Horse head in a small scope

[bish]

Hi all 

I'm not sure whether to get a h beta filter. I have seen the horse head in a 10", but it wasn' t my SW 250 and may have had better optics. Anybody seen the HH in  a 10" or smaller?

Thanks

[chiltonstar]

25 minutes ago, bish said:

Hi all 

I'm not sure whether to get a h beta filter. I have seen the horse head in a 10", but it wasn' t my SW 250 and may have had better optics. Anybody seen the HH in  a 10" or smaller?

Thanks

Just, with averted vision with 7".

Chris

[Kon]

On my 8" Dob with Hb and averted vision

[M40]

Co-incidentally, a new member joined yesterday, Stephen Waldee, who seems to have a great deal of information available on his website about viewing the HH. Not sure how to do it, but see if you could link / bring this topic to his notice. 

[bish]

Thanks. Think I will give it a go.

[Guest]

I live in Ohio....and our skies suck.  To visually see the Horsehead you need something close to a 14 or 16 inch and the darkest skies you can get. 

[mikeDnight]

I've seen the bright slither of nebulosity into which the horse head protrudes, through a Tak FC100DC. I observed this from the suburbs of Burnley in Lancashire. The night was transparent and my dark adaption was excellent due to observing from under a blackout hood for around 30mins on this one target. To date, it has been the single most difficult nebula I've so far seen in a 4" scope. The horse head itself was only hinted at and appeared only as an ill defined notch extending from the extensive dark nebula into the brighter nebula, and could only be noticed with averted vision, which made its precise placement on the sketch I made impossible. It was very tiny!

 

[JeremyS]

40 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

I've seen the bright slither of nebulosity into which the horse head protrudes, through a Tak FC100DC. I observed this from the suburbs of Burnley in Lancashire. The night was transparent and my dark adaption was excellent due to observing from under a blackout hood for around 30mins on this one target. To date, it has been the single most difficult nebula I've so far seen in a 4" scope. The horse head itself was only hinted at and appeared only as an ill defined notch extending from the extensive dark nebula into the brighter nebula, and could only be noticed with averted vision, which made its precise placement on the sketch I made impossible. It was very tiny!

 

Adding my “like” to this post seems totally inadequate. What a cracking observation and sketch!

[Froeng]

On 19/03/2022 at 21:18, mikeDnight said:

I've seen the bright slither of nebulosity into which the horse head protrudes, through a Tak FC100DC. I observed this from the suburbs of Burnley in Lancashire. The night was transparent and my dark adaption was excellent due to observing from under a blackout hood for around 30mins on this one target. To date, it has been the single most difficult nebula I've so far seen in a 4" scope. The horse head itself was only hinted at and appeared only as an ill defined notch extending from the extensive dark nebula into the brighter nebula, and could only be noticed with averted vision, which made its precise placement on the sketch I made impossible. It was very tiny!

 

What an incredible achievement and beautiful sketch. I have not seen the HH yet. For comparison - which one would you think is more challenging: the HH or the central portion of Pickering’s Triangle in the Cygnus Loop (I have seen this)?

[F15Rules]

On 19/03/2022 at 21:18, mikeDnight said:

I've seen the bright slither of nebulosity into which the horse head protrudes, through a Tak FC100DC. I observed this from the suburbs of Burnley in Lancashire. The night was transparent and my dark adaption was excellent due to observing from under a blackout hood for around 30mins on this one target. To date, it has been the single most difficult nebula I've so far seen in a 4" scope. The horse head itself was only hinted at and appeared only as an ill defined notch extending from the extensive dark nebula into the brighter nebula, and could only be noticed with averted vision, which made its precise placement on the sketch I made impossible. It was very tiny!

 

Wow!! Ok Mike, how about we do a swap..my FS128 and my eyes for your Tak 100 and your eyes??

Dave

[Franklin]

Would a visual H-beta filter improve the possibility of repeating this amazing observation?

[Pixies]

On 18/03/2022 at 16:50, M40 said:

Co-incidentally, a new member joined yesterday, Stephen Waldee, who seems to have a great deal of information available on his website about viewing the HH. Not sure how to do it, but see if you could link / bring this topic to his notice. 

Just type the '@' followed by the username and a notifiable reference will come up, like this:

@M40

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Pixies

[mikeDnight]

1 hour ago, Franklin said:

Would a visual H-beta filter improve the possibility of repeating this amazing observation?

Possibly, as H-beta certainly helps with the Flame nebula around Alnitak. Also, good dark adaption and transparent skies will help, as will prolonged observation of the area using averted vision.

Edited March 21, 2022 by mikeDnight

[mert]

I have seen it many times with scopes ranging from 12-22". I can see it most nights when the seeing is good. I have had quite a few h-beta filters but my Lumicon is my favorite. 

[jock1958]

Had given up any hope of seeing the Flame nebula through my 4" Tak, however @mikeDnight's excellent post & sketch has renewed my enthusiasm to try harder!

[badhex]

I tried for the flame in a 4" ED doublet with both OIII and UHC filters and saw... nothing. But then I live in a Bortle 7/8 area so hardly surprising. Hoping to try again from darker skies before Orion disappears. 

[Dave scutt]

I've been trying to find the HH and the flame Nebula in Bortle 2-3 with a 12"skywatcher and UHC and 0III filters but cannot see anything even with averted vision 

[mikeDnight]

22 hours ago, Dave scutt said:

I've been trying to find the HH and the flame Nebula in Bortle 2-3 with a 12"skywatcher and UHC and 0III filters but cannot see anything even with averted vision 

I think Alnitak is a problem. If it wasn't for Alnitak the Flame would be easy, but when it comes to IC434 its best to try and keep Alnitak out of the field. Also, transparency needs to be good. I struggled for ages under a blackout blanket, looking like elephant man gone wrong, until eventually a shard of bright nebulosity appeared, after which the rest of IC434  revealed itself.

[Deadlake]

15 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

keep Alnitak out of the field.

15 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

transparency needs to be good

I agree both are key to seeing it. Conditions during the night can vary hugely and it might just be that one night where everything is just right when you can see the flame and HH.

[Stu]

24 minutes ago, Deadlake said:

I agree both are key to seeing it. Conditions during the night can vary hugely and it might just be that one night where everything is just right when you can see the flame and HH.

Have you seen these in your scopes Martin?

[Deadlake]

3 hours ago, Stu said:

Have you seen these in your scopes Martin?

Yes and as I said very condition dependent. 

I actually keep a track of SQM, unless it gets over 21.10 where I live lot worth looking. 

I was surprised how much SQM varies over the night....

[Stu]

3 minutes ago, Deadlake said:

Yes and as I said very condition dependent. 

I actually keep a track of SQM, unless it gets over 21.10 where I live lot worth looking. 

I was surprised how much SQM varies over the night....

Is this optically or with NV? Which scope?

[Deadlake]

25 minutes ago, Stu said:

Is this optically or with NV? Which scope?

Optically:

5" LZOS at a dark site -> SQM 21.89 with OIII filter.
Borrowed C11  -> SQM 21.09 with OIII filter.

NVD works, just allows me to see it with the 5" in the back garden instead of going to the middle of Wales.

[Stu]

24 minutes ago, Deadlake said:

Optically:

5" LZOS at a dark site -> SQM 21.89 with OIII filter.
Borrowed C11  -> SQM 21.09 with OIII filter.

NVD works, just allows me to see it with the 5" in the back garden instead of going to the middle of Wales.

Thanks for the clarification.

Did you post those up on SGL? Would have been interesting to read about them.

Yep, I’ve seen it with (borrowed) NV from my back garden too.

[scarp15]

The Flame is a difficult object to see, requires optimum transparency and at least 21 mag SQM-L readings. Then Orion requires to be within or approaching the south, exit pupil plays a role to - experimenting with differing eyepieces and limiting the field, therefore try to keep Alnitak just outside the field stop. Visually the central dark lane becomes most apparent, then possibly the 'branch lines' to. Does not necessarily require a filter (do not personally use one) although some report a UHC being of a little assistance. In terms of aperture, well this account is related to using a 14" dob within at least 21.3 mag skies. 

Two references; firstly a H-beta filter will not assist at all to see the Flame.

A O-III will not assist at all to see the Horse Head. Whilst a H-beta filter is necessary and will. Even then, applying averted vision and comprehension. Unless using NV equipment aperture is king. 

There are good threads on this subject in Observers Deep Sky section and alternatively in the EEVA Reports section - Night Vision observing - which is probably more applicable with a small aperture scope whether in urban or dark sky settings.