First Scope - Startravel 120 or Skymax 127

[Yubnub]

Hi everyone. I've seen so many captures of Saturn's rings from amateur astronomers now (weather it's stacked photos or live iPhone footage etc) I've become convinced I need this ability in my life. 

I was totally ignorant to the possibility of seeing REAL details like this. So, I began the research for what would be necessary and the likely cost for my equipment.

I'm Happy to go circa £500 (give or take a little to close the deal). As much as I like the bang-for-buck Dobsonian options, I just cant see myself conveniently storing it and dragging it all outside. A reasonably compact setup is needed.

I've [maybe] narrowed it down to the Sky-Watcher: Startravel 120 Refractor or the Skymax 127 Maksutov. These seem to give the most affordable aperture for the expected magnification to see Saturn/Jupiter and great Lunar detail.

Astrophotography isn't really on my mind but, I bet I'll at least want to try to capture something with my Olympus micro4/3 (I know, not an ideal sensor) or iPhone. Visual and Observing is where I get most facinated, nothing but the scope between me and the light from the object ...awesome!

Then I start thinking about mounts...to track or not to track? ...learn to find the stuff yourself or let the mount find and hold an object and just sit and stare at it hands free? I almost want both 😆

So, have I picked some good kit or am I missing obvious options? also, happy to consider secondhand to maximise budget. 

 

Thanks everyone 

[johninderby]

The Startravel 120 is a decent wide field low power scope but the Skymax 127 would be the choice for high mag lunar  and planetary observing.  

The Startravel suffers from CA when you try to push the mag but not a problem with the mak.

The Skymax 127 on the AZ-GTi mount is a good budget GOTO setup or the 127 on an AZ5 manual mount is also good if you want to find your own way around. Remember with a GOTO setup you will have to first align the mount before using.

Which is best? Neither really as both have their good points.

Edited January 26, 2022 by johninderby

[Cosmic Geoff]

The 127mm Maksutov is an instrument with various uses, and is one you are likely to want to keep.  The Startravel is likely to be less versatile.  I have telescopes similar to both, and rarely use the Startravel for anything other than basic (EVAA) imaging of deep sky objects. The obvious visual application of a Startravel is for widefield views, but in practice in Bortle 6 skies the results are under-whelming.

If you can afford (or want) GoTo it greatly extends the things you can do with a given telescope.

[Yubnub]

Ok fab info thanks.

I was convinced I had settled on the 127mm Maksutov. I then started to see reviews of the Startravel 120T and how crisp the focus and contrast was over a similar sized cassegrain where the central obstruction kills the max magnification capabilities. 

So I saw the 120T and it's slight cost saving (which could enable some good eyepieces on or close to budget) as the new decision... 

[Carbon Brush]

When you set out to buy any package, the money is shared between the scope, the mount, and the electronics.
To reach a bottom line price, things have to be compromised in the glass, the mount, or the goto.

As a general rule, a scope/mount package will have the flimsiest mount that can be sold.
If you want photography, think in terms of going to the next size up (or two sizes) mount.

If you buy a dob, most of the money can go into the scope. A Basic wood base costs little and no electronics.

The SW127 (I have one) is fine for what it is. Narrow FOV is nice on planets. Not a 'photo' scope.

A refractor in the 80 to 100mm range will give nice results, visual or camera. BUT.....
A long tube (focal length) places extras burden on the mount and tends towards the narrow FOV of the mak.
If you buy a short ftube refractor, unless you hand over lots of money, you will get chromatic abberration when the magnification goes up.
I used to own a Startravel 102. Nice at low magnification. not in the class of some. Plenty of enjoyment for the ££ spent at the time.

Even a dob will produce nice photos of bright objects. The big mirror gathers a lot of light allowing short exposures.
If you get individual images, then stack in software.....

Right now you are dabbling with the idea of astrophotography. That is good.
If you want to take it seriously, pop to the builders merchant and buy a large wheelbarrow. Once you have filled this with £10 notes...
Yes astrophotography can consume huge sums of money.

Sorry no easy answers! But keep asking.

David.

 

[johninderby]

Forget about central obstruction. In the real world there are many more important factors that make for the best views.

Optical performance of the mak is in a different league to the Startravel with more contrast and sharper images.One thing you will quickly discover that no one telescope will do it all. Most on SGL own at least a couple of scopes. Commonly a lunar / planetary scope and a widefield scope for DSOs.

A smartphone can take good lunar or planetary pics. Here’s one with an 80mm refractor.

Edited January 26, 2022 by johninderby

[banjaxed]

I have both scopes you mention and I like them both but the one I use the most is the 127 Mak as it does not need as heavy a mount as the ST120. The Mak is manageable to carry in one piece whereas the ST has to be carried in 2 pieces ie, Mount and scope. However I cannot see me selling either. Another thing to take in to account is the eyepieces are not as critical in the Mak as the ST.

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

Excellent advice has been provided above.

41 minutes ago, Yubnub said:

Ok fab info thanks.

I was convinced I had settled on the 127mm Maksutov. I then started to see reviews of the Startravel 120T and how crisp the focus and contrast was over a similar sized cassegrain where the central obstruction kills the max magnification capabilities. 

So I saw the 120T and it's slight cost saving (which could enable some good eyepieces on or close to budget) as the new decision... 

You have possibly misinterpreted those reviews.  I have not owned a 127mm Maksutov (only the 102mm). However based on my ownership of its smaller sibling, reviews, comments on these forums and understanding optics better than when I started, the high focal ratio but compact 127mm Maksutov is for its size & price perfect for planetary, lunar, double stars, globular clusters and brighter galaxies if your sky is dark enough. I'm actually about to buy one soon to replace my recently sold 102mm version precisely because it will fit well with my existing mounts and I've no doubt great for those relaxed summer lunar sessions I like.

The ST120 was my second telescope. A great, relatively cheap wide field scope - open clusters, extended nebula and brighter galaxy groups under dark skies are fantastic with it but, due to the low focal ratio, it begins to struggle as magnification is increased to those required for decent planetary,  lunar and splitting double stars etc.

So you see above, the Maksutov edges out the Startravel as a Jack of *Most* trades. Added to this, the Mak is easier to store and being much lighter & shorter than the ST120, far easier to mount.

The AZGTI is a versatile little mount. There's a thread dedicated to them on the forums. The Point and Track function is particularly useful for planetary, solar and lunar observing. Goto isn't magical though, there is still a moderate learning curve to get the most out of it.

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by ScouseSpaceCadet
Link

[johninderby]

If you did get the Skymax127 on the AZ-GTi mount you could always buy a refractor for widefield use later on and use it on the same mount.

[PeterC65]

A year ago I had the same dilemma and the same budget as you. I was after my first scope, for visual use only, as I just wanted to see those things in the photographs with my own eyes.

The first thing to say is about expectations. If you’ve been looking at astrophotography images then you will be underwhelmed by what you can see visually. That’s not to say that it isn’t a thrill to see the rings of Saturn, crater detail on the Moon, or the amazing clouds of M42, but it is way less than you might expect from the photographs!

After much deliberation I went for the Skymax 127 on a SynScan AZ GOTO mount and I’m happy that this was the right choice.

The Skymax 127 is compact and convenient, it has an OK aperture size and is capable of a good range of magnification (around x60 to x250). Great for the Moon and planets, and for most DSOs. Where it lacks is field of view (and lower magnification which is related). The maximum field of view with the Skymax 127 is about 1° of sky which is fine for the Moon (0.5°) and many other objects, but not for larger objects like M45.

I also debated whether I should buy a GOTO mount of learn to find objects. I’m very glad I bought the GOTO and think I would have found this hobby much more frustrating without it. GOTO isn’t perfect but it does get you almost on target, and perhaps more importantly, it tracks the object, so you just have to concern yourself with observing it (which is much more involved than I had ever imagined).

Since I started observing last year, I’ve also bought a second scope that gives a much wider field of view (and lower magnification range). It’s an apochromatic refractor, 72mm aperture and 432mm focal length, so a smaller but higher spec version of the Startravel 120. I use both scopes now on the SynScan AZ GOTO mount, selecting one to use for a particular session depending on what I want to observe.

The thing I keep craving is (much) bigger aperture as I struggle to see nebulae or galaxies that are less than quite bright. Again after much deliberation I’ve decided that an aperture bigger than 5” is just not possible with the SynScan AZ GOTO mount, or with most manual mounts, as they are usually limited to a 5kg load. So to get a (much) bigger aperture the only economic options are a manual Dobsonian and sacrifice GOTO, or for quite a bit more money, a GOTO Dobsonian.

For the time being I will be making the most of the Skymax 127 and the refractor!

 

[cajen2]

4 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

A year ago I had the same dilemma and the same budget as you. I was after my first scope, for visual use only, as I just wanted to see those things in the photographs with my own eyes.

The first thing to say is about expectations. If you’ve been looking at astrophotography images then you will be underwhelmed by what you can see visually. That’s not to say that it isn’t a thrill to see the rings of Saturn, crater detail on the Moon, or the amazing clouds of M42, but it is way less than you might expect from the photographs!

After much deliberation I went for the Skymax 127 on a SynScan AZ GOTO mount and I’m happy that this was the right choice.

The Skymax 127 is compact and convenient, it has an OK aperture size and is capable of a good range of magnification (around x60 to x250). Great for the Moon and planets, and for most DSOs. Where it lacks is field of view (and lower magnification which is related). The maximum field of view with the Skymax 127 is about 1° of sky which is fine for the Moon (0.5°) and many other objects, but not for larger objects like M45.

I also debated whether I should buy a GOTO mount of learn to find objects. I’m very glad I bought the GOTO and think I would have found this hobby much more frustrating without it. GOTO isn’t perfect but it does get you almost on target, and perhaps more importantly, it tracks the object, so you just have to concern yourself with observing it (which is much more involved than I had ever imagined).

Since I started observing last year, I’ve also bought a second scope that gives a much wider field of view (and lower magnification range). It’s an apochromatic refractor, 72mm aperture and 432mm focal length, so a smaller but higher spec version of the Startravel 120. I use both scopes now on the SynScan AZ GOTO mount, selecting one to use for a particular session depending on what I want to observe.

The thing I keep craving is (much) bigger aperture as I struggle to see nebulae or galaxies that are less than quite bright. Again after much deliberation I’ve decided that an aperture bigger than 5” is just not possible with the SynScan AZ GOTO mount, or with most manual mounts, as they are usually limited to a 5kg load. So to get a (much) bigger aperture the only economic options are a manual Dobsonian and sacrifice GOTO, or for quite a bit more money, a GOTO Dobsonian.

For the time being I will be making the most of the Skymax 127 and the refractor!

 

It is possible to use a Flextube dob on your mount: my 150p has a Vixen dovetail.

[cajen2]

The OTA on mine weighs 3.7kg, including dovetail and RDF but no EP.

[PeterC65]

43 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

It is possible to use a Flextube dob on your mount: my 150p has a Vixen dovetail.

It might just be possible to use a 150mm Newtonian on the SynScan AZ GOTO mount. Most of these weight about 5kg so they would be pushing the limit once you add the other bits and pieces. I hadn't considered the Flextube 150P, and as you mention, it would probably stay under the weight limit. It has a very basic focuser though, and any 150mm Newtonian only gains me a little extra aperture over the 127mm MAK. I did consider this route (I even ordered an Explorer 150PDS) but decided that the small increase in aperture wasn't worth the cost and possible risk to the mount.

If I ever go for more aperture it is likely to be with a StellaLyra 10" Dobsonian, but I'm still not convinced I'd be happy without the GOTO.

[JDF]

3 hours ago, Yubnub said:

Hi everyone. I've seen so many captures of Saturn's rings from amateur astronomers now (weather it's stacked photos or live iPhone footage etc) I've become convinced I need this ability in my life. 

I was totally ignorant to the possibility of seeing REAL details like this. So, I began the research for what would be necessary and the likely cost for my equipment.

I'm Happy to go circa £500 (give or take a little to close the deal). As much as I like the bang-for-buck Dobsonian options, I just cant see myself conveniently storing it and dragging it all outside. A reasonably compact setup is needed.

I've [maybe] narrowed it down to the Sky-Watcher: Startravel 120 Refractor or the Skymax 127 Maksutov. These seem to give the most affordable aperture for the expected magnification to see Saturn/Jupiter and great Lunar detail.

Astrophotography isn't really on my mind but, I bet I'll at least want to try to capture something with my Olympus micro4/3 (I know, not an ideal sensor) or iPhone. Visual and Observing is where I get most facinated, nothing but the scope between me and the light from the object ...awesome!

Then I start thinking about mounts...to track or not to track? ...learn to find the stuff yourself or let the mount find and hold an object and just sit and stare at it hands free? I almost want both 😆

So, have I picked some good kit or am I missing obvious options? also, happy to consider secondhand to maximise budget. 

 

Thanks everyone 

I'll just echo what others have said, I was in the same position Summer 2020 and went for the Skymax on an AZ5 mount, if you can get the goto it will certainly help in locating less obvious targets as it can be tricky at start with the narrow FOV. It's a cracking little scope for Lunar and Planetary viewing.

[Yubnub]

Oh great. Thanks guys this is really positive stuff! 

[Stu]

1 hour ago, PeterC65 said:

If I ever go for more aperture it is likely to be with a StellaLyra 10" Dobsonian, but I'm still not convinced I'd be happy without the GOTO.

You could always add the push to kit…

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-mount-upgrade-kits/asterion-push-to-kit-for-gso-deluxe-dobsonians.html

2 hours ago, cajen2 said:

It is possible to use a Flextube dob on your mount: my 150p has a Vixen dovetail.

I always use my Heritage 150p on an alt Az mount, not the supplied base. It makes it much easier to use because it is at a comfortable height. With a Giro style mount it’s easy, with others like the AZ4 or the Synscan AZ Goto which carry the scope ‘inboard’ you just need to make sure there is enough clearance for the larger OTA.

 

To the OP @Yubnub, the 127 Mak makes a lot of sense for lunar and planetary visual and a bit of smartphone imaging. I guess there is also the Bresser 127 which I think has a true 127mm aperture vs the 120 for the Skywatcher?

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bresser-telescopes/bresser-messier-mc-127-1900-maksutov-cassegrain-ota.html
 

Would obviously need a mount which could bust the budget.

[PeterC65]

3 minutes ago, Stu said:

You could always add the push to kit…

I have considered the push to kit, or perhaps just a setting circle and inclinometer, but I do value the tracking capability of the GOTO mount. Sometime I plan to try using the MAK without the computer engaged, so finding objects via their Alt-Az coordinates (from Stellarium) and then tracking them by hand (just using the hand controller) to see if that would be frustrating.

[Stu]

1 hour ago, PeterC65 said:

I have considered the push to kit, or perhaps just a setting circle and inclinometer, but I do value the tracking capability of the GOTO mount. Sometime I plan to try using the MAK without the computer engaged, so finding objects via their Alt-Az coordinates (from Stellarium) and then tracking them by hand (just using the hand controller) to see if that would be frustrating.

Yep, tracking can be useful for high power tracking certainly. I often use an EQ platform with my 8” dob which gives the tracking but obviously not the push to. I think you can use push to with an EQ platform but I guess it needs recalibrating every 45 mins which is probably a pain.

I’ve even used the platform with a standard AltAz mount on a tripod although you have to be pretty careful about balance and stability, hence the bungee. Worked well though, tracking the sun in Ha and White light at high power. Apologies for the pink shed and the shabby shed 🤣🤣

[Yubnub]

On 26/01/2022 at 17:44, Stu said:

 

To the OP @Yubnub, the 127 Mak makes a lot of sense for lunar and planetary visual and a bit of smartphone imaging. I guess there is also the Bresser 127 which I think has a true 127mm aperture vs the 120 for the Skywatcher?

Yeah I had seen this OTA and pondered the same option. You’re right though, possible budget breaker. 
 

thanks though!

[johninderby]

The Bresser 127 now includes a solar filter which can be usefull. Had one and found it edged out the SW mak due to the increased aperture. However as the OTA and mount would have to bought seperatey that does push up the price.

Edited January 27, 2022 by johninderby