When Betelgeuse perishes...

[Buqibu]

I know people say it will be one of the most spectacular events in modern astronomy, but would it really be that great? Based on the reports from the 1054 supernova, it will shine brighter than the full moon for months at night, and it will be clearly visible during the day for a long time as well. A "second sun" would pretty much make deep sky observation impossible for a while, and even though the photographs and scientific data that we would get from it would be amazing, I still feel like for the average amateur it would quite the shock. I read that it most likely won't damage the Earth in any way, but still quite scary to think about. How do you feel about it?

[Sunshine]

Good topic, I myself can’t wait for big B to go boom! I think it will really spark the curiosity of people the world over and what a better way to introduce the wonders of the universe to the masses who otherwise find the cosmos boring and an afterthought to regular daily affairs. If I was so fortunate to see such an event in my lifetime I would feel such an overwhelming sense of privilege that I surely would be overcome. In the unfathomable expanse of time our universes plays out in, our lives are such a minuscule flash, to be able to see Betelgeuse go nova would be like winning the cosmic lottery. Imagine how lucky we would be to have existed at just the right sliver of time. We alive today will never see our expansion out into the solar system much less interstellar travel, at least give us that, a relatively close supernova would be the next best thing.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Sunshine

[Alien 13]

I cant wait, June this year I recon 😋 and as bright as the Sun..

Alan

[Sunshine]

Just now, Alien 13 said:

I cant wait, June this year I recon 😋 and as bright as the Sun..

Alan

Oh June? I really need to get myself a farmers almanac, thanks for the heads up!.

[ONIKKINEN]

I would love to see it, whether its trouble for astronomy or not. Also, since i live at 60 degrees north, betelgeuse is always low in the sky or not visible at all, so i would mostly dodge the worst negative effects.

Since its so far away i doubt it would have any observable detail other than a very bright star for years and years. During my lifetime? Dont know. Someone more knowledgeable on the supernova remnant expansion rate could probably answer that.

[ollypenrice]

I think that, although it will be very bright as seen from the Earth, it will still be a point source and won't have anything like the illuminating power of the sun. In my understanding it will look like a very bright star, or something more like Venus, perhaps. It won't turn night into day. If humans are still around to see it, and I wouldn't bank on that, perhaps they'll name its remains The Betelgeuse Nebula?

Interestingly, the Crab Nebula and Betelgeuse are at similar distances but I'm not sure how much is known about the Crab's progenitor star.  It seems that the science on this is evolving, with the possibility that the supernova was of a new kind - or new to science, that is. 

Olly

Edited February 19, 2022 by ollypenrice
Clarification

[Elp]

What really strikes me with this hobby is the possibility that a lot of things we can see or image cease to exist how we witness them due to the expanse the light has to travel.

[ollypenrice]

1 hour ago, Elp said:

What really strikes me with this hobby is the possibility that a lot of things we can see or image cease to exist how we witness them due to the expanse the light has to travel.

Indeed, and that could easily include Betelgeuse right now...

Olly

[Leeps]

This is what I found on astronomy.com about it: 

So I guess you can take that as the magnitude prediction, and consider similar distance supernovae for the apparent sky size of the event?

Edit: Well our pal B is 650ish LY away, and the crab neb is 6500is LY away, so you can expect this to be 10x the apparent size of the crab nebula 😮 

2nd edit: And if the crab neb is around 7 arc mins that'd make this around 70 arc mins, and therefore around 2x the apparent diameter of the moon. I think it works like that...?

Edited February 19, 2022 by Leeps

[The Lazy Astronomer]

1 hour ago, Leeps said:

This is what I found on astronomy.com about it: 

So I guess you can take that as the magnitude prediction, and consider similar distance supernovae for the apparent sky size of the event?

Edit: Well our pal B is 650ish LY away, and the crab neb is 6500is LY away, so you can expect this to be 10x the apparent size of the crab nebula 😮 

2nd edit: And if the crab neb is around 7 arc mins that'd make this around 70 arc mins, and therefore around 2x the apparent diameter of the moon. I think it works like that...?

Perhaps, but we'd probably have to wait a very looong time for the shell to expand to that sort of size (Wikipedia says the crab nebula is about 1000 years old).

[Alien 13]

Would be interesting how long after the bang it would be before amateur scopes could resolve it beyond a point of light? perhaps some can now.

Alan

[maw lod qan]

As much as I would like to witness a supernova, I like Orion the way he looks now.

If I could have my wish, it would be to have my eye on my eyepiece, viewing old Luna when something left another huge crater. 

300 or 400 km would be spectacular enough.

But, I'm just wishing.

[callisto]

1 hour ago, maw lod qan said:

As much as I would like to witness a supernova, I like Orion the way he looks now.

If I could have my wish, it would be to have my eye on my eyepiece, viewing old Luna when something left another huge crater. 

300 or 400 km would be spectacular enough.

But, I'm just wishing.

Yeah, I've often thought of looking at the moon through my eyepiece at the same time something smack's into it 😲

[BDawg]

Hi-

I'm a newbie with a new Celestron 8 se.  Fascinated with space since I was a kid.  Took it out for the first time the other night and was ecstatic I saw M42 and Uranus on my first night.  Couldn't see the Crab Nebula, though (Bortle 4)

I'm also an engineer and do a lot of math. 

Assuming Betelgeuse and the star that formed the Crab Nebula are the same size:

Area of the surface of a sphere is 4 * pi * r^2.

So if the energy is uniformly radiated to the surface of the sphere, each unit of area will recieve an amount of radiation inversely proportional to (4*pi*d^2) where d is the distance to the star, or 1/(4*pi*d^2)

Doing the math:

Big B = 1 / (4 * pi * 6500 * 6500) = 1.88349045079e-9

Crab Nebula = 1 / (4 * pi * 650 * 650) = 1.88349045079e-7

Therefore, Betelgeuse should give us about 100 times the brightness/energy of the Crab Nebula based on the distance.

 

 

[Carbon Brush]

Lets suppose Betelgeuse goes soon. I mean in the next few years while the world is socially and politically in a state we are familiar with.
I realise the 'pop' in this time frame is unlikely, but bear with my imaginative speculation please.
How would Joe Public and those 'in authority' see it? would it change our behaviour and perception of the universe? Both short and long term.

How have past events been received?

Galileo got into serious bother for suggesting (among other things) the surface of the moon was not perfect.
A couple of hundred (or more) years back French museums chucked out their meteorite collections because wisdom said rocks don't fall from the sky.
The dinosaur extinction is just a story in a book. Weird evidence that you can't easily hold or see doesn't count for anything. When I was child nobody knew was killed the dinosaurs.
Those flattened forests in Siberia are just some 100+ years old grainy photos.
The recent meteor event in Russia was nothing more than dash & security camera images, then someone finding a rock in lake.

How many people (outside the astro community) noticed the recent great conjuction?
How many people (outside the astro community) realise Mars is larger and smaller in different years.
Of course if you read and believe the daily tabloid you were probably be looking for a moon size red disc🤣

Before the total solar eclipse of 1999 (visible from a corner of the UK) I asked travel agents about trips.
My thinking was an aircraft above the clouds would give a lot of people an experience of a lifetime, without all the hassle of long travel. I would have paid money for this.
But when I asked, nobody was offering trips and the travel agents hadn't even thought about it.

What I'm saying is that a red dot in the night sky that few notice (outside of astro), will not be missed.
Even if it becomes a daylight object for a few days/weeks, would anyone care?
How many (few) commented on the absence of contrails during the Iceland volcano (Eyjafjallajokull) eruption in 2010 that closed down aviation.

I think Betelgeuse going 'pop' in whatever way would be facinating to amateur astronomers and scientists.
It might get a few forward thinking teachers to show pupils but I doubt it.
In my school days nobody else (including science teachers) was bothered about partial solar eclipses that were visible in lesson time. I brought in my own 35mm exposed film pieces.
As for anyone else. Is there a new season of Game Of Seats or Lovely Island Rescue on TV anytime soon?
I read somewhere (but can't find the source) after Apollo 11, a US TV network stopped showing live launches. Preferring to show re-runs of old Lucille Ball shows.

A ramble that I hope is thought provoking.

David.

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

3 hours ago, Carbon Brush said:

How would Joe Public and those 'in authority' see it? would it change our behaviour and perception of the universe? Both short and long term.

Even if it becomes a daylight object for a few days/weeks, would anyone care?
 

 

 

No and no. 🙄

Although I do think if the supernova is a bright daytime object, news outlets will give it column space for clicks/sales, but the novelty will wear off after twenty four hours.

What surprises me is even people with great skies don't give a hoot. I remember at Kielder having a conservation with a nice chap who lived there, he barely looked up. Likewise a farmer in the Yorskhire Dales who hadn't a clue. The Milky Way was glorious and she was oblivious...

 

[Carbon Brush]

@ScouseSpaceCadet Sadly I have to agree with the news coverage.

Thinking about the Kielder resident and Yorkshire Dales farmer.
We tend not to notice what is around us, unless it changes suddenly.
Or we take everything that is around us for granted and assume everyone enjoys the same.

Fortunately for Kielder and the dales, they live in a lovely place. Not having just the night sky, but many other natural wonders.
Places many of us only experience for short holidays. But at least we can visit to enjoy and appreciate these things.

 

[jjohnson3803]

On 19/02/2022 at 08:37, maw lod qan said:

As much as I would like to witness a supernova, I like Orion the way he looks now.

If I could have my wish, it would be to have my eye on my eyepiece, viewing old Luna when something left another huge crater.

I agree 100%.  While a supernova would be spectacular, it would ruin the look of Orion.  A new, large lunar crater would be pretty cool.  Depending on how well the Musk et. al. moon landers work out, we might be seeing a new crater or two in a few years.  😉