Next steps with astrophotography set-up.

[Jim Smith]

I'm a bit stuck knowing what to try next for my DSO set-up.

I have a SW 130pds Newtonian mounted on a SW AZ-EQ5 GT. I use a Nikon Z50.

My current method is to start siderial tracking on the mount, find objects with the red dot finder by slewing with the mount handset. I focus with a Bahtinov mask, take a test shot then use the camera's intervalometer to take many 30s exposures. I'm quite happy with the results.

But I find the mount handset awkward and difficult to use. Also my ancient body is finding it more challenging to position itself so that I can see through the finder. So I am looking for an improved method.

I want to use a laptop to control the mount and camera directly. I imagine using my existing Windows 10 laptop with a USB lead going to the mount and another going to the camera. I would like to point and control the mount from my laptop and see the camera's live view on the screen. Perhaps the laptop could do plate solving and point the scope at the required object?

I have started reading about various bits of software that might do some or all of these things but it all sounds rather complicated. I don't mind a reasonable amount of complexity but I would like to start off on the right track.

Can somebody point me in the direction of a relatively straightforward solution? Thanks in advance, Jim

[Budgie1]

Having now used both laptop and the ZWO ASIAir, I would advise using the ASIAir Pro or Plus.

This has everything built into it and only requires attaching to the mount with a 12v power supply. It will connect to your DSLR, & mount, it will suggest targets, take you to them, plate solve and then run an imaging plan on that target. The only thing you need to download is the ASIAir App on a phone or tablet.

With the ASIAir Plus, the WiFi is better than the Pro version, so you can setup and monitor the progress from indoors.

If you want to progress and start guiding at a later date, the ASIAir supports this as well.

The only drawback is that it will only support ZWO astro cameras plus Canon & Nikon DSLRs. I notice from your signature that you have a GPCAM 178C, which it won't support.

[scotty38]

And my counter argument would be that you can do all of this using NINA, PHD2 etc etc and it's free but yes it probably is more complicated I'll accept that. Therefore I would suggest you try the free stuff, see how you get on and if it's not for you then look in to an ASIAIR plus

[nephilim]

I've only used the ASIair Pro & its made AP so much easier for me but as mentioned you are limited to the gear you can use with it.

[ollypenrice]

You don't mention autoguiding but this is a game-changer in astrophotography. Nothing will add so much value as that. If you are guiding then 30 second subs are rather short, I'd have thought, and wont let the signal swamp the noise.

For many years I've used a mixture of handset and camera to find and frame objects but I'm also involved with a fully automated rig which plate solves. With the handset method I align on one star, which is good enough with a permanent polar alignment, and refine the star alignment by centering the star on the camera's image of it.  I then send the scope to the target using the handset's catalogue of objects or, if it's something obscure, using the RA and Dec values shown on the handset. I then take a test sub and frame up the target to my liking, looking at the star patterns around it, and so on, to get an attractive framing. I wouldn't rely on plate solving to frame a target unless it had a lot of empty sky round it and I was aiming to crop anyway.

I realize that the small scope-top computers which control everything are attractive but I also know that, as a remote imaging host, I've replaced rather a lot of them! (To be fair this does not include the Altair which none of my clients has tried.)  My co-conspirator and I elected to use a desktop with lots of USB ports for our remote setup. This, however is an 'observatory solution.'

Olly

Edited January 20, 2022 by ollypenrice
Clarification

[barbulo]

+1 for autoguiding. You “only” need a guidescope and a guiding camera. You might find both for less than 200 quid.

+1 for platesolving. I use APT which I consider easy to learn. There is a free version with almost all the features available. 
 

You can handle all of the above with a Windows based laptop.  

[adyj1]

I started with Astrophotography Tool (APT) which I found easier to get my head round than the other packages. I have since moved on to NINA with all its bells and whistles, but still think APT was a good start. I was able to start with a simple setup and add things like plate-solving and guiding as I got round to it. What I did like about APT was that it would dither without guiding, and so I could save time by not taking darks. Plate solving really helps me get a session up and running quickly after setting up my kit.

The good thing about plate-solving is that it isn't a binary choice. You can continue your manual methods (taking advantage of the better visibility of your exposures on your laptop), and then use plate-solving if/when you get it working. If it stops working, you can revert to your manual methods.

You've got quite a few things to buy before you can get everything up and running, so it will be dependent on budget. Getting the camera talking to your laptop is probably your first job and getting the right cable to connect your laptop to your mount.

 

[Jerry Barnes]

What I did.....

First I added computer controlled "go to" using my laptop, Stellarium and APT using All Sky Platesolver.   All free and really helped to find a target.  Attached are some notes I made which might help a little (not well structured - I was going to write it up neatly but never did).

Then I added a focuser, helped a lot as I never had any success with the Bahtinov mask.

Finally I added a guide camera and scope.  That did guiding and worked with Sharpcap for Polar Allign.

I will look at a RPI solution at some point as it will make me mobile to escape (a little) the light pollution.  That or the ASI.  At the moment though I'm ok with my laptop and you could try out the first step with very little expense.

 

mount control notes.docx astrosetup.docx

[rickwayne]

It sounds as if computer control of your mount and camera is your first objective (though I certainly wouldn't argue with Olly that autoguiding is a big  step up!). You are correct that one USB connection goes to the mount, and another to your camera (a third goes to the guide camera if you add that).

You can go the scope-side attached route (StellarMate, ASIAir, Intel NUC) or use a laptop directly connected. Each has advantages and disadvantages. I am a huge fan of the former route, because I often image in the field on battery power.

If you want to minimize tinkering, a prepackaged appliance like StellarMate or ASIAir is likely to be most satisfying for you. In either case, the hardware and software are already set up, just follow the directions to configure it with your particular equipment and you're laughing. I'm not saying that downloading ASCOM, installing a set of astro software, and getting device drivers and astro software working with it is hard, just that it's extra steps which are unneeded with an appliance. (Likewise for Linux and KStars/Ekos/INDI, if you're using something other than Windows.) You'll need another device (e.g. laptop or phone) to connect to and drive the software (although with the StellarMate you can actually plug an HDMI TV or monitor, mouse, and keyboard right into the appliance and use it like any other computer).

If you would  like to save some money and don't mind assembling things, you can buy a Raspberry Pi 4, a case, a MicroSD card, and the StellarMate OS software for less than US$150. You download the software, burn it to the MicroSD card, plug that into the Pi, and you have essentially the same appliance that they sell for $229.

If you prefer to install software on an existing laptop, you'll have to pick a package and  follow their instructions. Popular ones include APT, NINA, and KStars/Ekos/INDI, there are certainly others too. I would recommend something more integrated, such as NINA, rather than trying to put together a bunch of separate programs.

The least frustrating and simplest way to automatically point your scope involves "plate solving", which is software that can examine an image and  determine its exact stellar coordinates. Again, StellarMate  and ASIAir have this built in, little to no fiddling is required. Once you're told the software your camera's approximate field of view, when you issue a "goto" command it  takes a stab at it by rotating the mount to what it thinks is the right position, shoots and analyzes an image, nudges the mount, and repeats until the target is exactly centered (and I do mean  exactly).

The same software stack can also be used for polar alignment. My rig doesn't even have a polar scope or finder that I can look through. Once I have the tripod legs adjusted to level the mount, I'm all done with the crouching!

 

[ONIKKINEN]

Lots of good tips here already, but ill throw my 2 cents on the computer control subject.

Mini-PC running windows 10 is the best deal. You get all the bonuses of running a windows machine on the field but none of the negatives from laptops (bulk, battery life). Any gear you have is guaranteed to be compatible, not just a select few models (like with the ASIAIR) or a select few pieces of software (raspberry). You can run NINA/APT, sharpcap, firecapture, full version of PHD2, proprietary brand specific capture software. You could even process quickly on the go with DSS/Siril and see what youre getting after some subs have rolled in. 

This is also probably cheaper than the ASIAIR.

Negatives: preferably controlled with a tablet. Phone control possible but annoying. Some tinkering and initial setup required so not for complete tech-allergic people.

[Jim Smith]

Thanks everyone. This is all very helpful. I'm going to take a look at APT first and see how I get on.

[edarter]

Lots of good advice here, and which route you go will depend on how comfortable you are with windows or Linux I guess. What I would say is ditch the handset as quickly as possible! I went from the handset to controlling through NINA with platesolving and it was night night and day! I then very quickly made the jump to guiding. Sub lengths jumping from 1 minute to 4 minutes and only curtailed at that length due to the heat build up on the DSLR sensor. Also, if you decide to go down the laptop route there is no reason to run multiple USB cables to it. I bought a 10m active USB cable and a 4 way USB hub. The hub lives at the mount end and cameras, mount etc plug in to it, then the single USB cable back to the house where I would sit in the warm on my laptop controlling it all. It never missed a beat, but I have since upgraded to an old laptop at the mount which the hub now plugs in to and I remote in to that from my 'proper' laptop in the house. This gives me the advantage that I don't have to leave the patio door slightly open for the USB cable.

[david_taurus83]

Stick with APT if your using a DSLR. NINA is a bit more advanced but I think APT is better suited to DSLR's.

See my tutorial here on how to set up platesolving.

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/334568-setting-up-platesolving-in-astrophotography-tool-apt/

[david_taurus83]

11 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

I wouldn't rely on plate solving to frame a target unless it had a lot of empty sky round it and I was aiming to crop anyway.

 

I can't say I've had much problems with framing and getting precise centering. Have you ever used or seen NINA being used with its framing wizard? It shows you how your target will look. You can move the FOV around and change the rotation and the corresponding coords will change based on where you position it. Once your happy with it you can set those coords as your intended target. If your mount is good enough, it will centre it to within a few pixels.

 

[Jim Smith]

My Lynx Astro FTDI EQDIR USB Adapter for Sky-Watcher Mounts cable arrived along with a USB splitter cable. (My laptop has only one USB port). 

I installed ASCOM, EQMOD and APT on my laptop and connected my camera and mount...and...it worked first time! I slewed the mount around, turned tracking on and off and took a series of images of a tree all controlled from my laptop. OK, I know that there is plenty more to sort out once I get dark, clear skies but that's a great first step. Thank you everyone!

One question...I suppose I still need to do some sort of star alignment. Now I don't have the handset connected how do I do that? Is it done in EQMOD?

 

 

[barbulo]

If you are going to plate solve, there is no need to do the star alignment. 

[Jim Smith]

2 minutes ago, barbulo said:

If you are going to plate solve, there is no need to do the star alignment. 

I might save plate solving for "phase 2". For now I suppose I will need to do some sort of star alignment at least once.

[adyj1]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

took a series of images of a tree

Excellent! Hopefully you didn't have tracking turned on!

 

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

One question...I suppose I still need to do some sort of star alignment. Now I don't have the handset connected how do I do that? Is it done in EQMOD?

I'm sure this isn't the only way, and there may be easier ones, but here is a simple description of the process I used;

- In APT go to the 'gear' tab.

- select a star from the 'objects' browser to put the the RA and DEC co-ordinates into the 'Goto RA' and 'Goto DEC' fields and hit 'goto'.

- When it stops slewing, turn on live view and make adjustments with the N/S/E/W buttons until the star is centered (you can turn on the crosshairs in live view).

- When it is centred, make sure the 'Goto RA' and 'Goto DEC' values are still the ones you entered for that star, and press 'sync'. 

The actual RA and DEC values on the gear tab should change to the new values, as should the RA and DEC values in the EQMOD screen. Et voila - aligned.  When slewing to another target, if the slew is slightly off, just repeat the process.

In theory, after a few slews they should get more accurate, but that isn't that important as you'll no doubt want to make slight adjustments.

Ady

Edited January 21, 2022 by adyj1
(forgot object browser!)

[Jim Smith]

1 hour ago, adyj1 said:

but here is a simple description of the process I used

I will give it a try. Thanks.

[The Lazy Astronomer]

18 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

I might save plate solving for "phase 2". For now I suppose I will need to do some sort of star alignment at least once.

Believe it or not, plate solving is much easier than messing around with star alignment. I'd recommend you look into it for phase 1.