Sad story, new beginning

[Thomas Burgess]

Time to tell a story.

Right, I live in Bath, UK, when I was a nipper (now 43) I went to the Herschel museum, got interested.

Parents brought me a telescope, never got it to work, thought it was me and gave up, found out years later it was faulty.

30 odd years later during lockdown I tried again. This time an Amazon deal (fool, I know), was fun and rewarding but noticed the secondary mirror fixture was basically shredded and effectively floating.

This year I want to do it right, I have a budget of £600 max. I have been looking at the Sky-Watcher 127 Virtuoso Goto GTi but can't find any reviews on it, can anyone advise.

I've gone for the table top version due to portability and space, have 3 young kids I'd like to inspire but also be able to easily pick up and defend from them with speed.

Also looking at a little basic astrophotography when my skills increase..and make me feel like a big boy..err man.

Apologies for the long post.

[Captain Scarlet]

SW’s Mak 127 needs no reviews really, it’s universally regarded as very good indeed. It’s what I started with 5-6 years ago. And the virtuoso mount though I’ve not tried it is bound to be good.

However, in light of my experience, were I to start again i would go for the heritage 150 virtuoso combination.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/telescopes-in-stock/sky-watcher-heritage-150p-flextube-virtuoso-gti.html

It’s a more accessible focal length allowing for reasonably high mag when necessary but also lovely wide-field views which the Mak 127 is less able at.

within your budget you’d also be able to replace the stock eyepieces with say BST starguiders which are not expensive but much superior.

Cheers Magnus

[Budding Star Gazer]

7 hours ago, Thomas Burgess said:

Time to tell a story.

Right, I live in Bath, UK, when I was a nipper (now 43) I went to the Herschel museum, got interested.

Parents brought me a telescope, never got it to work, thought it was me and gave up, found out years later it was faulty.

30 odd years later during lockdown I tried again. This time an Amazon deal (fool, I know), was fun and rewarding but noticed the secondary mirror fixture was basically shredded and effectively floating.

This year I want to do it right, I have a budget of £600 max. I have been looking at the Sky-Watcher 127 Virtuoso Goto GTi but can't find any reviews on it, can anyone advise.

I've gone for the table top version due to portability and space, have 3 young kids I'd like to inspire but also be able to easily pick up and defend from them with speed.

Also looking at a little basic astrophotography when my skills increase..and make me feel like a big boy..err man.

Apologies for the long post.

When on a tight budget apature is what you should consider the priority, space might be tight but an 8" dobsonian when packed upright on its base does not take up a lot of room. 

The goto mounts are fun but that is what you're paying for so the OTA is nornally always small. 

With apps available on your phone for a very cheap price or free (i use stallerium) its quite easy to guide yourself around the sky with a manual scope and make good observations on a larger apature scope. 

Can i suggest you check out the orion 8" skyquest. You will probably get far more viewing pleasure for you and your family that you will with a small OTA goto. 

Always purchase what you know you will be happy with & what you think you will get the most enjoyment from. 

[Carbon Brush]

There have been quite a few threads recently in the beginners section. All about fisrt scope choices. All with a lot of input from numerous members.
A look there would (I'm sure) be very useful to help you look at options.

Like the posts above, I would tend towards a reflector, for many reasons included in the other threads.
In addition, in case of accidents, a newtonian reflector is a basic construction.
Unless you actually break glass (which is difficult) you can hammer things back to shape and re-align without much effort.
The reflectors have a basic construction - which is why pre mass production days, so many were home built. Some still are.
 

Astrophotography is a completely different subject. It is a huge money pit.
At this stage look for nothing more than your phone to the eyepiece for a snap of the moon or Jupiter.

Just enjoy the shared views with the children.

HTH, David.
 

[Thomas Burgess]

Thanks for all the advice.

Already have better eye pieces, I brought them for the "Amazon" telescope but never really used them before I saw it was knackered.

The kids are 4,5,7, wife also just got a "mad" fox red lab, and a house that's a free for all. That's why a "stealth" scope is useful, also the wife is sold on it, and that's the most important "spec" when buying anything.

Spent the morning looking at the 10" Sky-Watcher Dob, drooled over it but impractical for life at the moment.

Yeah, I hear astro is a money pit, fortunately my wife has a good dslr as she's a hunter, so that helps a little.

I will look at the 150p though, thanks Captain M.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Thomas Burgess

[Cosmic Geoff]

You do not need to search for a review of the 127mm Makusov - everybody here who has used one knows that these are fine instruments.

I have not seen a Viruoso mount, but I wonder if this is the most suitable mount for your circumstances. Young children tend to grab anything within reach, not least the eyepiece end of a telescope. With a GoTo scope, he last thing you want is anybody pulling at or jolting it after it has been set up, as this will upset the alignment, and you will have to take time out to set it up again.  It would seem better to put the scope on a heavy mount that is resistant to being pulled or knocked.

I took a 102mm f5 refractor + AZ4-2 mount to an outreach meeting a couple of months ago, and was surprised to find that this low-magnification setup (chosen more for robustness than anything else) gave various members of the public a "wow" factor when aimed at Jupiter and Saturn or the Moon. 

Inevitably some forum menbers will suggest getting a Dobsonian telescope, where the same money gets you a bigger telescope and a more basic mount, less easily knocked over if floor mounted, and this is certainly something to consider.

As for astrophotography, note that 1) it costs a lot of money, and 2) the kit bears little relation to what you would buy for visual use.  The 127 Mak + Virtuoso does not look suitable for imaging other than of the most basic sort.  For planetary imaging a dedicated planetary video camera attached to the scope,+ laptop will work much better (not child or dog proof?)

[M40]

Hello Thomas and welcome to the site. This combination of telescope and mount look to me to be a good choice. I was a little concerned about speed of setup with young people quickly losing interest when I noticed that the telescope can also be mounted on a traditional tripod. This would make for a very quick setup whilst you learn your way around the goto system. Can I add that I would look to include the 7Ah power tank to your shopping list, I cant see the AA batteries lasting very long. Another option to think about is to add a moon filter to your shopping list. Not expensive and the moon can be quite bright. All the best and enjoy.

[Thomas Burgess]

Thanks for the help again, I've heard that the Sky-Watcher az GTi goto models "Freedom find, Dual-encoder" tech is supposed to deal with wandering hands issue.

The new Virtuoso has this (apparently) a toss up between this.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-gti-wifi/sky-watcher-skymax-127-az-gti.html

Or.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-gti-wifi/sky-watcher-skymax-127-virtuoso-gti.html

I thought the Virtuoso because I could mount it on a stand later down the road if needed.

 

 

 

 

[Thomas Burgess]

Also as my last reply "leap frogged" a comment.

Thanks Cosmic G., Tbh, my astrophotography plans are very basic, if I fail at it and give up then all I've done is, avoid an expensive road.😁

My job is building high-end gaming PC's, I've become surprised and fascinated by stacking, never knew it existed, but that's a whole other subject. You astro guys are cleaver beavers.

To M40, thanks for the positive reply, I'll be sure to let you know how I get on. I originally looked at the Celestron Nexstars and such, but wow, do they like to "nickel and dime" you on all the required extra's.

[Capt Slog]

In terms of storage, I've found that the telescope can pack up into quite a small space.  This is the cabinet I made from an instrument packing case, it's attached to the wall of an outbuilding...

 

You can see that the design of the panels means that it's bigger than it has to be, and wastes space but it's still around 83cm high x 45 wide and 33 deep.  The tripod is hanging at the back.

 

Inside...

 

Lined with carpet tiles.

[Zermelo]

56 minutes ago, Thomas Burgess said:

"Freedom find, Dual-encoder"

The benefit of dual encoders ("Freedom Find" being the SW brand name, but other manufacturers have similar tech) is in a scenario where you have aligned your mount, so that it knows how it is oriented (and so you can then use goto and tracking) and then at some point you decide to manually move (i.e. by slackening the clutch) the scope to point to a different part of the sky, rather than using the goto. This is not uncommon when sharing a session with children or newcomers, you might be darting all over the place. The dual encoders will keep track of where you are pointing; without them, you must move the scope using the controller. They will also deal with the scope being pulled off target by its eyepiece due to over-excited small people. What they won't deal with is the entire setup being moved from the position where it was aligned, for example by a tripod leg being kicked. You would then need to re-align.

 

 

[Girders]

With kids those ages I think your plan for the Virtuoso mount is spot on.  Yes, non goto scopes will give you better optics for your cash, but trying to share views with three young children without a tracking scope is a total non-starter.    I use a Skymax 127 on the old version of the Virtuoso and it worked well for sharing with my now 8 year old since she was 4.  I can be confident that she gets to see what I've set the scope up to look at.

As for the Mak vs 150p on the Virtuoso debate - I think either would be a good choice.  The Mak will give a narrower field of vision and it took e some time to get the hang of locating objects - a really well aligned finder scope is a must.  It will also require longer cool-down time.  The 150p will be quicker to get using and will give wider views but will require collimation from time to time.

Your younger kids will likely struggle using the eyepieces - it's quite a skill for them to master so get yourself a smartphone adaptor you can pt on the end so that they can view on the phone screen.  Not ideal and can be a hassle to line up but at least then you know that they are seeing what you want them to.

Manage your expectations as well - the number of times a year when the planets are in good location for viewing at a suitable time for kids to be out of bed when the weather co-operates is pretty slim pickings.  The moon is more reliable but won't hold their interest for too many cold nights.

Lastly - my one concern about the new Virtuoso mounts is that they don't have physical directional buttons like the 1st gen do (they required an add on to make them goto and smart phone controllable).  This means that when making fine adjustments you'll struggle to press "buttons" on the phone while looking down the eyepiece.  

Good luck!

[Thomas Burgess]

2 hours ago, Girders said:

With kids those ages I think your plan for the Virtuoso mount is spot on.  Yes, non goto scopes will give you better optics for your cash, but trying to share views with three young children without a tracking scope is a total non-starter.    I use a Skymax 127 on the old version of the Virtuoso and it worked well for sharing with my now 8 year old since she was 4.  I can be confident that she gets to see what I've set the scope up to look at.

As for the Mak vs 150p on the Virtuoso debate - I think either would be a good choice.  The Mak will give a narrower field of vision and it took e some time to get the hang of locating objects - a really well aligned finder scope is a must.  It will also require longer cool-down time.  The 150p will be quicker to get using and will give wider views but will require collimation from time to time.

Your younger kids will likely struggle using the eyepieces - it's quite a skill for them to master so get yourself a smartphone adaptor you can pt on the end so that they can view on the phone screen.  Not ideal and can be a hassle to line up but at least then you know that they are seeing what you want them to.

Manage your expectations as well - the number of times a year when the planets are in good location for viewing at a suitable time for kids to be out of bed when the weather co-operates is pretty slim pickings.  The moon is more reliable but won't hold their interest for too many cold nights.

Lastly - my one concern about the new Virtuoso mounts is that they don't have physical directional buttons like the 1st gen do (they required an add on to make them goto and smart phone controllable).  This means that when making fine adjustments you'll struggle to press "buttons" on the phone while looking down the eyepiece.  

Good luck!

Thanks Girders, great post.

Brought sky Safari 6 pro last week any way as it was 50% off and figured it was a good club to have in my bag anyway.

In regards to the issue of making adjustments while looking through the eye piece, that's a good point. I'm surprised these apps don't have a simple voice control function, that would by cool and sci-fi.😁

[Cosmic Geoff]

6 hours ago, Thomas Burgess said:

I originally looked at the Celestron Nexstars and such, but wow, do they like to "nickel and dime" you on all the required extra's.

I don't think they are any worse than any other make in that respect. If a set of good eyepieces, an external power pack, a phone holder, etc were included it would put up the price to the point where customers would not buy or would go elsewhere.

BTW, if you buy the Mak it needs a dew shield. It's essential, not an optional extra, in our climate. 

[Thomas Burgess]

10 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

I don't think they are any worse than any other make in that respect. If a set of good eyepieces, an external power pack, a phone holder, etc were included it would put up the price to the point where customers would not buy or would go elsewhere.

BTW, if you buy the Mak it needs a dew shield. It's essential, not an optional extra, in our climate. 

Yeah, I guess so bud, you guys certainly know the market better than me.

Coming from a tech background, I think it was this that blew me away.😁

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/slt-series/celestron-skyportal-wifi-adapter.html

[Gfamily]

1 hour ago, Thomas Burgess said:

Thanks Girders, great post.

Brought sky Safari 6 pro last week any way as it was 50% off and figured it was a good club to have in my bag anyway.

In regards to the issue of making adjustments while looking through the eye piece, that's a good point. I'm surprised these apps don't have a simple voice control function, that would by cool and sci-fi.😁

You shouldn't have any problem using the phone as a control device at the eyepiece. 

I'd be one of the ones to suggest the 150 Newtonian rather than the 127 Maksutov with your children.

Firstly, when used as a table top scope, I think it's easier for children to look at the eyepiece from the side. YMMV of course.

Secondly, the field of view is wider which has a couple of advantages

* the accuracy of the GOTO becomes less critical (and if it gets nudged a bit, it's easier to re-find the targets )

* many open clusters simply don't fit in the fov of the 127. The Double Cluster (for example) turns into the cluster and a half.

Finally, for any table top scope with children, if you suggest they put their hands on the table first, then they'll be less tempted to grab hold of the eyepiece as they look through it. 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Gfamily

[Thomas Burgess]

9 hours ago, Capt Slog said:

In terms of storage, I've found that the telescope can pack up into quite a small space.  This is the cabinet I made from an instrument packing case, it's attached to the wall of an outbuilding...

 

You can see that the design of the panels means that it's bigger than it has to be, and wastes space but it's still around 83cm high x 45 wide and 33 deep.  The tripod is hanging at the back.

 

Inside...

 

Lined with carpet tiles.

Didn't mean to miss you out Captain Slog...hmmm a lot of captains on the forums here, handy for an alien invasion I suppose.😏😁

That's a great build, sadly, my skills are comparable to Homer Simpson's spice rack.🙄

[Zermelo]

4 hours ago, Thomas Burgess said:

I'm surprised these apps don't have a simple voice control function, that would by cool and sci-fi

SkySafari does have voice control, as an "experimental feature".

Personally, I wouldn't even try it unless I can move to a place with a couple of acres of garden!

[Thomas Burgess]

2 minutes ago, Zermelo said:

SkySafari does have voice control, as an "experimental feature".

Personally, I wouldn't even try it unless I can move to a place with a couple of acres of garden!

Thanks for the heads up Zermelo, sure I can spare five minutes to access an "experimental feature", that's usually how long it takes.😏

[Capt Slog]

13 hours ago, Thomas Burgess said:

Didn't mean to miss you out Captain Slog...hmmm a lot of captains on the forums here, handy for an alien invasion I suppose.😏😁

That's a great build, sadly, my skills are comparable to Homer Simpson's spice rack.🙄

No worries, I didn't feel missed.    and yes, there are a few Captains. *

It wasn't a great build really, it was a lash-up with what was around, and I happened to have a packing crate from my son's works that a piece of metrology apparatus was delivered in.  It was butchered to make it smaller, but eventually scrubbed up okay.  Don't be hard on yourself, and have a go, the internet makes things easy.

 

*(Many miss the reference, but "Captain's Log, Stardate 43917.4. The Enterprise has etc.....")

[Thomas Burgess]

19 hours ago, Gfamily said:

You shouldn't have any problem using the phone as a control device at the eyepiece. 

I'd be one of the ones to suggest the 150 Newtonian rather than the 127 Maksutov with your children.

Firstly, when used as a table top scope, I think it's easier for children to look at the eyepiece from the side. YMMV of course.

Secondly, the field of view is wider which has a couple of advantages

* the accuracy of the GOTO becomes less critical (and if it gets nudged a bit, it's easier to re-find the targets )

* many open clusters simply don't fit in the fov of the 127. The Double Cluster (for example) turns into the cluster and a half.

Finally, for any table top scope with children, if you suggest they put their hands on the table first, then they'll be less tempted to grab hold of the eyepiece as they look through it. 

 

 

I guess it's entirely possible to buy the 127 version, then buy the a secondary scope for it down the line, wouldn't be getting the kids involved anyway for a few months.

I should know more what I'm doing by then and if the system worth investigating in.

[Gfamily]

5 hours ago, Thomas Burgess said:

I guess it's entirely possible to buy the 127 version, then buy the a secondary scope for it down the line, wouldn't be getting the kids involved anyway for a few months.

I should know more what I'm doing by then and if the system worth investigating in.

Yes, as far as I can tell, the mount will take any scope with a Vixen type dovetail.