Evidence suggesting Herodotus and Prinz are lunar ‘super volcano craters’ and not ‘impact’ craters.

[Drifter]

Here’s a thought … If you cast an eye over this photo …

…. several rilles emerge from the eye of small impact disturbances around the periphery of Prinz and Herodotus craters. If you are of the school of thought rille channels are either created by lava or water … maybe this is suggesting that both Herodotus and Prinz are ancient supervolcano craters rather than impacts?

Imagine the many labyrinthine periphery chambers of lava tubes and gas caverns created under pressure trying to reach the surface and break through the hardened lunar crust around the main vent of a supervolcano …. and you can see why some of these meteor impacts around both H and P have triggered the creation of these small rilles puncturing leakage from these chambers.

Note Vera, Ivan, Aristarchus B and Herodotus B impacts triggering rille production in the image above. 
Vera and Ivan shown in close-up below:

Considering H and P filled with smoothed lava-lake crusts around the time of their demise - maybe the rilles around the periphery formed later when ash/pummice dust ejecta had long since ceased? …. because rille channels are mostly clear of dust, ash and molten material. It’s worth noting there is never much trace of built-up of lumpy lava deposits along the edges of any rilles in our Solar System … nor at the very end of these channels where most cooling has occured often miles from the ‘source’. I’ll leave members who are drawn more to lava creating rilles - to draw their own conclusions on that serious ‘anomaly’.

 

We see this pattern of events on most major bodies in our Solar System that has a history of volcanism … 

I like the idea of a network of subsurface labyrinths around the main emission vent of these giant volcanoes. Some of these enclosed chambers must eventually fill with liquid condensates as volcanoes die - water being a bi-product of the liquefaction of rock that allows lava to flow - here it eventually gets trapped in these enclosed chambers largely immune from sublimation. Some subterranean reservoirs on Earth get utilised by bottled water industries as a healthy tonic! Let’s hope the Moon has drinkable varieties to sustain longterm Moon Base projects.
[Hoping they make the first permanent Moon base near the incredibly interesting Schroter's Valley v. soon]

 

We now know there is a building concensus that volcanism on the Moon(and hence a very active magnetic core flux) was evident around the time dinosaurs roamed the Earth:

https://earthsky.org/space/moon-saw-volcanic-eruptions-in-geologically-recent-times/

This new timeline for lunar history suggests this magnetic flux was strong enough to create a thick protective atmosphere for much longer than first imagined - thus reducing the effects of extreme sublimation of liquids and gases generated by v. lively volcanism.
Interesting to conclude our Moon might have still had a significant atmosphere as little as only 18 million years ago … considering the thin atmosphere we see today during the transition extremes of v. long lunar day/night  … who is to say there might not have been ample time for water ooze erosion? … maybe even weather systems on the Moon at some point in it’s history? An exciting prospect that might explain some particulate weathering on it’s surface and the formation of ‘dunes’ the lunar buggy bounced over during recent explorations of the surface.

I realise it is a ‘big ask’ to get members to consider the outrageous idea that the huge Aristarcus meteor impact fractured multiple chambers of condensate for kilometres around the Herodotus ‘volcano’ - then a much smaller impact Herodotus B triggered a mammoth ooze event creating the erosion of Schroter’s Valley(SV). Yes, it’s an enormous feature that probably needs millions of years of erosion - but it’s displacing light dusty pumice, ash and other ejecta … not cutting through rock like the Colorado River had to do to form the Grand Canyon  … so no point using that as a timeline comparison - conditions on the Moon have been very different to that …. and changing rapidly as new discoveries are made.

I understand why most astronomers seem to believe these rilles are only formed by lava … not water - but lets not get bogged down by that argument here … first things first …. it is immaterial to the strong evidence that many rilles tend to surround features that are almost certainly ‘volcanic’ in origin - or come from impact disturbance around areas that were very volcanic at one time.

Hence the main point of this post … surely the need for astronomers to step up to the plate with confidence and relabel Herodotus and Prinz as “long dead volcano craters” and not “impacts”?

Edited January 7, 2022 by Drifter

[Whirlwind]

Sorry, but I think we would have heard about it before.  Astrogeologists have been studying the moon for decades.  There are volcanic features but they are more akin to low explosive type of eruptions that we get on earth after factoring in the lower gravity (something akin to recent Iceland volcanoes).    

However an immediate problem does show itself in the Prinz crater.  If we at least speculate that very explosive eruptions (i.e. a supervolcano) can exist [which would be weird anyway because there is nothing between the non-explosive to super explosive which you should expect] then we do know that:-

A volcanic crater occurs when the magma chamber under the volcano empties and the overlying rock is no longer supported and hence then collapses to fill the void.  As such you this only occurs at the end of an eruption.  The rilles (likely being old collapsed lava tubes (definitely not water formed!) would be formed whilst the the volcanic chamber is emptying.  Hence the crater should be younger than the rilles.  However the rilles are emplaced on the old flood lava that partially submerges the Prinz crater.  As such the rilles must be younger than the crater.  This rules out that the rilles arise due to Prinz being a 'supervolcano'.

There is likely a lot of other evidence in terms of heights etc, but generally the advice is that just because two events are co-located doesn't mean they are in any way linked.

[Drifter]

I used the term ‘super volcano’ to describe a large area eruption crater filled with a lava lake …. maybe I used the wrong term here? … I avoided calling them calderas because I didn’t feel these H+P features showed evidence of a ‘collapse’ in the terrain.
Interesting you mentioned these as low gravity/low explosive events very different to something like Olympus Mons …. this fits in very nicely to what I was thinking and the observation here … large very old volcanoes with low lip edges simmering away gently before eventually dying and the lips weathering slightly.

I agree with your summary the rilles formed much later … but find it hard to believe these rilles are collapsed lava tubes? …. because what are the chances that nearly every rille in the Solar System collapsed evenly along it’s whole length to reveal an uninterrupted smooth channel? 
(Just want to clarify - I wasn’t stating in my OP that lava tubes were formed by water …. just the idea water condensate would collect in old cooling subsurface chambers created by trapped gas and lava - as these giant eruptions faded away)

I feel it ties in quite neatly that meteor impacts surrounding these large flattish craters could happily puncture these pressurised chambers and create ‘ooze’ events … like we see in the Yellowstone Park caldera(not inferring Old Faithful was triggered by a meteor impact btw!). It’s likely these ‘ooze’ events could sustained erosion from substantial condensate production over millions of years …. creating either surface erosion … or possibly the cutting of subsurface channels(resistant to sublimation) that could dissolve the underlying ejecta and leave a smooth collapsed river-like feature with an evaporation point at the end.
Nearly all rilles give the inescapable nagging impression of being created by a very mobile liquid that has evaporated at the end over a considerable distance. Lava rarely ever creates that effect …. disappearing completely without trace?!🤔

As recent research has shown lunar volcanism mechanisms and molten core activity lasting much longer than initially thought … we finally have an exciting scenario (along with lunar tremor data) for establishing the Moon once had a substantial atmosphere and at least agreeable conditions for ‘ooze’ erosion.

It’s a compelling notion which could really open up exciting new avenues of research of our nearest neighbour … and widen options on where we can establish Moon Bases in future …. We won’t be tied to the ice deposits in lakes around the Poles … but possibly  we could tap into the fresh mini ooze channel in Schroter's Valley instead? - if the ‘source’ is still delivering?😁👍

If it’s true rille formation around meteor impacts shows water and not lava sources close to the surface near ancient eruptions … this discovery could seriously cut down on the amount of drilling equipment we would need to cart to the Moon to sustain research colonies there.

It remains to be seen what levels of purification will be required for the water extracted from these subsurface reservoirs.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Drifter

[Drifter]

I just want to drop a couple more indicators that suggest this labyrinthine view of the upper crust of the Moon might be true …where surface volcanism has probably created vast tracts where gas and lava under pressure have cut chambers that have cooled later and ‘honeycombed’ the subsurface.

From this synopsis of the Moon (  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon  ) Under the section Surface Geology:

“The discovery of fault scarp cliffs suggest that the Moon has shrunk by about 90 metres (309ft) within the past billion years. Similar shrinkage features exist on  Mercury. Mare Frigoris, a basin near the north pole long assumed to be geologically dead, has cracked and shifted. Since the Moon doesn’t have tectonic plates, it’s tectonic activity is slow and cracks develop as it loses heat”
Meteor impacts over the years fracturing chambers full of condensate will also create this shrinkage as tidal locking bakes the surface layers driving water vapour sublimation out through porous deposits and tenuous atmosphere as it shimmers refractions evaporating into Space.

Other views why it is shrinking: https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/the-moon-is-shrinking

Worth adding is that these shrinkage marks are relatively recent tying in with data suggesting volcanism faded recently  and therefore rille formation followed later as impacts and heave triggered ooze events. Another reason why most rille channels in the Solar System are free of dust and volcanic(molten lava) debris.

Looking at the info on the history of the lunar iron core … I can imagine as the core of the Moon cooled, similar honeycombed chambers would be created much deeper below the surface in the molten iron layers … also explaining why the Moon has a much lower density than the Earth … even though it shares a very similar isotopic signature that suggests both bodies were created at the same time birthed from star matter and evolved along very similar paths ‘married’ together along similar celestial orbits that influenced their geological similarities.

A Honeycomb Moon Theory also ties in nicely with the recording of vibration and resonance …. the sonic ringing event that the Moon makes when it is struck by large impactors or explosions detonated on it’s surface.

https://sagame.damnxd.org/does-moon-sound-like-bell/

Not hollow moon theory … just more logical honeycombed moon theory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Drifter]

If people are concerned about the possible amounts of water that were likely generated on our Moon to create such rilles this article should reassure them that water generated by volcanism is not only sufficient in lunar scenarios but is sufficient to completely dispel the rather dodgy notion Earth’s water arrived from the asteroid belt! 🤔

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/geo/chapter/reading-volcanic-gases-pyroclastic-flow-and-tephra/

As you notice in the chart … water vapour is the most abundant gas created by this liquifying volcanic process. 

[Sublimation doesn’t happen much to our planet … so however much the ice caps melt … my advice in the long term is … move to/ and build on higher ground! …😄 ]