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What mini pc / control centre specs should I be looking for as a minimum?


dazzystar

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Hi All,

Going to be using NINA, Sharpcap on my outdoor rig (when I buy it) which will consist initially of an EQ3 Pro, Startravel 102 scope and an ASI178MC camera. I therefore need a mini pc that can be battery powered which everything can be connected to so I can control it via my main PC over Windows RDP. What would be there minimum specs I should be considering based on all the heavy processing image work would be done by my main PC in the house?

Cheers

Daz

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I got a Beelink back in May and it's absolutely brilliant. FLO have recently started selling them. I got a slightly different model that has USB2+3 via Amazon but you can't go far wrong with one of these. They can run from same 12v power supply as your scope too.  I have mine connected via ethernet for fastest speed but it was ok via wifi too. For planetary I didn't find it ideal, but for everything else (SGP + PHD2) its been perfect for my requirements (deep sky imaging). With it having windows 10 pro you can just remote desktop into it so super easy. Great from my experience but sure there are many other good mini-pc that would do a great job too. 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/computers/beelink-gkmini-mini-pc.html

Edited by AbsolutelyN
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34 minutes ago, dazzystar said:

What would be there minimum specs I should be considering

I would suggest that all you need is a cheap'n'cheerful second-hand laptop.
Things to consider would be the number and type of USB port.

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Mini PCs come and go from vendors all the time so its hard to recommend something that you buy a while from now. But the basics would be at least 8gb ram and an SSD, and running WIN10. Any CPU basically works so dont sweat it that much. The key part here is the ability to run the thing off of USB C fast charge to work with battery packs. This is not always mentioned in the sales ad so takes a bit of research.

Mine has an old i5 and 16GB of ram and it works for everything related to capture, but it probably doesnt have to be as good as mine.

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Unless you intend to stack and process large RAW files on the machine then the spec required to simply control the mount and operate USB cameras doesn't need to an all singing and dancing affair.  I have an old PC that runs CDC, PHD2, EQMOD and APT.  It's based around a 2.5Ghz Pentium dual Core processor circa 2010, with 4GB of old DDR 3 memory, a 500GB mechanical hard drive.  The old motherboard has a serial port, stacks of USB2 ports, and whilst originally ran windows 7, now comfortably runs windows 10 without issue.  I can remote into it from the comfort of the lounge and it handles the gathering of data (mostly) without problems.

These days you can pick up 3rd / 4th gen i3 and i5 based ex business machines with 4Gb ram and a 500 GB hdd with windows installed for £50 - £80.  - I needed a PC for the study and picked up an HP8200 small form factor PC, i5 with 8GB DDR3 ram, 500GB hard drive (later used as a data drive and fitted a cheap 250GB SSD for the OS) with a licenced copy of windows 7 pro for just £59 from a local computer shop.  Granted its not as compact as a NUC PC, but would make a fine machine for use with a scope

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I've been using INDI / Kstars on a Raspberry Pi 4 (so Linux rather than Windows), however, having been pointed to the Beelink that FLO recently started shipping I have been seriously considering about that as an upgrade for a week or so. It runs Windows for those that want it, but can also be loaded up with Ubuntu.

For the price, it is comparable to a Raspberry Pi, once you've taken into account that it comes with a SSD, power supply, integrated case, the ability to run Windows etc... plus it has 4 USB3 ports, wheras a recent Pi has 2 USB3 + 2 USB2 ports. The performance should be substantially better, even though the Pi currently performs adequately.

Anyway, I've just bitten the bullet, and ordered the GKmini :), so will report back when it arrives and I've had a play - I will probably be loadnig Linux onto it though, via a spare SSD that I think I have lying around somewhere, thus keeping Windows as an option for the future.

 

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Well, it arrived today (service excellent, didn't specify Saturday delivery, thanks DPD!! - less than 20 hours from order to delivery), have managed to load Kubuntu onto it, took a while to work out, couldn't replace the M.2 drive, as was it is glooped to the board with some masticky adhesive, so added a 500GB SATA drive and eventually worked out the BIOS settings to boot from it by default.

Writing this now on the box (via mini-keyboard so typos accepted). Reckon this is going to be a good improvement, and I'll be able to expand from using INDI only to ASCOM + Windows as well and be able to compare the two.

Of course, I appear to have accidentally ordered both Clouds and Snow with this order, apologies all.

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Shame you're not using Windows on it as that's what I'm 99% sure I'll need (as I'm probably going to go down the NINA route which only runs on Windows). The Beelink is on offer on Amazon so tempted...very temped. Which model did you buy?

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1 hour ago, dazzystar said:

Shame you're not using Windows on it as that's what I'm 99% sure I'll need (as I'm probably going to go down the NINA route which only runs on Windows). The Beelink is on offer on Amazon so tempted...very temped. Which model did you buy?

Gk mini 8gb + 250gb ssd.

Sure it is capable of running any acquisition software  

I am dual booting so I still have the option of trying out NINA etc ...

Edited by gilesco
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I added a 500GB SATA drive to it, and that is where I've loaded Linux, so I am able to dual boot from Windows 10 Pro, or into Kubuntu 20.04. I have setup INDI / Ekos / Kstars on Kubuntu and it all appears to be working (weather is not good, so can't do real-world stuff, but testing is promising).

Under Windows I installed the ASCOM platform and all the drivers for:

Two ZWO cameras, ASI EFW, Sesto Senso 2 focuser, Pegasus Power Box Advance, GPS etc... not done much testing under that platform, but it is nice to have access to Windows for device firmware upgrades etc... I also installed NINA and had a play ensuring all devices could be detected.

Everything looks good. Under windows updates the box is showing up as "Can Run Windows 11", but it is not actually offering the upgrade to Win 11 as yet.

With regards to power, I am powering it using one of the 12V channels on the Pegasus PPBA, seems to work just fine, and the power cables that came with the PPBA fit OK into the GKmini - correct voltage, correct size. Total power draw well within the 10A limit on the PPBA, although I usually power my mount via a separate 12V line, not the PPBA as it is all mounted on the OTA.

To finalise things I now need to re-design my perspex mounting plates, the GKmini came with a mounting kit, whereas I was using Velcro tapes for the Raspberry Pi, as it has a mounting plate I think I'd prefer to use that rather than mess about with adhesives + Velcro.

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On 16/12/2021 at 13:09, AbsolutelyN said:

I got a Beelink back in May and it's absolutely brilliant. FLO have recently started selling them. I got a slightly different model that has USB2+3 via Amazon but you can't go far wrong with one of these. They can run from same 12v power supply as your scope too.  I have mine connected via ethernet for fastest speed but it was ok via wifi too. For planetary I didn't find it ideal, but for everything else (SGP + PHD2) its been perfect for my requirements (deep sky imaging). With it having windows 10 pro you can just remote desktop into it so super easy. Great from my experience but sure there are many other good mini-pc that would do a great job too. 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/computers/beelink-gkmini-mini-pc.html

Do you know if these PC’s that @FLO is selling, have the option of booting on power on, but that I mean if out in an obsy, when I turn the power on from the house to the mount, will the PC auto boot up, as my current NUC does, but looking to replace….also do they work ok in headless mode, with no mouse, monitor. Or keyboard connected, or do they need some sort of dummy HDMI plug…?

 

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According to the Beelink site they do support auto boot on powering. I don't have this particular model but all the mini-pcs I've used including Beelink work fine in headless mode, with no dummy HDMI plug, or keyboard/mouse required. The resolution can be set by the remote computer over vnc or remote desktop and that resolution is kept after repowering.

Alan

Edited by symmetal
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15 hours ago, symmetal said:

According to the Beelink site they do support auto boot on powering. I don't have this particular model but all the mini-pcs I've used including Beelink work fine in headless mode, with no dummy HDMI plug, or keyboard/mouse required. The resolution can be set by the remote computer over vnc or remote desktop and that resolution is kept after repowering.

Alan

Correct, there is an option in the BIOS to auto-power-on when power is applied. Good for remote observatories. I have this disabled, as I like to stagger the power on.

I suspect whether VNC works with HDMI with or without a HDMI plug is more a operating system thing rather than the hardware. I've put in a HDMI plug in mine (they're typically < £5)

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I use an i7 based Gigabyte Brix Mini PC with 8GB of RAM, 4x usb 3.0 ports, 1x Gigabit Ethernet Port, and one HDMI.

Probably quite a bit of overkill, for job.

I communicate with it via Ethernet, using  indows RDP, and i5 based laptop, with 4GB of RAM.

Windows 10 Home on the Laptop,  and Windows 10 Pro on the Mini PC.

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Hi

For what it's worth.....I have been using similar spec' Gigabyte Brix as Centroid. I wouldn't call it overkill but it certainly handles everything very smoothly.
Purchased from dealer on Ebay with 12 month warranty for £140.
It has solved all my previous USB cabling problems and has proved to be vary stable. I'm currently running an Altair Astro 269c osc, Zwo mini guide and PMC8 mount control directly connected to the Brix.

I then connect to my main PC via ethernet cable using Microsoft Remote Desktop, this allows me to run SharpCap, Cartes du Ciel, PHD2 on the mini PC.
At the end of session I just copy my folder of images across to main PC for processing.
Also have the option of WiFi Remote Desktop but broadband in my neck of the woods is not very reliable.

Jack

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  • 3 weeks later...

I would urge caution.....

All the above posts suggest that you need limited computing power and minimum RAM. That is true for astrophotography, but for EEVA (EAA) it is only true up to a point.....

For example, the last post mentions 'Post-Processing'. and the transfer of data to a more powerful PC.  Some earlier posts also only talk about 'Data Capture'.  I don't want to start a debate about what is or isn't EEVA, but the tasks involved are highly material to the computing power required. Some other forums don't consider post processing as included within EEVA (EAA). Most people consider EAA to be near live observing (albeit you might save an image too) . LIVE frame stacking inevitably requires more IMMEDIATE computing power and RAM than if capturing data for LATER post processing. 

1.  If doing single exposure long term astrophotography, then you need little computing power or RAM.

2.  If capturing multiple exposures and <saving> them for LATER post processing you still need very little processing power - but storage might be a consideration - and post processing might take a considerable time dependent of speed of CPU.

3. If LIVE stacking multiple exposures with each frame exceeding ten seconds when using a low resolution, small sensor camera you might still need merely a modest amount of extra computing power.

4. If LIVE stacking multiple exposures, each frame exceeding ten seconds length, using a high resolution, large sensor camera you then need more computing power. Perhaps a decent i3.

5. If LIVE stacking multiple exposures using a high resolution, large sensor camera, plus adding darks on the fly, and other sequenced tasks, you need far more computing power. Perhaps at least decent i5. but be cautions as Intel processors come in generations. An older i7 is slower than a recent i3.

6. If you do as I do, live stack two second exposures, using HyperStar at f/2, using a high resolution, large sensor camera in and 'end to end' 4K UHD system then you need at least an eight generation i7 with 16 Gb RAM.

7. The chosen operating system is also highly material. Windows 10 is a resource hog. Other operating systems are far less greedy.  

I read many posts telling us that any old budget computer will do for EEVA (EAA) and that advice cost me silly money in progressive upgrades because I did not heed the above. Few of the posts above specify what camera, what f/ratio, what length of exposures (time), what size of frames (data) , what frame rate (faster means more data throughput), what sensor size, what resolution, whether post processing or live stacking etc.  EEVA, (EAA) as defined in Stargazers Lounge is a broad church. ranging from 2 to 6. Do NOT underestimate your computing and RAM requirements. if nearer 6.

 

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48 minutes ago, noah4x4 said:

I read many posts telling us that any old budget computer will do for EEVA (EAA) and that advice cost me silly money in progressive upgrades

The OP did mention some specifics -

  • looking for the minimum specs possible.
  • must be able to be battery powered.
  • most heavy processing on another PC.
  • while he mentioned sharpcap, he may have been looking to try the EAA route, but he didn't mention it specifically.
52 minutes ago, noah4x4 said:

If you do as I do, live stack two second exposures, using HyperStar at f/2, using a high resolution, large sensor camera in and 'end to end' 4K UHD system then you need at least an eight generation i7 with 16 Gb RAM.

A trade off here is that if you have a high wattage CPU, then you will also need to have a bigger battery to run it on, or lower your expectations on how long you can run for before needing to re-charge your battery.

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2 hours ago, noah4x4 said:

I would urge caution.....

All the above posts suggest that you need limited computing power and minimum RAM. That is true for astrophotography, but for EEVA (EAA) it is only true up to a point.....

I think your comments are valid, but the OP made no mention of EEVA, and even stated that post processing would be done on a more capable PC.  

For simply controlling equipment, and data gathering a lot of the recommendations above will still suit the task, including an old dual core Pentium :)  -  If you wanted to do EEVA or stack and process the data gathered at the time of gathering data then I agree a much more capable machine is required, and agree with your comments regarding newer processors outclassing older processors of a higher order.  This then brings into question the dilemma of having two machines, or putting all your eggs in one basket and get a machine that is capable of doing it all.  If so then I would suggest that any machine that is 18 months or newer would be a future proof option.  In a few months time AMD will be releasing their new range of processors that have been spec's to run at 5Ghz on all cores... making them the ideal processor for anything that needs the umph such as video / cgi rendering and image processing....

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On 07/01/2022 at 17:10, malc-c said:

I think your comments are valid, but the OP made no mention of EEVA, and even stated that post processing would be done on a more capable PC.  

For simply controlling equipment, and data gathering a lot of the recommendations above will still suit the task, including an old dual core Pentium :)  -  If you wanted to do EEVA or stack and process the data gathered at the time of gathering data then I agree a much more capable machine is required, and agree with your comments regarding newer processors outclassing older processors of a higher order.  This then brings into question the dilemma of having two machines, or putting all your eggs in one basket and get a machine that is capable of doing it all.  If so then I would suggest that any machine that is 18 months or newer would be a future proof option.  In a few months time AMD will be releasing their new range of processors that have been spec's to run at 5Ghz on all cores... making them the ideal processor for anything that needs the umph such as video / cgi rendering and image processing....

If not intending to pursue EEVA (live stacking etc), then why post the question in an EEVA equipment forum?

I have two Intel seventh generation i5 NUCSs purchased within the last 18 months and it is already evident that they won't run Windows 11, so how is the timing of purchase any guarantee of future proofing? It is also still possible to buy new low specification Celeron specification PCs.  My post deliberately embraced the full gamut of imaging from single exposures (1) to the opposite extreme of high resolution, live stacking at 4K UHD (6). I clearly stated that (1) requires minimal computing and (6) significant, with escalating demand on CPU and RAM in between. The OP needs to determine where he fits within that range.  But my response was because I was concerned that the common thrust of this thread was that "almost any PC will do", which isn't helpful to the unwary.  Equipment specifications are also changing fast after many years of being stuck in the low resolution CCD paradigm. 

How long before 10 megapixel + astro cameras become routine? Today, you can't buy a new DSLR with anything less than 24 megapixel. Such demand drives sensor availability within the astro-camera market.  Count how many different CMOS cameras have been launched by ZWO in the last four years, each driven by obsolescence of their previous 'wonder sensor'. Note how CCD has become incredibly expensive, and how CMOS dominates new astro camera purchases.  4K UHD is becoming the de facto standard for TVs and prices of large screen 4K panels have crashed from £5,000 to under £500 in no time at all. My Viewsonic 30" 4K UHD monitor was merely £250.   What is the point of buying a camera like a ZWO ASI294 or ASI533 or  Atik Horizon each exceeding 4K UHD and then limiting its display to mere 1080p HD? The technology of commonly purchased camera sensors is already outstripping current display and computer convention common in astronomy circles.

Frankly, I wasted nearly £1,500 on two (i5) mini-computers that worked fine for traditional AP on a 1080p monitor, but proved hopeless for anything more intensive.  I am now on my third NUC, an eight generation i7 with 16 Gb RAM (hence have spent over £2,000 in total on mini-computers) and it works fine for (6), but  that is perhaps still not ensuring future proofing. For example, SharpCap 4.0 Pro has just added 'sequencing' functionality.  Hence, features previously only seen in expensive software like Maxim DL are  available in £12 per annum licence software.  I already know people that are now not just adding 'darks and flats on the fly', they are plate-solving and auto-focussing between each live stacked frame.  Hence, demands on CPU and RAM are soaring, unless one remains stuck in a current less challenging paradigm.

The reason I wasted so much money was because people keep reinforcing the stereotype that virtually "any PC will do."  My point is that it is vital to think holistically  and much depends NOT upon what you plan to do today, but what you MIGHT  be doing next year. 

 

 

Edited by noah4x4
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