What mini pc / control centre specs should I be looking for as a minimum?

[Stuart1971]

21 minutes ago, noah4x4 said:

If not intending to pursue EEVA (live stacking etc), then why post the question in an EEVA equipment forum?

I have two Intel seventh generation i5 NUCSs purchased within the last 18 months and it is already evident that they won't run Windows 11, so how is the timing of purchase any guarantee of future proofing? It is also still possible to buy new low specification Celeron specification PCs.  My post deliberately embraced the full gamut of imaging from single exposures (1) to the opposite extreme of high resolution, live stacking at 4K UHD (6). I clearly stated that (1) requires minimal computing and (6) significant, with escalating demand on CPU and RAM in between. The OP needs to determine where he fits within that range.  But my response was because I was concerned that the common thrust of this thread was that "almost any PC will do", which isn't helpful to the unwary.  Equipment specifications are also changing fast after many years of being stuck in the low resolution CCD paradigm. 

How long before 10 megapixel + astro cameras become routine? Today, you can't buy a new DSLR with anything less than 24 megapixel. Such demand drives sensor availability within the astro-camera market.  Count how many different CMOS cameras have been launched by ZWO in the last four years, each driven by obsolescence of their previous 'wonder sensor'. Note how CCD has become incredibly expensive, and how CMOS dominates new astro camera purchases.  4K UHD is becoming the de facto standard for TVs and prices of large screen 4K panels have crashed from £5,000 to under £500 in no time at all. My Viewsonic 30" 4K UHD monitor was merely £250.   What is the point of buying a camera like a ZWO ASI294 or ASI533 or  Atik Horizon each exceeding 4K UHD and then limiting its display to mere 1080p HD? The technology of commonly purchased camera sensors is already outstripping current display and computer convention common in astronomy circles.

Frankly, I wasted nearly £1,500 on two (i5) mini-computers that worked fine for traditional AP on a 1080p monitor, but proved hopeless for anything more intensive.  I am now on my third NUC, an eight generation i7 with 16 Gb RAM (hence have spent over £2,000 in total on mini-computers) and it works fine for (6), but  that is perhaps still not ensuring future proofing. For example, SharpCap 4.0 Pro has just added 'sequencing' functionality.  Hence, features previously only seen in expensive software like Maxim DL are  available in £12 per annum licence software.  I already know people that are now not just adding 'darks and flats on the fly', they are plate-solving and auto-focussing between each live stacked frame.  Hence, demands on CPU and RAM are soaring, unless one remains stuck in a current less challenging paradigm.

The reason I wasted so much money was because people keep reinforcing the stereotype that virtually "any PC will do."  My point is that it is vital to think holistically  and much depends NOT upon what you plan to do today, but what you MIGHT  be doing next year. 

 

 

None of what you have mentioned here, needs anything more than the i5 PC that you have, I do all that and more on a mini i5 intel NUC that cost £135 second hand, and with a bigger 500gb SSD and 16gb RAM I bought extra it was still under £200 and it’s more than good enough to run a full imaging set up two scopes, the latest QHY268c camera guiding and plate solving all runs flawlessly with all the latest software, I even to the stacking on it with Astro Pixel Processor, no need for i7 or anything like that at all, it’s just pointless…..👍🏼

[malc-c]

 

31 minutes ago, noah4x4 said:

If not intending to pursue EEVA (live stacking etc), then why post the question in an EEVA equipment forum?

Can't answer that, but with a lot of sections to choose from maybe it was a simple mistake ?

Quote

I have two Intel seventh generation i5 NUCSs purchased within the last 18 months and it is already evident that they won't run Windows 11, so how is the timing of purchase any guarantee of future proofing? It is also still possible to buy new low specification Celeron specification PCs.  My post deliberately embraced the full gamut of imaging from single exposures (1) to the opposite extreme of high resolution, live stacking at 4K UHD (6). I clearly stated that (1) requires minimal computing and (6) significant, with escalating demand on CPU and RAM in between. The OP needs to determine where he fits within that range.  But my response was because I was concerned that the common thrust of this thread was that "almost any PC will do", which isn't helpful to the unwary.  Equipment specifications are also changing fast after many years of being stuck in the low resolution CCD paradigm. 

Thing is none of us can predict what upgrade path the OP would take.  Whilst I can understand your frustration, and intent to advise the OP on the pitfalls of lower spec machines, we were responding to his request for suggestions based on the current needs and equipment which was

On 16/12/2021 at 12:56, dazzystar said:

Hi All,

Going to be using NINA, Sharpcap on my outdoor rig (when I buy it) which will consist initially of an EQ3 Pro, Startravel 102 scope and an ASI178MC camera. I therefore need a mini pc that can be battery powered which everything can be connected to so I can control it via my main PC over Windows RDP. What would be there minimum specs I should be considering based on all the heavy processing image work would be done by my main PC in the house?

Cheers

Daz

None of that equipment requires a threadripper running on a £700 mother board with a £1000 GPU.  Granted if the OP has the money, then purchasing such a beast of a machine would be a way of future proofing his needs, should he choose to replace the mount and scope with something that warrants the use of 4K or 8K UHD cameras and be able to live stack the huge amount of data such cameras produce.  But 

Quote

The reason I wasted so much money was because people keep reinforcing the stereotype that virtually "any PC will do."  My point is that it is vital to think holistically  and much depends NOT upon what you plan to do today, but what you MIGHT  be doing next year. 

This is a very valid point.   But how do we know just where we will be in the hobby in 2, or 5 or even 10 years time.  My equipment hasn't changed much since I built the observatory 10 years ago.  My interest  comes and goes depending on other things in my life.  But I know a good friend who had pretty much the same level of equipment as me when I first got to know him, but now his rig (and his approach to astronomy) is far more serious, with upwards of £10K of scope and cameras sitting on an EQ8 mount and has had the privilege of many of his images adorning Astronomy Now and other magazines .  He's just upgraded his observatory PC to a NUC last year mainly as his old trusty Dell laptop was showing is age, but he got one that suits his current needs and most people can't predict what technology will be available in 5 years time, and if there is some PC currently available that will be future proof enough.   I mean you mention windows 11.  Microsoft told us that Windows 10 was going to be the last ever OS it would develop, so you would think buying hardware in the past 12 - 18 months would be futureproofing for your needs... only to find, as you did, that the new OS won't run on it (at least not without some hacking of the install routine, but that's a different story).

One other thing to consider is budget.  Looking at the OP's equipment I get the impression that his budget for a PC is proportional and inline with the amount he spent on his mount and scope.  Maybe this is why people recommended a basic no frills "any current pc" will do ? 

 

[Bluemoonjim]

wow!

[SimM]

I can recommend the Beelink brand that has been sold by FLO, although specs change quickly, so J4125 generation CPUs are now N5095 for increased performance for a bit less expense. Mine is a Beelink U59 Generation with N5095 CPU, dual channel 16GB DDR4 RAM and 512GB of SATA storage with 5x USB 3 output. It's ironic that these little Mini PC can now support 3x 4K simultaneous video outputs, but for Astro use they are used "headless" after the initial setup e.g. no keyboard, mouse or monitor required. One reviewer had setup and reviewed the same Mini PC for Astro use and considered the performance more than adequate for data acquisition. I have rotated through two of the Mini PCs because the first one had 8GB of RAM and only one stick of RAM but was advertised as dual channel. The replacement had RAM and SATA storage both doubled and did work dual channel. In the space of one week the Windows 10 Pro (capable of Windows 11) has now become Windows 11 Pro preinstalled. I didn't have any issues with Windows 11 Pro and ASCOM 6.6 runs just fine. I did grab the latest Virtual Com Port (VCP) drivers from the chip manufacturers (FTDI and Prolific's websites) just to be sure.  

Power for the Mini PC comes from a 12V wall socket. They are rated at 36W but will need to supply only about 15-18W and typically run with much less than this. I want the CPU to complete tasks as quickly as possible and then do absolutely nothing until called upon to repeat the process. I did benchmark the two Mini PC and that's exactly what they do. The dual ranked one was quite a bit quicker and the advantages of the newer CPU would be wasted without two sticks of RAM. It seems that the manufacturer only supplies one module now rather than two 4GB ones with typically 8GB RAM. 512GB of SATA storage is plenty and for many uses even 128GB or 256GB would be adequate, but the Beelink can also take a further 2.5" SATA drive (or equivalent) so storage is practically unlimited. Although a Mini PC can be used for a replacement for a Laptop, I wanted to use it as a replacement for a USB hub and have it placed on the OTA rig. I have two PSU, one for the Mount and Dew Heater/Controller and one PSU for the Rig which includes the Mini PC. Some Mini PC come with a 19V PSU that are known to work at 12V, but his one has a 12V PSU, so can be operated without the supplied PSU wall wart supply for fewer leads if your PSU can provide sufficient power. The 12V socket is 5.5 x 2.5mm so the usual 5.5 x 2.1mm plugs may not fit.

Performance of a Mini PC is surprisingly good. I did start off with a Laptop running Windows 10 Home and Chrome Remote Desktop but this required a table, plastic crate and Laptop with trailing leads across to the Mount and OTA. I have since used an old  Windows 7 Pro license to "upgrade" the Laptop to Windows 11 Pro before getting the Mini PC. The Mini PC is mounted on the OTA rig and directly provides USB to the equipment, so the table and plastic crate and trailing leads are no longer a prerequisite. The quote TDP for the processor include the graphics processor so that actual use for Astro use is a fraction of the available power rating and the CPU drops back to minimise power usage when it's not required - if it's not needed then it's not used.

At the moment I'm trying to provide a vented enclosure that will also provide protection from Dew and trying to get the Mini PC to automatically power up using a BIOS setting because I may not have access to the power button (anyone get this to work)? I'm also using the Microsoft Remote Desktop which I originally made work without a Windows Pro license. With Windows Pro it just works and I can access it from "inside" on an iMac, or "outside" from a Laptop or iPad. Running with an iMac, using the Microsoft RDP Application Client is particularly interesting and in test I could run a 4K YouTube Video with sound on the Mini PC with the display/sound on the iMac flawlessly with graphics acceleration provided by the iMac and the WiFi providing sufficient bandwidth. I also get to set a bigger resolution on the iMac than my previously attached PC Monitor. For Astro use the requirements are far less demanding, but I would caution about the misconception that "any old" Laptop will do.

Simon

Edited February 8, 2022 by SimM