Mount options for a 102 Frac

[RobertI]

9 minutes ago, Stardaze said:

I was thinking that the weight was on the limit for a scope tech at 4.5kg?

Interesting as this is where I have two thoughts. They are excellent value for money and seem to show the ALT/AZ's as being over-priced by comparison, especially the sky tee. They must be the best value mount for a medium-sized scope. But it's really interesting in that you like an EQ mount for grab and go, which contradicts my reasoning. When I did have an EQ mount (early days granted) I'd always get caught up in aligning and trying to have it working as it should. I guess you can point and shoot, to a point.

They seem a bit over-priced to me these days John? The fact that it will need stripping and re-greasing for a £300 mount, kinda puts me off a little.  I'm thinking that I'd like something that doesn't need any faffing with. I'll probably save a little initially with some stainless legs but some wooden versions later on will inevitably happen I think. AZ75 does look worth the extra is my thoughts. 

FWIW I have never bothered to regrease mine - I think if you use the slo mo’s a lot like me, then it’s not a problem, but if you do a lot of pushing around, then you might benefit from a regrease, but it’s not mandatory by any means. 

[badhex]

16 minutes ago, Stardaze said:

I was thinking that the weight was on the limit for a scope tech at 4.5kg?

Interesting as this is where I have two thoughts. They are excellent value for money and seem to show the ALT/AZ's as being over-priced by comparison, especially the sky tee. They must be the best value mount for a medium-sized scope. But it's really interesting in that you like an EQ mount for grab and go, which contradicts my reasoning. When I did have an EQ mount (early days granted) I'd always get caught up in aligning and trying to have it working as it should. I guess you can point and shoot, to a point.

They seem a bit over-priced to me these days John? The fact that it will need stripping and re-greasing for a £300 mount, kinda puts me off a little.  I'm thinking that I'd like something that doesn't need any faffing with. I'll probably save a little initially with some stainless legs but some wooden versions later on will inevitably happen I think. AZ75 does look worth the extra is my thoughts. 

Not that I wish to resurrect a long running discussion, but one thing to bear in mind is that the AZ75 does not have slowmo controls if that something you want. Otherwise it will obviously be a much better made mount than the Skytee. (I only own a Skytee, FYI). 

From general consensus of the threads I read running up to the recent purchase of my skytee, essentially you can bring it up to the level of "sturdy, reasonably inexpensive dual alt-az mount" which performs well, with a small amount of work. As said the purchase of some decent grease and a few hours TLC may be necessary, depending on how well it performs out of the box. It will never be Rowan standard of excellence though 🙂

Edited December 20, 2021 by badhex

[Stu]

1 minute ago, badhex said:

Not that I wish to resurrect a long running discussion

Please NO! 🤪🤪🤣🤣

[badhex]

2 minutes ago, Stu said:

Please NO! 🤪🤪🤣🤣

[ @badhex is backing slowly away from the thread] 

[johninderby]

If you insist in regreasing the Skytee I’m sure Jeremy can suggest something. 😁😁😁

[Franklin]

Find a used GP/SP for under £200. Never need stripping and regreasing, smoothest slo-mo's, RA drive upgradable and easily still grab n go. Set up is not an issue, having set your latitude just point it roughly North. I've had SP/GP EQ mounts for visual over all these years and have never looked through a polarscope in my life. One point to bear in mind if going down the alt-az route, is that at some point you will want to upgrade your eyepiece collection to super wide fields and that can be expensive. EQ and Alt-az observing requires different observing techniques. With an alt-az you allow the object to drift across the field whilst observing, hence the need for extra wide field eyepieces but with an EQ, once centered, the object stays put in the center. High powers and small fov is of no issue with an EQ, nightmare with an Alt-az. (IMO-YMMV)

[Mr Spock]

55 minutes ago, Stardaze said:

Interesting as this is where I have two thoughts. They are excellent value for money and seem to show the ALT/AZ's as being over-priced by comparison, especially the sky tee. They must be the best value mount for a medium-sized scope. But it's really interesting in that you like an EQ mount for grab and go, which contradicts my reasoning. When I did have an EQ mount (early days granted) I'd always get caught up in aligning and trying to have it working as it should. I guess you can point and shoot, to a point.

I just stick it on the patio. Takes seconds and the alignment doesn't have to be exact. Once you have initially set the mount up you can just point north in the direction of Polaris. I don't bother because my patio is reasonable square with north. 
With this combination I can be observing in less time it takes to get my eyepieces out of the case!
If I'm in a rush I don't even bother with the spreader  It works just fine without.

53 minutes ago, Stardaze said:

PS. What diagonal did you plumb for with yours?

I'm now using a Revelation 2" dielectric. The 1.25" shown in the pic created reflections inside the SLV eyepieces (I wonder if this is where they get that reputation from) when looking at the moon. Plus of course I can stick my 42mm LVW in for 4.24° 

[Stardaze]

46 minutes ago, Franklin said:

Find a used GP/SP for under £200. Never need stripping and regreasing, smoothest slo-mo's, RA drive upgradable and easily still grab n go. Set up is not an issue, having set your latitude just point it roughly North. I've had SP/GP EQ mounts for visual over all these years and have never looked through a polarscope in my life. One point to bear in mind if going down the alt-az route, is that at some point you will want to upgrade your eyepiece collection to super wide fields and that can be expensive. EQ and Alt-az observing requires different observing techniques. With an alt-az you allow the object to drift across the field whilst observing, hence the need for extra wide field eyepieces but with an EQ, once centered, the object stays put in the center. High powers and small fov is of no issue with an EQ, nightmare with an Alt-az. (IMO-YMMV)

It is a good point regarding higher mags. At the moment, my EP's are 100 deg WA from 10mm down, and XW's in 5 & 7 - so not too narrow. Forgive me for being slow, what do you mean by GP/SP?

Edited December 20, 2021 by Stardaze

[Franklin]

Just now, Stardaze said:

what do you mean by GP/SP?

Vixen Super Polaris and Great Polaris EQ mounts. Vixen don't make them anymore so only secondhand, but they are the real deal. SW EQ5 and others are China clones of the Vixen GP.

[John]

I've owned several equatorial mounts over the years including the excellent Vixen SP, GP and GP DX mounts. As purely a visual observer though, I have now moved wholesale to alt-azimuth mounts, with and without slow motion controls (two with and two without currently) for my refractors and my newtonians.

That's just my preference though, of course. You can really only find out what you prefer by tying things out I'm afraid. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by John

[Stardaze]

31 minutes ago, John said:

I've owned several equatorial mounts over the years including the excellent Vixen SP, GP and GP DX mounts. As purely a visual observer though, I have now moved wholesale to alt-azimuth mounts, with and without slow motion controls (two with and two without currently) for my refractors and my newtonians.

That's just my preference though, of course. You can really only find out what you prefer by tying things out I'm afraid. 

 

 

 

 

Thanks John. Be interested to know specifically what do you prefer with alt/az mounts? 

[dweller25]

Hello @Stardaze

If you plan to do a lot of high power observing then a motor driven Equatorial mount makes for a very relaxed viewing session.

As already said the Vixen GP or the Chinese clone Skywatcher EQ5 would make a good choice for the 4” Refractor.

If you do mostly low power work, then an alt-az setup with wide angle eyepieces would work very well.

[John]

1 hour ago, Stardaze said:

Thanks John. Be interested to know specifically what do you prefer with alt/az mounts? 

For me it is the "dump it down and observe" nature of the alt-azimuth, the positioning of the scope tube and eyepiece on the mount and the movement of the scope around the sky that has kept me coming back to them. I've owned probably a dozen or so different equatorials over the years from Meade, TAL, Skywatcher, Celestron and Vixen (I've been at this a long time ) but each time I found myself preferring the alt-azimuth approach.

I'm not at all anti-equatorial mount though, I just find that I prefer alt azimuth. This was a lovely Vixen GP that I had last year for a while and very elegant it looks too:

It worked just as a good equatorial mount should, but, again, I found that I just preferred using my alt-azimuth mounts, so I let the Vixen go to a new home rather than have it gather dust and take up space.

I still have the nice wooden tripod but it now has my Skytee II on it.

These are just my preferences though. I'm sure others will have different ideas of what suits them 

Incidently, I do a lot of high power observing, often using 250x - 400x.

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by John

[Dave1]

One mount that I failed to mention yesterday, if slow motion controls are important to you, is the Losmandy AZ8 Losmandy AZ8 Alt Az Heavy Duty Mount - Rother Valley Optics Ltd

Edited December 20, 2021 by Dave1

[Stardaze]

17 minutes ago, Dave1 said:

One mount that I failed to mention yesterday, if slow motion controls are important to you, is the Losmandy AZ8 Losmandy AZ8 Alt Az Heavy Duty Mount - Rother Valley Optics Ltd

Ah yes Dave, probably a bit rich for me that one 😆

[Stu]

2 hours ago, dweller25 said:

Hello @Stardaze

If you plan to do a lot of high power observing then a motor driven Equatorial mount makes for a very relaxed viewing session.

As already said the Vixen GP or the Chinese clone Skywatcher EQ5 would make a good choice for the 4” Refractor.

If you do mostly low power work, then an alt-az setup with wide angle eyepieces would work very well.

I agree with this and although I enjoy both Alt Az and EQ mounts I tend to use them for different purposes.

If I’m star hopping or even just looking at a lot of different targets in different areas of the sky, I prefer a manual or push to Alt Az mount. They are very easy to setup and use, either with or without slo motion controls. With slow motion controls you are still adjusting an Alt Az in two directions to keep targets centred so it does take a little concentration. At low and mid powers it’s a non issue, and even a higher power it’s quite possible to track whether with or without slo motion controls. If without slo mos, a lot depends on the balance of the scope and quality of the mount as to how smooth the motions are. One benefit of slo mos is that the mount maintains position when changing eyepieces and is generally less susceptible to balance changes.

I prefer EQ mounts when I’m doing planetary, lunar or solar observing, and generally staying on one or two targets for the session. An EQ mount is trivially easy to setup for visual; no need for polar alignment, just plonk it down level and north, with your latitude set correctly and it will track accurately enough for visual. I’ve often found myself spending the day popping in and out to observe the sun, with the mount happily tracking away so the target is always in the fov when I go back to it,  then swinging the mount back to the East to catch the rising Moon and observing that during the evening. With dual axis tracking, no Goto alignment is needed and it just quietly tracks away. I sold a Vixen GP which I probably shouldn’t have done 🤪, and typically have now bought a GP-DX with Skysensor 2000PC to replace it!

My brain does not function well in RA/Dec though, so I find star hopping almost impossible with an EQ, and prefer to have Goto on it if looking for lots of different targets; as said at the beginning, I find star hopping and moving the scope around the sky a lot easier with Alt Az, whilst staying on or near the ecliptic for a whole session makes EQs very easy.

Horses for courses as always, and you need to work out what works best for you

[Pixies]

Berlebach Castor II? There was one on AB&S recently, but it's gone now.

Haven't used one, but it looks the thing. No slo-mo though.

[Stu]

To specifically answer the question about dual mount vs single mount types…… I’ve generally always had dual mount Giro Style mounts and have really enjoyed them, often putting a widefield scope one side and a larger aperture/higher power option the other. Of course you can use them just with a single saddle on one side and counterweight the other and they work very well.

I’ve currently got a Scopetech Zero and that handles my FC100DC or Genesis very nicely, though your 102mm may be a little heavy for it, not sure. A lot depends on the tripod being used as that affects stability a lot.

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

I use the AZ5. It does the job for those quick sessions.

When the weather looks promising and I'm hoping for at least a couple of hours, then the Celestron AVX comes out. Bought used last year for £600.

There's probably better options out there, however I'd already owned the AZ5 a couple of years and the AVX was the cheapest sturdy goto and tracking mount I could afford.

[jetstream]

15 hours ago, John said:

Currently I use

Wheres the T Rex? I want one but cant have one

[John]

4 minutes ago, jetstream said:

Wheres the T Rex? I want one but cant have one

Unfortunately out of production since the creator and sole maker of the mount passed away in October 2016. It is a superb mount, mostly used with my 130mm F/9.2 triplet refractor but occasionally with others.

 

 

[vineyard]

I have been v happy w my old Vixen SP mount, which I modded with motors.  Holds a 4" frac (long SP102M) with ease, can be used in alt-az or EQ configuration.  The motors really make the difference for relaxed viewing (especially high power for moon & planets) - whisper quiet and with no need to touch the setup as it tracks, there's no wobble and you can just concentrate on the viewing.  Perfect for visual.  Have had lovely sessions on the Moon and Mars in particular, going up to 333x on the 102M w/o any problems.  The only limitation is that there is no go-to so that bit of big sky navigation you have to do yourself.

[Stardaze]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

I agree with this and although I enjoy both Alt Az and EQ mounts I tend to use them for different purposes.

If I’m star hopping or even just looking at a lot of different targets in different areas of the sky, I prefer a manual or push to Alt Az mount. They are very easy to setup and use, either with or without slo motion controls. With slow motion controls you are still adjusting an Alt Az in two directions to keep targets centred so it does take a little concentration. At low and mid powers it’s a non issue, and even a higher power it’s quite possible to track whether with or without slo motion controls. If without slo mos, a lot depends on the balance of the scope and quality of the mount as to how smooth the motions are. One benefit of slo mos is that the mount maintains position when changing eyepieces and is generally less susceptible to balance changes.

I prefer EQ mounts when I’m doing planetary, lunar or solar observing, and generally staying on one or two targets for the session. An EQ mount is trivially easy to setup for visual; no need for polar alignment, just plonk it down level and north, with your latitude set correctly and it will track accurately enough for visual. I’ve often found myself spending the day popping in and out to observe the sun, with the mount happily tracking away so the target is always in the fov when I go back to it,  then swinging the mount back to the East to catch the rising Moon and observing that during the evening. With dual axis tracking, no Goto alignment is needed and it just quietly tracks away. I sold a Vixen GP which I probably shouldn’t have done 🤪, and typically have now bought a GP-DX with Skysensor 2000PC to replace it!

My brain does not function well in RA/Dec though, so I find star hopping almost impossible with an EQ, and prefer to have Goto on it if looking for lots of different targets; as said at the beginning, I find star hopping and moving the scope around the sky a lot easier with Alt Az, whilst staying on or near the ecliptic for a whole session makes EQs very easy.

Horses for courses as always, and you need to work out what works best for you

That's a great post @Stu - thanks! From past experience, I agree with the tracking for lunar and planetary, that's where EQ mounts do help for visual. I'll have a ponder on that. The EQ5 is so cheap that it wouldn't break the bank to start there if I wanted to anyway. I have plenty of time to digest it all as I'm going to purchase into next year now anyway. 

[RobertI]

Another benefit of EQ mounts is that they are usable in the ‘dob hole’ - the area around the zenith where the seeing tends to be the best, altaz mounts cannot do this. Then again observing at the zenith with a refractor is not always a lot of fun anyway. 

[Deadlake]

7 hours ago, Stardaze said:

I was thinking that the weight was on the limit for a scope tech at 4.5k

Scopetech Zero

Weight                  ->  1.7 kg
Payload capacity ->  7 kg