLite might be a smidge ahead from respected folks like BillP but would like to hear from more people who've directly compared them. 

8" F/6

[Louis D]

I would also keep an eye out for used Pentax XLs.  I have the 5.2mm XL and have never felt a need to change to a 5mm XW.

I like my 10mm Delos a smidge more than my 7mm XW and 9mm Morpheus for star tightness and contrast across the field, but not by a wide margin at all.  I have yet to try the DeLites, but they are reputed to be at least as good as the Delos, so I don't think you could wrong buying them.  You'll be giving up a bit of field over the XWs, but that's about all.

[IB20]

I have had a 13mm Delite and now own all the XWs from 3.5-10mm. The XWs are quite simply the best eyepieces I have ever used. Incredibly comfortable, superb quality and 70° AFOV. The twisting eyecup is so much better than the Delite’s mechanism which I found clumsy, it would also move when replacing caps. The views through the Delite were fantastic but IMO the XWs are just as good if not better with more FOV. The Televues also suffer from the dreaded undercut which really did start to annoy me. The DeLite did not come to focus in one of my scopes which was the reason I got rid, the Pentaxes work in all 3 of my scopes. 

I’m using the 7 & 5XW nearly every session in my 570mm refractor. I cannot wait to get the 5XW on Mars in my 8” dob, I genuinely think it’s the best eyepiece I’ve ever used.

 

 

[Ricochet]

4 hours ago, Voyager 3 said:

Will I gain anything at all if I choose the DeLites?

Based on my XWs (7, 10, 14) and delites (13, 18) you gain a smaller, lighter eyepiece that you are more likely to be able to binoview with the eye cups up. In terms of viewing the Delites are exactly the same as the inner 60° of the XWs, you're just missing the outer 10°. 

I find that the XW eyecup is more comfortable to use, and it stays at the set height. The XWs are also more resistant to dewing. 

[Don Pensack]

9 hours ago, Ricochet said:

Based on my XWs (7, 10, 14) and Delites (13, 18) you gain a smaller, lighter eyepiece that you are more likely to be able to binoview with the eye cups up. In terms of viewing the Delites are exactly the same as the inner 60° of the XWs, you're just missing the outer 10°. 

I find that the XW eyecup is more comfortable to use, and it stays at the set height. The XWs are also more resistant to dewing. 

The Delites have a shielded eye lens and a smaller eye lens exposed than the XWs.  I haven't found either to be prone to dewing, but the Delites  are not less resistant to dewing than the XWs.

Also, the eyecup locks in place at whatever height you choose, so really no different than the XWs in the field.  Also, XWs also have undercuts on the barrels.

I have no axe to grind.  Pentax XWs are fine eyepieces.  As are Delites and Delos eyepieces.

As are Baader Morpheus eyepieces.  There are some fine choices in the market today.

[Alan White]

Yes, I have directly compared and now only own the XW, but let me explain why;

DeLites are very good, very clear and (pun intended) delightful in use, but with two issues for me, 
Deeper angled undercuts, which snag on the televue diagonal I own.
The eye cup twist and slide design sometimes moves when locked.

Not an issue but it’s 60 degrees field.
A big plus it’s lighter than the Pentax.

The XW’s I have owned a number on and off, changed mainly as I wanted smaller and lighter and like to only own one set of eyepieces, not a set for each scope, which in all honesty is best if you can afford to do so.

XW are very good, very clear and a pleasure to use, with one issue for me,
The range has a gap of a 12mm and a 6mm, which can only be filled by other makes,
however that gap is not really an issue in use at all!

The XW have undercuts, far smaller, shallower and do not snag on the TeleVue diagonal.

70 degrees field and somehow feel stunning to look through.

I recently sold some XW and down sized to DeLites, very quickly I realised for me that it was a mistake and at a cost rectified it very quickly, so now back to some XW’s, the one XW I flat refused to sell was telling at the 1Omm.

My set is for my one scope, a Vixen ED103 f7.8, but they were used in a 10” oouk f4.9 scope before and were all excellent.
APM UFF 30, Vixen 22 LVW, XW 10, 7, 5 , TeleVue Nagler 3-6 zoom.

All I would say is all more premium eyepieces mainly differ in ergonomics, field of view and how they handle for you,
rather than in what they show to the eye.

 

[Ricochet]

4 hours ago, Don Pensack said:

  I haven't found either to be prone to dewing

I suspect this is because your air is a lot drier than mine. During the last few weeks of summer my Delites have been fine but at all other times they have issues. Comparing the time you can have an eyepiece in the focuser it's minutes for the delites vs hours for the XWs. All I can do is report back what I have found using the eyepieces that I own. You cannot claim that I don't see this difference. 

[russ]

4 hours ago, Alan White said:

Yes, I have directly compared and now only own the XW, but let me explain why;

DeLites are very good, very clear and (pun intended) delightful in use, but with two issues for me, 
Deeper angled undercuts, which snag on the televue diagonal I own.
The eye cup twist and slide design sometimes moves when locked.

Not an issue but it’s 60 degrees field.
A big plus it’s lighter than the Pentax.

The XW’s I have owned a number on and off, changed mainly as I wanted smaller and lighter and like to only own one set of eyepieces, not a set for each scope, which in all honesty is best if you can afford to do so.

XW are very good, very clear and a pleasure to use, with one issue for me,
The range has a gap of a 12mm and a 6mm, which can only be filled by other makes,
however that gap is not really an issue in use at all!

The XW have undercuts, far smaller, shallower and do not snag on the TeleVue diagonal.

70 degrees field and somehow feel stunning to look through.

I recently sold some XW and down sized to DeLites, very quickly I realised for me that it was a mistake and at a cost rectified it very quickly, so now back to some XW’s, the one XW I flat refused to sell was telling at the 1Omm.

My set is for my one scope, a Vixen ED103 f7.8, but they were used in a 10” oouk f4.9 scope before and were all excellent.
APM UFF 30, Vixen 22 LVW, XW 10, 7, 5 , TeleVue Nagler 3-6 zoom.

All I would say is all more premium eyepieces mainly differ in ergonomics, field of view and how they handle for you,
rather than in what they show to the eye.

 

I'm glad you decided the DeLite wasn't for you Alan 😉  it's now in my ever expanding collection (11mm, 13mm and 18.2mm). 

I can't comment on the debate between DeLite and XW, as only owned the XL's. But I LOVE the DeLite. The 62deg afov doesn't bother me at all. Worth it for all the other attributes.

[Voyager 3]

19 hours ago, Louis D said:

 

 Well the XW sale has put the smack dab at the same price as DeLites and this is what the doubt arises.. if one doesn't want the ergonomics of DeLites(like binoviewing), why would one even buy one now? 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Voyager 3

[great_bear]

Where are they the same price as Delites?

[Louis D]

2 hours ago, Ricochet said:

I suspect this is because your air is a lot drier than mine. During the last few weeks of summer my Delites have been fine but at all other times they have issues. Comparing the time you can have an eyepiece in the focuser it's minutes for the delites vs hours for the XWs. All I can do is report back what I have found using the eyepieces that I own. You cannot claim that I don't see this difference. 

Was this with the XW eye cup all the way down or extended somewhat upward?  I could totally see the XW's eye cup protecting the eye lens better when extended upward.  However, all the way down, I can't imagine how it would help prevent dewing.  Perhaps the sheer thermal mass of the XW relative to the lighter DeLite could explain the discrepancy?

I'm in a near swamp-like environment here in Texas with dewpoints in the mid to upper 70s F during the summer, and I've never had dewing issues with any eyepiece.  Maybe if I observed in the early morning when everything dews up I might.  Perhaps the UK runs closer to 100% humidity all night long?

[Louis D]

4 minutes ago, great_bear said:

Where are they the same price as Delites?

Here in the US, both are $269 apiece before taxes.

[great_bear]

It's because it's cold here. Warm, moist air from your eyeball, is what causes the dewing. Usually the eyepiece is fine until you look through it - would be funny if not so infuriating!

On such nights it can help to keep eyepieces in your pocket to keep them warm - but with Delos etc, that's easier said than done!

Edited June 24, 2022 by great_bear

[Don Pensack]

1 hour ago, great_bear said:

It's because it's cold here. Warm, moist air from your eyeball, is what causes the dewing. Usually the eyepiece is fine until you look through it - would be funny if not so infuriating!

On such nights it can help to keep eyepieces in your pocket to keep them warm - but with Delos etc, that's easier said than done!

Glasses help keep the eyepieces from fogging, I'm noticed.  It's always cold where I observe--it can be 32°F in August--so fogging is very common.

If you observe without glasses, and use long eye relief eyepieces like the XWs and Delites, it helps to leave the eyecups all the way down, which allows air circulation between the eye and the eyepiece.

I also keep a small Japanese fan in my pocket to quickly blow air at the eyepiece to evaporate fog when I see it start forming on the eyepiece.  Otherwise it turns to frost.

You learn to adapt to conditions, like breathing out of the corner of your mouth away from the eyepiece rather than with your nose, when looking through the eyepiece.

Keeping the eyepieces in a foam-lined case when they are not in use also helps keep the eyepieces from getting too cold.  Keeping eyepieces in a rack is a sure-fire way to cause them to fog up in use.

[russ]

1 hour ago, Louis D said:

Here in the US, both are $269 apiece before taxes.

They are only £20 apart here in the UK. 

[Ricochet]

2 hours ago, Louis D said:

Was this with the XW eye cup all the way down or extended somewhat upward?

I observe without glasses so eyecup up. 

2 hours ago, Louis D said:

Perhaps the sheer thermal mass of the XW relative to the lighter DeLite could explain the discrepancy?

I believe it is radiative cooling of the eyepiece outer skin. Because the delites are all metal there is a conductive path from the glass all the way to the exterior of the eyepiece. In effect the eyepiece becomes a heat sink for the eye lens. With the XWs the rubber/plastic covering breaks that conductive path. The rubber still radiates to space but does not absorb that lost heat from the interior of the eyepiece. Similarly, SLVs and Starguiders don't suffer despite being significantly smaller but the larger 21E does. I think using my observing hood also helps as it hangs down over the eyepieces preventing radiation, but this requires further testing. 

[Louis D]

4 hours ago, great_bear said:

Usually the eyepiece is fine until you look through it

 

2 hours ago, Don Pensack said:

Glasses help keep the eyepieces from fogging

I always wear eyeglasses at the eyepiece due to strong astigmatism.  That may be why I've never had fogging issues with any eyepiece even in winter; although Texas winters are normally pretty mild.

2 hours ago, Don Pensack said:

You learn to adapt to conditions, like breathing out of the corner of your mouth away from the eyepiece rather than with your nose, when looking through the eyepiece.

I have a big enough schnoz that it seems to act like a directed exhaust vent in that moist air being breathed out is directed well away from the eyepiece at right angles.  I could see where wearing a balaclava or other face covering would be completely detrimental to preventing fogging.  Even my eyeglasses fog when wearing them in winter up north (not in Texas 🤣).

2 hours ago, Ricochet said:

believe it is radiative cooling of the eyepiece outer skin. Because the delites are all metal there is a conductive path from the glass all the way to the exterior of the eyepiece. In effect the eyepiece becomes a heat sink for the eye lens. With the XWs the rubber/plastic covering breaks that conductive path. The rubber still radiates to space but does not absorb that lost heat from the interior of the eyepiece. Similarly, SLVs and Starguiders don't suffer despite being significantly smaller but the larger 21E does.

I think you might be on to something there.  My Dob has a cardboard Sonotube instead of a metal one, so that may contribute to it never dewing as well.

[scarp15]

4 hours ago, Voyager 3 said:

 Well the XW sale has put the smack dab at the same price as DeLites and this is what the doubt arises.. if one doesn't want the ergonomics of DeLites(like binoviewing), why would one even buy one now? 

It will perhaps also depend on how many scopes you operate. To follow from our former conversation, I switched from an XW to a DeLite in the same focal length; that is 5mm. The reasoning being as I had already acquired a Delos and DeLite and decided to continue investing in this line to retain parfocal continuity. Also personally I had a preference for the ergonomics and relaxed eye position of DeLite / Delos. Then going back to the type of scopes you use, they perhaps gain most time in my 85mm refractor, the compact size is nice and proportionate. They are still applied to my 8" F6 to, for at home lunar, planetary, binaries sessions.  

Quite an interesting decision you have to make, if the XW's are on a sale currently where you are, I would be tempted by the 5 & 7mm XW for your 8" F6. 

[great_bear]

46 minutes ago, scarp15 said:

I switched from an XW to a DeLite in the same focal length; that is 5mm. The reasoning being as I had already acquired a Delos and DeLite and decided to continue investing in this line to retain parfocal continuity.

Now that is a VERY astute point. 

I am in the same boat as the OP - same FL for the same scope weirdly enough - and whilst I was set on a Delite, this thread had me considering the Pentax. 

But parfocality? Darn good point there.

It bugs me already that the Delos 17.3 isn’t parfocal with the other Delos, but having to refocus whilst at the other end of the focal range - whilst chasing a target at high magnification? Hmmm yeah, that’s possibly a dealbreaker for against the XW for me. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by great_bear

[scarp15]

2 hours ago, great_bear said:

Now that is a VERY astute point. 

I am in the same boat as the OP - same FL for the same scope weirdly enough - and whilst I was set on a Delite, this thread had me considering the Pentax. 

But parfocality? Darn good point there.

It bugs me already that the Delos 17.3 isn’t parfocal with the other Delos, but having to refocus whilst at the other end of the focal range - whilst chasing a target at high magnification? Hmmm yeah, that’s possibly a dealbreaker for against the XW for me. 

Sometimes the only conundrum is telling each eyepiece apart when outside switching frequently between oculars of incremental focal lengths. This can occur between my 4mm, 5mm and 7mm DeLite, little in the way of size variation but one does have a slightly different cap to the others which (provided its attached) can help. 

[F15Rules]

I've owned and really liked XWs in 5 and 7mm, an equally great 10.5mm XL and found them all to be excellent, well built optics that just work. I also owned a Pentax XL 8-28mm zoom which was optically excellent, but was physically large and heavy, and some wouldn't have liked the narrow c40 Deg fov at the 24mm setting..it never bothered me though.

So I'm a big fan of Pentax even though I had to sacrifice them a few years back as part of raising funds to buy my Takahashi scope.

Later, and after I had sold the XWs, I for a short time owned a 5mm Delite which I bought on a special offer from a UK dealer. I really didn't like it, and returned it after just a couple of uses for a refund. I really disliked the undercut, (IMHO the TV ones snag more than most), and the 60 degree fov made me wonder why anyone would buy one at their list price, rather than an equivalent TV Plossl , apart from the additional eye relief? I personally find that the difference between a 70 degree fov and a 60 degree fov is much more noticeable than the difference between a 50 degree and a 60 degree one, which might partly explain my being underwhelmed by the Delite 5mm.

If you want to binoview, I can see that a pair of Delites would be easier to pair up than a pair of XWs, but then I'd much rather pair up two Morpheus EPs than 2 Delites, given that the Morphs would deliver a far wider fov.

So, in conclusion I can see no optical reason to go from XW to Delite, and several reasons to stay with the XWs.

Good luck to the OP with your decision! 😊

Dave

[great_bear]

15 hours ago, F15Rules said:

wonder why anyone would buy one at their list price, rather than an equivalent TV Plossl , apart from the additional eye relief? 

Because that eye relief is REALLY bad on the shorter Plossls, and the range stops at 8mm. 
 

Oh - and weight! 
- some telescopes (such as my wife’s 130P SupaTrak) are really not built to take Delos et. all. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by great_bear

[Sunshine]

I can't speak for the Delites but I certainly love my XW's, built like grenades and super comfy eye relief and FOV.

[Highburymark]

Optically, you can’t go wrong with Delites, Delos or XWs. I’ve used all three extensively and it’s incredibly difficult to split them. That’s why in the many forum threads dedicated to examining their various merits, most comments are about ergonomics and personal preferences.
If AFOV is important, go Pentax. If weight is important, go Delite. They are both about as good as modern medium-wide eyepieces get.

[jetstream]

Not sure about DeLites but I do know that the Delos are great on faint DSO and are also very sharp and with excellent contrast.