Can you upgrade binoviewer eyepiece holders?

[Paz]

I use maxbright 2 binoviewers which I have collimated myself but it is a very fiddly and time consuming process because you have to take things apart and tighten/loosen things and put it all together again and repeat until you have it right.

I know some binoviewers are designed with user adjustable collimation such as the binotron.

I was wondering is it possible to replace my eyepiece holders with ones that are easier to collimate myself rather than buying a different binoviewer as I like the small size and light weight of the maxbright 2 and I'm used to configuring it for all sorts of different scopes and magnifications.

I've never heard of anyone doing this but thought it worth asking.

[Rusted]

Denis Levatić | Astrosell

[Paz]

11 hours ago, Rusted said:

Denis Levatić | Astrosell

I've read a lot about what Denis does and those would be amazing but they are a cost that would not get political approval in my household!

[Rusted]

I am not sure whether Denis is still "supercharging" binoviewers for private customers.
He is/was most active on CN. No doubt a little research over there would be illuminating.
Contacting Denis for his expert advice might be very useful. Provided one has the skill to carry out the work oneself.
Failing that, I would be studying self-centering eyepiece adapters to see if anything is a direct swap for the originals.
Thread size may be the key. I haven't seen these binoviewers so can't really advise on what is involved.
Worst case, a lathe might be necessary. Don't do anything "life changing" if things don't simply unscrew.

[Ricochet]

Why are you attempting to collimate a pair of Maxbright 2s? If there is a fault with then contact Baader and they will repair or replace them (the latter being subject to new stock). 

[Paz]

3 hours ago, Ricochet said:

Why are you attempting to collimate a pair of Maxbright 2s? If there is a fault with then contact Baader and they will repair or replace them (the latter being subject to new stock). 

The binoviewers were fine, it's my eyes that were the problem (it turns out one eye is very slightly lower than the other) and it was through adjusting the collimation that I discovered this. I've got it almost back to perfect but not quite. It's just that it takes a lot of time and trial/error to adjust.

[PeterC65]

1 hour ago, Paz said:

The binoviewers were fine, it's my eyes that were the problem (it turns out one eye is very slightly lower than the other) and it was through adjusting the collimation that I discovered this. I've got it almost back to perfect but not quite. It's just that it takes a lot of time and trial/error to adjust.

Can you describe the symptoms that made you realise that your eyes were out and that the binoviewer needed collimation?

I ask because I've purchased the William Optics Binoviewer and I could only get the two images to align by pushing upwards slightly on the right hand eyepiece. Without doing this the two images were very close but not quite aligned, so different from the situation were your brain is failing to combine the two images and they remain quite far apart. When I say "very close" I mean that when looking at a distant Georgian window frame in daylight I could make out a double set of glazing bars. Is this the kind of thing you experienced?

I returned the Binoviewer and am currently awaiting a replacement, but the supplier could not find a problem with the original one which is making me wonder if I will have the same problem with the replacement.

[Rusted]

Binoviewer misalignment made me feel very dizzy.
It was tying to make my eyes and brain work hard just to align the misaligned images.
The replacement was fine and I could relax and see more detail than with one eye.
The same holds true with misaligned binoculars. I collected lots from charity shops for small change.
Almost all of them were badly misaligned. Presumably that's why they were "donated."
 

[Louis D]

I found that the only alignment problem I was having with my Arcturus BVs, which do have self centering holders, was due to eyepieces with undercuts tipping in the holder during the tightening process.  I have to cram them down while tightening to prevent them from popping up at an angle.  I should just fill the undercuts with pinstriping tape.

[Paz]

3 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

Can you describe the symptoms that made you realise that your eyes were out and that the binoviewer needed collimation?

Here's a summary of my experience...

If I just look normally at a distant object with both eyes (no scopes, no binos etc) it looks merged, as you would expect.

Then if I alternate which eye is looking at that object by shutting one eye alternately, through my left eye it looks low/right and then swapping to my right eye the object jumps up/left.

Looking through binoviewers I get the same issue, if I blink to alternate which eye is looking the object jumps the same way making me think the binoviewers are out of collimation.

So I recollimate using this blink test (as I call it). Now there is no jumping and things seem fine.

But then if I move an object to the field stop to check it hits the stop at the same points in both eyepieces, which is a more objective test, it is clear that things are not aligned.

It turns out my right eye is slightly lower than my left. So when I use binoviewers I have to tilt the right eyepiece down slightly. They look wrong if I look at them but once I'm looking through them they look right.

So I recollimate using the field stops and I don't do the blink test. Then I roll the binoviewers right side down to align with my eyes. Then the last thing I do is I hang back and get focused on infinity looking through the eyepieces to the object as I move up to the eyepieces and I keep mindful of the field stops looking correct in each eye.

Now things look fine(!). If however I start blinking  the image starts jumping and I start thinking my binoviewers are misaligned but they aren't... this is just the same as if I blink just looking at anything naked eye.

So I went through this convoluted process and the maxbright 2s were my 5th binoviewer. All the ones I had before I thought were out of collimation but none were adjustable.

The  maxbrights 2s are adjustable which allowed me to  investigate the issue further. They were sound from the start and I ended up adjusting them trying to work out the problem.

The whole thing then boiled down to me figuring out a technique for using binoviewers that worked for me. 

[Louis D]

And no optometrist ever caught this during an eye exam?  You have to look through a binoviewer-like device (a phoropter) that should have flagged this.

I believe prism correction in eyeglasses would solve your problem based on your description.

[Paz]

47 minutes ago, Louis D said:

And no optometrist ever caught this during an eye exam?  You have to look through a binoviewer-like device (a phoropter) that should have flagged this.

I believe prism correction in eyeglasses would solve your problem based on your description.

That is very interesting. I've had routine eye tests over time, none have flagged this but I could not say if they were testing for it. I can say I never noticed it in normal life, it was only because I got into a pickle with binoviewing that I've become aware of something being a bit odd.

[Don Pensack]

4 hours ago, Louis D said:

I found that the only alignment problem I was having with my Arcturus BVs, which do have self centering holders, was due to eyepieces with undercuts tipping in the holder during the tightening process.  I have to cram them down while tightening to prevent them from popping up at an angle.  I should just fill the undercuts with pinstriping tape.

Which will solve the problem.  I use copper tape.

Don

[PeterC65]

Thanks for that explanation @Paz. Reading the description of the condition Strabismus which @Louis D referred to, it seems that the main symptom is double vision. Is this what you experience when looking through the binoviewer with both eyes open and without the special collimation? Do you experience the problem with binoculars or only with the binoviewer?

I don't have double vision normally, or with binoculars, but did experience it with the first binoviewer I was sent. Strabismus seems to be caused by an axial misalignment of the eyes and this is what I would have been adjusting by pushing upwards on the right hand eyepiece. It sounds like you might have the same issue.

Given the large number of people who 'don't get on with binoviewers' or who've had 4-5 sets before finding one that works for them, I'm wondering if there is something about binoviewers that makes them particularly sensitive to axial misalignment of the eyes. It may be that lots of people have a slight misalignment that is not normally apparent but is revealed when using binoviewers.

I wonder what's different about binoviewers, compared with binoculars, that might explain a sensitivity to axial misalignment of the eyes?

 

[Paz]

2 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

Thanks for that explanation @Paz. Reading the description of the condition Strabismus which @Louis D referred to, it seems that the main symptom is double vision. Is this what you experience when looking through the binoviewer with both eyes open and without the special collimation? Do you experience the problem with binoculars or only with the binoviewer?

I don't have double vision normally, or with binoculars, but did experience it with the first binoviewer I was sent. Strabismus seems to be caused by an axial misalignment of the eyes and this is what I would have been adjusting by pushing upwards on the right hand eyepiece. It sounds like you might have the same issue.

Given the large number of people who 'don't get on with binoviewers' or who've had 4-5 sets before finding one that works for them, I'm wondering if there is something about binoviewers that makes them particularly sensitive to axial misalignment of the eyes. It may be that lots of people have a slight misalignment that is not normally apparent but is revealed when using binoviewers.

I wonder what's different about binoviewers, compared with binoculars, that might explain a sensitivity to axial misalignment of the eyes?

 

Personally I see a lot of merit in a hypothesis that people may have eye issues that are not noticeable and not a problem in normal life but which will become noticeable and a problem when binoviewing.

I think the higher the magnification the more critical everything becomes.

I was quite despondent about it, reading reports from users of binoviewers seeing details I could not see or having long observing sessions that I would not be able to sustain in Cyclops mode so I kept trying.

I don't get double vision in normal life, and my binoviewers are back to good enough that I don't get double vision in them now, but I can see they are not quite aligned if I do the field stop test and if I observe for an extended time I get a bit of eye strain which is a sign they are slightly out (I've checked everything else such as IPD and getting the focus exactly right for each eye).

I use 8x bins a lot and have no issue with those and I can see they are correctly aligned, but I always have to be mindful of my eye placement.

[Rusted]

Daft question: If one eye is lower than the other why not just rotate one's head to compensate?
Surely the image orientation should rotate to match?

I saw the moon and stars as double for decades until my eyes adapted, with old age, to neutral at infinity.
My need for .75 diopter distance spectacles simply vanished over a years or so.
Probably because I never wore my glasses on my bike when I took up high mileage cycling.
I am cured! Except for the stack of different strength, reading glasses. 👓 

[PeterC65]

1 hour ago, Rusted said:

Daft question: If one eye is lower than the other why not just rotate one's head to compensate?
Surely the image orientation should rotate to match?

I think what @Paz means is that the axis of one eye is pointing downwards slightly compared to the other eye.

After doing some research, it does seem that it is the higher magnification that's likely to make this effect more noticeable with binoviewers than with (lower magnification) binoculars.

The replacement binoviewer is due to arrive tomorrow so I will be able to check whether my issue was with the unit or my eyes.

[Paz]

4 hours ago, Rusted said:

Daft question: If one eye is lower than the other why not just rotate one's head to compensate?
Surely the image orientation should rotate to match?

That is a good question, my solution ultimately is that I rotate my binoviewers slightly right side down so I can hold my head naturally which achieves the same result and then I try to ensure I see each field stop the same.

It's more obvious in hindsight but it's also only a very slight adjustment, I doubt most people would notice if they looked at my set up when I'm using it.

[spartinix]

Other eyepiece holders will not take care of crucial collimation, as they usually sit on top of some collimation system.

Only binoviewers with a lateral collimation system like the Binotron make it really easy.
Such a thing can be implemented though.