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StuartT
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  • 4 weeks later...
On 03/02/2022 at 17:33, StuartT said:

Thanks! Just ordered the Apollo M 👍

Hi Stuart, which one did you get in the Apollo range, and have you used it yet?

Starfield  optics doesn't seem like they have many items to sell being the sole UK distributor

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4 hours ago, newbie alert said:

Hi Stuart, which one did you get in the Apollo range, and have you used it yet?

Starfield  optics doesn't seem like they have many items to sell being the sole UK distributor

I bought the Apollo M mini for solar. I love it!

I think mine came from Ontario Telescope

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4 hours ago, newbie alert said:

Hi Stuart, which one did you get in the Apollo range, and have you used it yet?

Starfield  optics doesn't seem like they have many items to sell being the sole UK distributor

let me clarify. I did in fact order from Starfield, but when it arrived, it had come from Ontario Telescope, so I guess Starfield sell on from there?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Interestingly, the company has announced IMX533 planetary cameras (non cooled), which are intriguing (both in color and monochrome versions, with a very small price difference)

 

https://player-one-astronomy.com/product/saturn-m-sqr-usb3-0-mono-camera-imx533/

https://player-one-astronomy.com/product/saturn-c-sqr-usb3-0-color-camera-imx533/

N.F.

 

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These look interesting, the colour version bein a good price point. Might be good for lucky imaging.

I'm guessing the fact it's non-cooled will make noise a problem on long exposures that deep sky stuff requires? Or do these newer BSI Starvis 2 sensors have such lower noise than what we are accustomed to with older sensors?

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I suppose that, if you are shooting in cold climate, cooling isn't strictly necessary (but a cooler helps also with consistency).

Probably this sensor seems destined to be used in 'live stacking' applications, not only planetary stuff.

N.F.

 

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I was watching a video by the guy who made sharpcap, and depending on the sensor noise, telescope f ratio, exposure length and ambient light pollution, you might still get away with decent longer exposures with this without cooling.  At least that was my understanding.

I'm very tempted I must say.  Although Im a ways out from a dedicated astrocam so I'll be able to see how others get on once they actually ship.

I've no doubt the crazy french on that eaa forum will be pushing it with eaa and longer exposures.

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4 hours ago, Ratlet said:

I was watching a video by the guy who made sharpcap, and depending on the sensor noise, telescope f ratio, exposure length and ambient light pollution, you might still get away with decent longer exposures with this without cooling.  At least that was my understanding.

 

Noise comes from the camera electronics.. the whole idea of a cooled camera is to reduce noise

You don't need to have a cooled camera for short exposures like what you do with lucky imaging.. but for longer exposures any cooling will reduce noise on any camera regardless of f ratio, light pollution..don't agree that noise generated from the camera has anything to do with the light pollution etc.. otherwise we would all still be using DSLR's still

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I think the sharp cap argument was more that reducing your noise below number of electron generated by the sensor by photons of light pollution impacting the sensor provides little benefit as the noise will be swamped out by the LP until that point anyway.

There were lots of provisos on how much of an impact this would have depending on the type of imaging being done (osc, narrowband, etc).  

Link to the talk below:

 

Its a really interesting talk.  The stuff about gain that he skips over at the end is on the sharpcap YouTube channel.

All I'm saying is that the camera might produce some really nice images without cooling, depending on what you are imaging with and where you are imaging.

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20 hours ago, nfotis said:

I suppose that, if you are shooting in cold climate, cooling isn't strictly necessary

The average temperature during my nights out with the scope was -1 celsius for the past season, and i missed the 2 coldest months of January and February entirely so it could have been around -5 if i got the typical 2-4 nights per month.

So for me it would be very much possible to shoot with an uncooled camera like this since the 533 has next to no dark current below -5.

I kind of do this already actually since if its colder than -10 outside i have no matching darks or bias, since i cant easily take -25 or similar frames from indoors (and cant be bothered to, since dark current is so low).

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2 hours ago, Ratlet said:

I think the sharp cap argument was more that reducing your noise below number of electron generated by the sensor by photons of light pollution impacting the sensor provides little benefit as the noise will be swamped out by the LP until that point anyway.

There were lots of provisos on how much of an impact this would have depending on the type of imaging being done (osc, narrowband, etc).  

Link to the talk below:

 

Its a really interesting talk.  The stuff about gain that he skips over at the end is on the sharpcap YouTube channel.

All I'm saying is that the camera might produce some really nice images without cooling, depending on what you are imaging with and where you are imaging.

It still won't produce the same quality subs as one with cooling on long exposures as that's where dark frame noise comes from... No matter where it's taken and with what

Think he was pushing the read noise/ CMOS style of imaging..  he also pushes the very short sub and many of them style which is a positive for LP areas... Great if you agree with what Robin advocates

Edited by newbie alert
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  • 2 weeks later...

He's saying that there is a point where exposure length simply won't improve the signal to noise ratio by a significant amount anymore. The max signal to noise ratio is determined by all noise factors the biggest of which is light pollution and then read noise (when stacking) and then thermal noise and then shot noise. If you live in a city like 82.9% of UK citizens do then light pollution is by far and away the biggest driver over how good your images could possibly be and that limit means there is simply no point going for long exposures, short exposures then mean that other noise apart from read noise is consequently even less important. 

No one is arguing that cooling the camera to remove thermal noise isn't always better they are just saying for those of us that live in the real world of light pollution is just not that important as we can't take those long exposures needed to see any benefit.

Most of us would do better trying to remove the effect of light pollution via filters first before buying anymore equipment. Once thats done long exposures become a reality for us and we can start caring about thermal noise.

Additionally most of us will be coming from older DSLR's, going to an uncooled modern IMX sensor will already significantly increase our quantum efficiency and reduce the amount of all noise sources in our images compared to what we are used to. They won't be the best but they will be way better. 

Edited by PlankWithANailIn
More bettereer.
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2 hours ago, PlankWithANailIn said:

He's saying that there is a point where exposure length simply won't improve the signal to noise ratio by a significant amount anymore. The max signal to noise ratio is determined by all noise factors the biggest of which is light pollution and then read noise (when stacking) and then thermal noise and then shot noise. If you live in a city like 82.9% of UK citizens do then light pollution is by far and away the biggest driver over how good your images could possibly be and that limit means there is simply no point going for long exposures, short exposures then mean that other noise apart from read noise is consequently even less important. 

No one is arguing that cooling the camera to remove thermal noise isn't always better they are just saying for those of us that live in the real world of light pollution is just not that important as we can't take those long exposures needed to see any benefit.

Most of us would do better trying to remove the effect of light pollution via filters first before buying anymore equipment. Once thats done long exposures become a reality for us and we can start caring about thermal noise.

Additionally most of us will be coming from older DSLR's, going to an uncooled modern IMX sensor will already significantly increase our quantum efficiency and reduce the amount of all noise sources in our images compared to what we are used to. They won't be the best but they will be way better. 

You've said it far more eloquently than I could have.

From where I am sitting the Saturn is a very tasty little camera.  The thermal noise compared to other sensors is very good especially compared to something like the 294 so could potentially produce some very good images.  Certainly better than my t3i.  It could be a versatile all-rounder.

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