Camera selection?

[fortytwo]

Hi all,

I'm taking the first considerations towards an astro dedicated camera to replace the Canon 600D (unmodded) that I currently use.
The purchase is a way off yet, but based on the fact that I will be buying an ASI Air before that I am considering cameras from the same manufactuer.

I want an OSC as imaging time is short enough in the UK.

My main question is, which one of their cameras will most closely duplicate the FOV of my DSLR.
I think from just entering the details of the cameras into Stellarium that it will be the ASI071MC Pro but am not sure if its as simple as that.

I am assuming that I will need additions to the imaging chain to achieve focus when compared to the DSLR and wonder if that will make a difference to the FOV?

I will be using it mainly on my WOZ73 with the flatner / reducer fitted but would like to also use it on my SW200 Explorer.

Thankyou in advance for any replies and advice.

Cheers,

Jeff

[DaveS]

The 071 is old tech. If you must go OSC (And it's actually debatable whether it's actually quicker) then I would look at the ASI 2600MC to duplicate the FoV.

I personally would be reluctant to go down the ASI air route as I don't like being locked into one manufacturer's system, plus my preference would be for the QHY version.

[adyj1]

2 hours ago, fortytwo said:

I am assuming that I will need additions to the imaging chain to achieve focus when compared to the DSLR and wonder if that will make a difference to the FOV?

The FOV is determined by your sensor size rather than distance to achieve focus (it is the same telescope with the same focal length after all). 

I went with a 533mc pro and the smaller sensor meant a smaller FOV than with my dslr. I plugged the sensor details into Sky Safari to see what FOV I would get whilst deliberating the purchase.. 

[ONIKKINEN]

For the same FOV you have the 2600MC from ZWO, or various other manufacturers who put the same sensor in their version (IMX571, available mono and OSC). I also see that you mentioned the Asiair but that you have not yet bought one so ill recommend another route, a cheaper camera with the same sensor inside as the 2600MC from ZWO: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001359313736.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.6f047164JGhOx6&algo_pvid=88c7fc7f-59b2-4b58-9bdc-a75b08237944&algo_exp_id=88c7fc7f-59b2-4b58-9bdc-a75b08237944-0

Ok, its maybe not the best known brand out there, but there are many (me included) who are satisfied with the camera. Mine has worked almost without issue for the past year in challenging conditions and i cant see why i wouldn't recommend it to someone. The little problems i have had have been software related, so not special to any specific camera and just how it is in the hobby. Then to replace the Asiair pro you would get either a Windows 10 mini-pc (best choice) or a Raspberry pi based mini-pc (easier, but not as many options). Both are around the same price or cheaper than the Asiair.

3 hours ago, fortytwo said:

I want an OSC as imaging time is short enough in the UK.

This is actually an argument to get a mono camera instead of OSC. Mono with filters will get you a deeper image in the same amount of time as an OSC. It may not seem like it if your night gets cut short due to sudden change in weather and you're missing data from one of the filters, but if given equal imaging time the mono camera will win every time.

You did not mention budget, which will carry a lot of weight in the decision of camera because mono+filters+wilterwheel will be much more expensive than just an OSC camera so you might not have a choice in this matter. There is the mono 1600MM for a lot cheaper that you could get with filters for the price of the 2600, but this is somewhat old tech now. Plenty of people post amazing images taken with this camera though so its far from old and useless even though there are better, newer cameras available.

[Len1257]

9 hours ago, DaveS said:

The 071 is old tech.

Might be old tech but works perfectly well and cheaper! I have it and a 2600MC and use the 071 where the larger pixel size is a benefit. No issues with it at all.

 

[ollypenrice]

LRGB is actually faster than OSC because the luminance phase of the capture lets all colours of light onto all the pixels all of the time. If you want to add narrowband data then it becomes a lot faster. It can be frustrating to be robbed of a filter's capture by cloud, though.

However, I think that OSC CMOS cameras are more convincing than OSC CCDs used to be and the dual or tri-band filters are a boon.

I wouldn't try to choose a camera long in advance because the models are changing very quickly. You just need to choose a camera with an APS-C sized chip and it won't be significantly different from your 600D in format.

Olly

Edited May 29, 2022 by ollypenrice
typo

[tomato]

If price is a factor, I would support the Risingcam IMX571 option, if you can reconcile the fact you have no UK retailer to return it to for a warranty repair.

My OSC version is coming up to 6 months old, no issues so far 🤞except I needed to fit a £25 ZWO sensor heater to it to prevent fogging of the sensor window (a 5 minute job).

[fortytwo]

13 hours ago, DaveS said:

The 071 is old tech. If you must go OSC (And it's actually debatable whether it's actually quicker) then I would look at the ASI 2600MC to duplicate the FoV.

I personally would be reluctant to go down the ASI air route as I don't like being locked into one manufacturer's system, plus my preference would be for the QHY version.

Hi Dave,

Thankyou.

What would you say makes the 2600 a better purchase other than being a newer model? Is it £600 better than the 071?

I understand the one manufacturer argument but if I understand correctly you can connect most cameras and peripherals to an ASI Air also I imagine the ease of connecting OEM components together outweighs any aspect of 'locking in'?

I would like to eliminate any possible scenarios of trying to get different protocols to work together.

[DaveS]

The 2600 has a higher QE, lower noise, and no amp glow. Plus if you go for the QHY version you have the option of different readout modes depending on your target, though in practice I would stick to just one or two.

[fortytwo]

Thankyou for your rplies everyone.

To address some points raised, as mentioned to Dave above, I do believe in trying to minimise as many problems as possible which is why I am considering the single OEM route. The OEM has spent their time making sure there products work as seamlessly as possible (hopefully 😂) so that I don't have to waste my time.
It also means I can get the benefits of guiding (which I currently don't do) and control my DSLR with relative ease, based on what I've seen on youtube.

My apologies, I should have given a budget guide. It is quite broad but has to be centrally approved by the finance dept (Mrs Fortytwo) but even I'm not happy at this time going down the filter and MM route.

Raspberry pi is out for the OEM argument above, and my for my technical ability, and yes I've tried RP for other things such as smart home.

Laptops are 90% discounted as the additional software always looks overly complicated and appear to have many features that would either not be used (why have them) or have the potential to cause a world of pain due to a random misclick in a tick box etc.
I have however considered EOS backyard.

Ultimately when I retire, hopefully in 5 to 8 years I will have time and money to invest even more at which point it will all change again, fingers crossed.

@adyj1

I will take a look at Sky Safari for that purpose, do you think it would be better than Stellarium?

@ollypenrice

Thats good advice about waiting, I imagine due to cost that will be enforced on me anyway now 😂

Thankyou again everyone for your replies on this subject.

Cheers,
Jeff

[fortytwo]

1 hour ago, DaveS said:

The 2600 has a higher QE, lower noise, and no amp glow. Plus if you go for the QHY version you have the option of different readout modes depending on your target, though in practice I would stick to just one or two.

Thankyou Dave, I think the main there for me is the amp glow, so something to look at.
QE and noise, I'm guessing compared to my DSLR the difference is going to be huge so maybe not such a consideration, but then future proofing could be a consideration.
Readout modes, no idea about that so again something to read up on.

Thankyou again,
Jeff

[DaveS]

This page is for the colour version, I think it now has all the modes available for the mono. Just note, that unless you're logged in the prices are ex VAT

[mikeyj1]

Dave, no amp glow on the 071, or 2600, none at all...  but you should mention the difference in megapixels and pixel size and bit depth..  QE ratio between the 2600 colour and 071 is very similar ~80%

[scotty38]

Unless you're on a mission to minimise your calibration files I wouldn't let amp glow influence your purchase anyway as it'll calibrate out in even the worst case scenario.

[adyj1]

5 hours ago, fortytwo said:

I will take a look at Sky Safari for that purpose, do you think it would be better than Stellarium?

You just need to choose your poison - skysafari is what I would use when planning a viewing session as I have my FOV overlaid on the star map to show what targets fit. Whatever you normally us should work, or even the FOV tools on astronomy.tools website will work to show the difference that sensor and pixel size have on your FOV. 

[newbie alert]

6 hours ago, fortytwo said:

Hi Dave,

Thankyou.

What would you say makes the 2600 a better purchase other than being a newer model? Is it £600 better than the 071?

I understand the one manufacturer argument but if I understand correctly you can connect most cameras and peripherals to an ASI Air also I imagine the ease of connecting OEM components together outweighs any aspect of 'locking in'?

I would like to eliminate any possible scenarios of trying to get different protocols to work together.

If you look at it as a imx 571 sensor rather than the 2600 then yes that sensor is way ahead of the 071( thought it was discontinued anyway)

As regard to the ASI air, not only will you lock yourself into the zwo brand you will also restrict yourself to using that software and full use of some software such as phd2...

[gorann]

Reagarding 071 vs 2600, you should go for the 2600. I had an 071 (now sold) and in addition to amp glow, lower sensitivity and more noise, it was also often fogging up. So I regularly had to take it apart to dry the silika pills inside in a microwave, and opening it up leads to dust paticles on the sensor unless you have a cleanroom. Never have had to do that with the three 2600 I now have. I also thought the 071 was discontinued (or soon to be).

[iantaylor2uk]

I think it is fair to say the 071 is older tech compared to the 2600. There is likely to be old stock out there still for sale. If you can pick one up cheaply it's probably worth going for. I haven't had a lot of dew/frost problems with mine as I only usually cool it down to -5C. One thing worth mentioning is that the pixel size, at 4.78 microns, is quite a bit bigger than that of the 2600, which can be an advantage in terms of wider field of view and easier guiding.

[fortytwo]

21 hours ago, newbie alert said:

If you look at it as a imx 571 sensor rather than the 2600 then yes that sensor is way ahead of the 071( thought it was discontinued anyway)

As regard to the ASI air, not only will you lock yourself into the zwo brand you will also restrict yourself to using that software and full use of some software such as phd2...

I'm curious as to why a  says about being locked into the brand, I'm fairly certain that all the videos I've watched talk about using many different cameras, including DSLR? What have I missed?

I've already mentioned I'm not keen to get into outside laptop with 3rd party software that has a trillion settings that all have the potential to cause nightmares if inadvertantly clicked or changed, and I've read plenty of stuff online about people who have done just that.

[herne]

2 minutes ago, fortytwo said:

I'm curious as to why a  says about being locked into the brand, I'm fairly certain that all the videos I've watched talk about using many different cameras, including DSLR? What have I missed?

I've already mentioned I'm not keen to get into outside laptop with 3rd party software that has a trillion settings that all have the potential to cause nightmares if inadvertantly clicked or changed, and I've read plenty of stuff online about people who have done just that.

You can use Canon and Nikon DSLRs.  But for dedicated astro cameras you have to use ZWO products.

[newbie alert]

33 minutes ago, fortytwo said:

I'm curious as to why a  says about being locked into the brand, I'm fairly certain that all the videos I've watched talk about using many different cameras, including DSLR? What have I missed?

I've already mentioned I'm not keen to get into outside laptop with 3rd party software that has a trillion settings that all have the potential to cause nightmares if inadvertantly clicked or changed, and I've read plenty of stuff online about people who have done just that.

As far as I know with a ASI air you can't use anything other than zwo.. so you're tied to using zwo.. not a great drama but if you want to use something else you cant

As for 3rd party software and a laptop...you're basically using a Rpi and a restricted software.. my opinion is a laptop and 3rd party software is more stable..learning how to use things is part of the fun, otherwise we would just download data ,and process it

Edited May 30, 2022 by newbie alert
Added info

[Clarkey]

23 hours ago, herne said:

You can use Canon and Nikon DSLRs.  But for dedicated astro cameras you have to use ZWO products.

I'm pretty sure this is correct as DSLRs are not in direct competition with ZWO.

If a laptop is not a preferred option, there are quite a few of us using the Mele Quieter 2 mini PC. Fanless, small and cheap but will run astro control software with ease.

 

[DaveS]

+1 for the mini PC, just RDP it from the comfort of your sitting room.

[ollypenrice]

On 29/05/2022 at 22:48, iantaylor2uk said:

 One thing worth mentioning is that the pixel size, at 4.78 microns, is quite a bit bigger than that of the 2600, which can be an advantage in terms of wider field of view and easier guiding.

I'm lost. What does pixel size have to do with field of view? If the chips have the same number of pixels then, obviously, the one with the bigger pixels will have a larger chip giving a larger FOV. 

Olly

[ollypenrice]

On 30/05/2022 at 19:05, herne said:

You can use Canon and Nikon DSLRs.  But for dedicated astro cameras you have to use ZWO products.

ZWO are not the only makers of astro cameras or even of CMOS astro cameras. There are many brands. You most certainly don't have to use ZWO products.

olly