Bresser Messier 152/1200

[Antoinfletcher]

Has anybody here got experience with the Bresser Messier 152/1200 (f8) refractor? If so, would you recommend it. It seems a good price for a large refractor (even an achromat). 

I'd primarily be an observer of the planets and the Moon, so I'm attracted to the aperture and the moderately high focal ratio. I understand these wide aperture refractors can have some issues with CA. 

Bresser also offers the scope on a computerised, equatorial mount, so it seems ideal for photography. 

I have also been looking at Dobs, but I want an eq mount so I can use the scope for short exposure shots. Furthermore, I am a bit intimidated by the need to collimate and maintain a reflector. 

My budget is up to about 1500 euro. Will this telescope at f/8 and say at x300 (under good seeing conditions), show Juputer, Saturn and Mars at a good apparent size in the eyepiece?

Any advice or info would be greatly appreciated.

[Franklin]

I had a Skywatcher Evostar150 f/8 refractor and it was superb for low power rich field viewing. Quite good for lunar/planets but the CA kicks in at higher magnifications and the image becomes soft. Imo, a 4" ED refractor would be better suited really. 

[Antoinfletcher]

3 hours ago, Franklin said:

I had a Skywatcher Evostar150 f/8 refractor and it was superb for low power rich field viewing. Quite good for lunar/planets but the CA kicks in at higher magnifications and the image becomes soft. Imo, a 4" ED refractor would be better suited really. 

Thank you for your reply, Franklin.

I would actually prefer to go for an ED, but cost is a significant factor. I'm seeing 4" EDs for about €1600, but that is before the cost of the mount is added. I've no doubt they are more than worth the money, but for my budget I think I'd be best buy the scope and mount as a package. I might look at the Evostar 120 or 150 ed and perhaps save up for a mount at another time. That said, if the CA isn't ruinous, I'd tolerate it. 

On your Evostar 150 were the planets tiny points of light? Or could you discern details on the surface, etc. With seeing conditions here in Ireland, I think even x300 would be pushing it. I have had some people recommend large dobs. However, I would prefer an equatorial mount for tracking and also, I have read that refractors perform more reliably in poor seeing conditions. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Antoinfletcher

[bosun21]

I have an Evostar 120/1000 on an EQ5 pro go to mount and used in conjunction with the Baader semi apo filter the CA is reduced considerably. The planets are easily within reach at this focal length and even more so if a 2 or 3X Barlow is used in the imaging train. 

[Ratlet]

Someone will be along who knows more, but have you considered a mak?  You can get one on a fairly small mount and they apparently give amazing views of the planets.  It will give a higher focal length and as large an aperture.

You could get the skywatcher 150mak with either the eq5 or the heq5 for a very similar price to the bresser.

You can fire up stellarium and see what the planets will look like through various combinations of eyepieces and Barlow's.

If imaging is something you are thinking about I would have a look at astrobin.com and search for the scope to see what other people are getting our of the ota's.  I could be wrong but, if you are doing planetary then you don't really need tracking as people generally do short exposures compared to deep sky and basically stack from a video.

[OK Apricot]

I used to have an Evostar 150 achro. It was very good on the moon and planets, but there was noticeable CA at higher mags and on brighter objects. As said, you could buy a semi apo filter which will help, depends if you can "see through" the CA. It wasn't a deal breaker for me and enjoyed it very much. A Mak or CC would be another good shout. 

[Len1257]

13 hours ago, Antoinfletcher said:

Will this telescope at f/8 and say at x300 (under good seeing conditions), show Juputer, Saturn and Mars at a good apparent size in the eyepiece?

Plug your numbers into https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/ and you should get some idea of image capability. What you actually see might be another matter?

[Nik271]

In practice it is rare to reach even x200 on the planets with any instrument except in rare conditions.

But x200 is plenty magnification to see detail: belts and barges on Jupiter, markings on Mars, the Cassini division on Saturn.

Easy calculation: Jupiter is 40'' in angular size. Times 200 gives 133' or more than two degrees apparent size in the EP, so it will look like the width of two of your fingers at arms length, big enough to see detail. 

At 150mm F8 the Bresser is a beast though: a heavy scope to move about and as other say as well it will need some CA control at high mags.  You will be better off with a Cassegrain of some sort. 

[Louis D]

Given the weight and length of the OTA, it sure seems massively undermounted on that EQ mount; or am I missing something here?

[dweller25]

Many years ago I had a skywatcher 150mm F/8 achromat refractor and found it to be very good at low powers for deep sky objects.

It was OK on the Moon at x100 but did show some Chromatic aberration.

At x190 to x200 for the planets it showed strong colour smearing and the image started to get soft, a CA filter helped a little but a light yellow filter was better and cheaper but the yellow cast was off-putting.

It was a beast to mount - a Vixen GPDX was not enough so ideally an EQ6 may be needed for high powers.

It was beaten in all areas by my equatorially mounted Skywatcher 8” F/6 Newtonian - with Apochromatic views.

Perhaps a modern alternative could be the GSO 8” Classical Cassegrain.

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by dweller25

[dweller25]

Oops duplicate post 🤪

Edited April 29, 2022 by dweller25

[Marian M]

TS-Optics 6" f/5.9 Refractor could be an alternative as RFT to the Bresser but i don't think that any of them are for  Planets and Moon

I have a Mak 127 and a faster achro- 120/600, but there is no comparison between the Mak and achro on Moon, Mak is blowing away the refractor

[Chandra]

I am a lover of refractor sights and have been weighing the pros and cons of this scope for some time, which is a wet dream for refractor lovers. In my case, I would value it more for deep sky because of its brightness and contrast, 6" net aperture, without obstructions. I think that in lunar and planetary observation a Mak or an ED will give you better satisfaction. I am, like many, the owner of a SW 100ED and I assure you that the sharpness and contrast of the details of this scope will hardly be equaled in the Bresser 6" despite its 2" larger aperture, simply because you have to consider that CA not only adds color halos in the discs but it blurs the outlines of the details, with the loss of sharpness and contrast that this entails, and that is something that filters do not fix. And the quality of the views you get with a 100ED of the Moon at more than 200x (no problem) would astound you. I admit an AR150 is a sweet treat, but I certainly think it's a very heavy, high-torque beast that's hard to control with any mount on the market today.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Chandra

[Louis D]

16 hours ago, Chandra said:

I admit an AR150 is a sweet treat, but I certainly think it's a very heavy, high-torque beast that's hard to control with any mount on the market today.

I think you're overstating that a bit.  I would think any of the higher end EQ mounts would have no problem at all with it.  However, who wants to drop $5000 to $20000 on a mount for a $700 telescope?

That's an AP Starfire 160 on an AP1200 mount above, so I would think it would handle a Bresser Messier 152/1200 just fine.

Software Bisque also makes some good mounts that should have no issues with the 152, either:

[Chandra]

You're right @Louis D, I expressed myself wrong, obviously there are mounts that support scopes like that refractor, and even heavier and longer, but it's what you say, the stuffing costs much more than the chicken as we say around here. 

I was referring to the budget that our colleague has, according to himself, about €1,500. In my opinion, an AR150 needs at least a strong and stable mount type EQ6, CGEM or similar, with loose load capacity for that tube and all the possible accessories that he can put on it, and 2" steel tripod legs. The declared load capacity of the mount of the advertising photo (an EXOS-2) is 13 kg, it does not specify if for visual or astrophoto, but, whatever it is, I think it is very tight for the AR150... 

Experience tells me that the load capacities that the manufacturers or distribuitors declare are too "optimistic", but hey, that's a personal opinion... Planetary and in many cases lunar observation are generally done at high magnifications, so stability is even more a priority. Mounts that I have refered about (all of them computerized) already "eat" at least more than 90% of his budget. Of course, the ones you show in your photos go much further, but they are configurations designed for imaging, which need a plus stability. He should probably install an extender column, due to the length of the tube, otherwise it will "suffer" in the observation near the zenith, that will be about €100 more... So, exceded budget. 

Anyway, I repeat, Bresser's publicity photo shows the OTA on an EXOS-2 computerized at a reasonable price around our companion's budget, but in my opinion this configuration does not guarantee quality observation at high magnification, I say for visual, of course it is completely unsuitable for astrophoto. Maybe he could look in the second-hand market for more solid mounts at a more reasonable price, yes.

[Louis D]

32 minutes ago, Chandra said:

the stuffing costs much more than the chicken as we say around here.

OMG, that's a hilarious saying.  I've never heard it here in the states.

[Louis D]

On 27/07/2022 at 07:13, Chandra said:

Of course, the ones you show in your photos go much further, but they are configurations designed for imaging, which need a plus stability.

I like CCD-Freak's overmounting example below:

That's an AT60ED up top.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Louis D

[Zeta Reticulan]

Achromats can be effective for lunar/planetary observing depending on focal ratio.

[Chandra]

@Louis D With that configuration you could take astrophotos even in the middle of a hurricane! 🤯

[Greymouser]

If you are mostly interested in the moon and planets, I have two things to advise/say.

Firstly by quite a margin the best view of Jupiter I had last year was with my Skywatcher ED80, sat on a photo tripod. This even though I have a Celestron SCT 9.25. The detail was quite amazing and not that high a power either. In fact perhaps the best I have ever seen.

Secondly, try to not get into the spiral of greater aperture is always best, not even ED being always the best. I have now got a Bresser achromat, F13.2, which I am very much looking forward to training on the planets this summer. It is truly superb on the moon, sharp as a tack, no trace of CA at all. I mount it on my Skytee, which is not that dear either and very easy for the planets or the moon. I do believe they can vary in quality, but I have been lucky and got a very good one at a very good price. ( Second hand. )

https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/bresser-telescope-ac-102-1350-messier-hexafoc-ota/p,54409
https://www.firstlightoptics.com/alt-azimuth-astronomy-mounts/skywatcher-skytee-2-alt-azimuth-mount.html

Might be worth a punt, cos if you get lucky too, you will not be disappointed.

One more thing, be aware that pretty much no matter what the brand, there is always the chance of buying a lemon, if you see what I mean...

[Chandra]

17 hours ago, Greymouser said:

Secondly, try to not get into the spiral of greater aperture is always best, not even ED being always the best. I have now got a Bresser achromat, F13.2, which I am very much looking forward to training on the planets this summer. It is truly superb on the moon, sharp as a tack, no trace of CA at all. I mount it on my Skytee, which is not that dear either and very easy for the planets or the moon. I do believe they can vary in quality, but I have been lucky and got a very good one at a very good price. ( Second hand. )

https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/bresser-telescope-ac-102-1350-messier-hexafoc-ota/p,54409
https://www.firstlightoptics.com/alt-azimuth-astronomy-mounts/skywatcher -skytee-2-alt-azimut-mount.html

Views from that tube might be perfectly comparable to any ED or even shorter focal length 4" APO, assuming the Bresser's lens grinding and polishing are accurate. With this focal ratio it must to have a quite flat observable field... although that also always depends on the level of correction of the EP used. The loss of maximum visual field due to the high focal ratio is not important for Moon or planets, so I agree with you in considering this tube or similar can be a good option for our companion. Although I think the focuser goes against it (the quality of the Hexafoc is not among the best R&P), an element that is crucial to achieve the greatest possible sharpness at medium and high magnification, to better perceive the finer details. I'm not saying it doesn't work, sure it's solvent in the price range we're talking about, but in the medium term it's likely that he should upgrade to a dual speed Crayford. The 6x30 finder is also very basic, but in any case it is true that for the Moon or planets that is not important.

I have a Skytee and it would hold that tube perfectly, although due to its length it will make lever in planetary observation (normally it is done around 40-45º), so I recommend a good balance beforehand with the accessories that will to be used in the session. If the mount is only going to be used with one tube (the Skytee supports aligning two), he should counterbalance it at the other end, in order to don't flex the mechanics in azimuth. EQ-5 / CG-5 and equivalent / EXOS-2 type equatorial mounts will also support very well this suggested tube. A budget of €1,500 is even enough for a computerized one.

Anyway, the option of a Mak I think is also very valid for the purpose of  @Antoinfletcher , planetary and lunar are the speciality of this design, with contrast vision comparable to long AC and ED, but with the advantage of being much more manageable compact tubes, and they don't usually require as much maintenance as the newtonian or SC. They are somewhat expensive tubes, but grateful.

https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/bresser-maksutov-telescope-mc-127-1900-mcx-messier-eq-az-goto/p,62754

https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/bresser-maksutov-telescope-mc-127-1900-messier-exos-2-goto/p,54307

Maybe @Antoinfletcher doesn't contemplate a versatile Newton design, but at the moment FLO has an interesting offer of a Celestron N8" on a solid AVX computerized EQ mount (CG-5), a tube with excellent performance in all fields of observation, but, yes, with the typical "snags" of any newtonian... https://www.firstlightoptics.com/offers/offer_celestron-c8-n-newtonian-vx-goto_271928.html#about_this_product

Edited July 29, 2022 by Chandra

[Gonariu]

On 4/28/2022 at 9:06 PM, Antoinfletcher said:

Has anybody here got experience with the Bresser Messier 152/1200 (f8) refractor? If so, would you recommend it. It seems a good price for a large refractor (even an achromat). 

I'd primarily be an observer of the planets and the Moon, so I'm attracted to the aperture and the moderately high focal ratio. I understand these wide aperture refractors can have some issues with CA. 

A few years ago I too was attracted by a nice refractor of this type but I left it alone because I had read that it was heavy and I chose a Nexstar 8 SE. Post a link to a site of a well-known Italian amateur where the first 150/1200 released, the Antares IO, is tested.

https://www.dark-star.it/astronomia-articoli-e-test/test-strumentali/antares-io-150-1200/

[Greymouser]

5 hours ago, Chandra said:

Although I think the focuser goes against it (the quality of the Hexafoc is not among the best R&P), an element that is crucial to achieve the greatest possible sharpness at medium and high magnification, to better perceive the finer details. I'm not saying it doesn't work, sure it's solvent in the price range we're talking about, but in the medium term it's likely that he should upgrade to a dual speed Crayford. The 6x30 finder is also very basic, but in any case it is true that for the Moon or planets that is not important.

I have a Skytee and it would hold that tube perfectly, although due to its length it will make lever in planetary observation (normally it is done around 40-45º), so I recommend a good balance beforehand with the accessories that will to be used in the session. If the mount is only going to be used with one tube (the Skytee supports aligning two), he should counterbalance it at the other end, in order to don't flex the mechanics in azimuth. EQ-5 / CG-5 and equivalent / EXOS-2 type equatorial mounts will also support very well this suggested tube. A budget of €1,500 is even enough for a computerized one.

 

I am afraid I really cannot agree. The focuser may not be the best, but it is very good, what is more it is very easy to upgrade via the Bresser two sped upgrade kit: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bresser-telescopes/bresser-messier-1-10-gear-set-for-hex-focuser.html

It is easy to fit and I have one off another inferior Bresser scope. I have not put it on the F13.2, because in my opinion, ( so far... ) it just does not need it. I took it to very high magnitude on the moon, without any problem focusing at all. It just snapped into focus and stayed there. Certainly better than the other shorter focus Bresser.

As for the mount, yes a driven, even computerised mount is better, but no really needed for the moon and planets, imo. My AZ EQ5 carries it easily. I will be using the Skytee this summer, to avoid any faffing, just a quick set up and off I go!  At least with this scope.

[SthBohemia]

On 28/04/2022 at 21:06, Antoinfletcher said:

Any advice or info would be greatly appreciated.

Maybe head off to a few star parties and take a peek through a few different scopes, someone is bound to have something close to, or resembling a Bresser 152mm refractor.

Buying a 'used' scope is also a good option as you can try before buy.

Member Vlad wrote a great article (somewhere) within a thread/feed regarding stopping down 150mm refractors to 120, 100 and even 80mm. Effectively increasing F ratio to reduce CA....

A 150mm refractor is NOT heavy, at most 14-15 KG....

[Dave scutt]

I have an opticstar 127mm f9.5,  bresser remake. It's heavy but still easy to carry out .

There is CA but I use a Lumicon 2" Minus Violet filter which helps.

If using it for planetary and the moon I would recommend a skytee II mount very quick to set up and start observing. 

The view's are good but I haven't looked through any other refractor to see the difference. 

The moon picture was taken using my phone