Why do really expensive scopes sell and what attracts us to them ?

[Ags]

32 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

we possibly had including several TV eyepieces and a wedge to boot. Even vibration pads, when I say wealthy I mean stinking,  I made commission and he kept asking for whatever we had. When I rolled all of this out to his car on a dolly he quickly realized this would not fit in his Ferarri and had a friend pick it up for him. This scope he explained was for display  and occasional use when he had company to impress at his cottage because he saw a movie where a chap had a beautiful scope on display in his cottage and he liked the idea. One week later he called me at the shop asking if I could remind him where the eyepieces went. 

I think we can call that a "brag and go" telescope!

Edited November 29, 2021 by Ags

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

22 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

lol, I recall working in a scope shop in my teens when a young, wealthy man came in and insisted on the most expensive scope, I sold him the 12" LX200 we had in stock. With it I sold him every acssesory

we possibly had including several TV eyepieces and a wedge to boot. Even vibration pads, when I say wealthy I mean stinking,  I made commission and he kept asking for whatever we had. When I rolled all of this out to his car on a dolly he quickly realized this would not fit in his Ferarri and had a friend pick it up for him. This scope he explained was for display  and occasional use when he had company to impress at his cottage because he saw a movie where a chap had a beautiful scope on display in his cottage and he liked the idea. One week later he called me at the shop asking if I could remind him where the eyepieces went. 

Several one word phrases come to mind describing Mr Ferrari and they all break the forum rules!

[Alan White]

1 hour ago, Ags said:

I think we can call that a "brag and go" telescope!

I think that needs a drum roll Ags, very good.

[F15Rules]

On 27/11/2021 at 19:40, JeremyS said:

I can see why you might think like that about the word pride, Olly. On the other hand I used it a few times earlier today (in my head, anyway) as I was drafting my Father of the Bride speech about my eldest  😊

Congratulations, Jeremy!!🤗

..which of your Taks is getting married?🍾🥂

Dave

[JeremyS]

6 minutes ago, F15Rules said:

Congratulations, Jeremy!!🤗

..which of your Taks is getting married?🍾🥂

Dave

Well, I think I could get a Hurd of Taks for what the wedding is costing 

[Alan White]

22 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

Well, I think I could get a Hurd of Taks for what the wedding is costing 

And probably have plenty of pecket change as well.

Jockingly tell my two daughters that I will run to a pub snack (packet of crisps) and a drink at the bar,
other than that don't get to excited.......but I don't mean a word of it though and one day perhaps will have to dig deep.

 

[Concordia000]

4 hours ago, Sunshine said:

lol, I recall working in a scope shop in my teens when a young, wealthy man came in and insisted on the most expensive scope, I sold him the 12" LX200 we had in stock. With it I sold him every acssesory

we possibly had including several TV eyepieces and a wedge to boot. Even vibration pads, when I say wealthy I mean stinking,  I made commission and he kept asking for whatever we had. When I rolled all of this out to his car on a dolly he quickly realized this would not fit in his Ferarri and had a friend pick it up for him. This scope he explained was for display  and occasional use when he had company to impress at his cottage because he saw a movie where a chap had a beautiful scope on display in his cottage and he liked the idea. One week later he called me at the shop asking if I could remind him where the eyepieces went. 

Hey, if he didn’t ask for a refund then it’s mission accomplished — he got the bragging rights and you got the commission.

[F15Rules]

1 hour ago, JeremyS said:

Well, I think I could get a Hurd of Taks for what the wedding is costing 

My nephew got married about 6 years ago in a swanky Golf and Country Club in the Midlands.. he and his bride wanted the "full experience".

The wedding cost £25k..that's over £1000 an hour for each hour they were in the hotel (they stayed overnight)😱😱. They also had another similar wedding going on in the same venue at the same time, so it wasn't exactly "exclusive".

It was a great day, but worth £25k?? not so, IMHO. They now have a modest home of their own, but still owe money on their wedding costs, as their parents couldn't afford to fund that kind of cost.

My eldest daughter got married about the same time, and spent about £6k. They wanted a nice wedding but wanted their own home even more, and and her husband was in the middle of doing his PHD, so had no prospect of permanent long term employment with pension, holidays etc on the short term, so effectively my daughter had to be the main earner during that time. We have 3 grown up children and always treat them all the same, so we gave them all a modest sum of money in keeping with our means, and told them to use it as they saw fit.

Our eldest daughter and her husband had a wonderful day in a lovely hotel with a 12th century chapel next door for the blessing..they saved really hard while renting a tiny one bedroom flat, and within 4 years of being married had saved enough for a deposit on their own beautiful 2 bedroomed cottage in Devon.

Our youngest daughter did the same in 2018, and now has a home in Yorkshire, and our son, who is not yet married, put his towards a house deposit in the Midlands. All 3 are now homeowners. Everyone's different, and has different priorities, but I'm very proud of the way our children and their partners have set their priorities 😊.

Have a wonderful time at your own daughters' special day Jeremy, and try not to mention the word "Tak" in your speech too often!👍😂

Dave 

[Maideneer]

I want to know why I can spend $4,000 on a tube and mount and they can't even have the decency to throw in an AC adapter.

[Franklin]

I'm dreading the day my daughter announces her intentions of marriage. I may have to sell my telescopes!😪

[Franklin]

1 hour ago, JeremyS said:

I could get a Hurd of Taks

I thought you already had.😀

[LDW1]

5 minutes ago, Franklin said:

I'm dreading the day my daughter announces her intentions of marriage. I may have to sell my telescopes!😪

I doubt it, lol !

[Deadlake]

1 hour ago, JeremyS said:

Well, I think I could get a Hurd of Taks for what the wedding is costing 

The only other Taks you need are a TOA and a Mewlon, then you have almost full house! 😃

[Franklin]

1 minute ago, LDW1 said:

I doubt it, lol !

I know, I'm only joking. I'm actually quite good with money management and have various options put in place for lifes eventualities, including my own funeral costs and I'm only 53!😀

[Sunshine]

43 minutes ago, Concordia000 said:

Hey, if he didn’t ask for a refund then it’s mission accomplished — he got the bragging rights and you got the commission.

Yes! He still has it collecting dust I assume, I made commission and the entire store quota for the month. He proudly walked off with 7 TV eyepieces if memory serves me well.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sunshine

[Ags]

You should have sold him a Seben Big Boss at a "special price".

[F15Rules]

On 26/11/2021 at 20:35, John said:

This is a genuine question that I have been asking myself for the past 5 years or so but I'm still unsure what the answer is.

We have access to some excellent scopes these days for great prices and yet there seems to be unabated enthusiasm still for similar specified scopes from the really expensive marques.

My personal experience seems to indicate that the actual performance differences between moderately expensive scope and one of the really expensive versions amount to perhaps 5% or so (depends on how you quantify performance I suppose) but the price differential is often very much more than that - sometime 2x or 3x as expensive.

So what is it that motivates quite a number of us (including myself) to want to own these expensive instruments ?.

My best guess is that, once you have been in the hobby for some time, you develop a burning curiosity to see "what the fuss is all about" with these highly reputed brands. With widespread reporting, through forums such as SGL, I think expectations on what they deliver are, broadly well managed so there is no expectation that whole new target areas will become attainable but it is more about an enthusiasts desire to be using something that is, or is close to, as "good as it gets" within it's niche.

I'd be very interested in others views on this though, both those who have "taken the plunge" and those who have not

I've avoided the terms "premium" and "top end" deliberately because I'm not sure that they are helpful.

What a fascinating thread John👍..

Just to offer a very personal perspective? I think that the time of life plays an important role in informing our scope purchase decisions.

For example, many of us got into the hobby as teenagers, back in the 1960s and 70s..in those days, the 60mm long focus achromats were almost always the starting point for scope ownership, as they were relatively affordable, but never what I'd call really cheap for working class families..

My first proper scope, a Prinz 550 60mm F15 refractor from Dixon's Photographic store in Coventry, cost £39.95 in c 1972. At the time that was about a weeks wages for my dad, and my parents bought it for me for Christmas on the basis that they paid £20, and I would pay the balance on credit over 9months from my Saturday job pumping petrol.

I was so chuffed with that scope..it was a decent Circle T lens, and came with eq mount, finder, wooden tripod and several 0.965" eyepieces. It showed me so much, and my first view of Saturn and it's rings is etched forever in my memory.

At that time, I'd never heard of an "apochromatic" scope at all, or "chromatic aberration"..indeed, my then astro books such as the Observer's Book of Astronomy taught me, in the late, great Sir Patrick Moores' own words, that Vega "is a beautiful bluish white star" in Lyra..I had no inkling that my scope (and most other refractors of the time) were actually adding the bluish tinge to the image! Even my then "dream scope", a Vixen SP102m 4" F10 refractor was an achromat, and in the 80s it would have cost around £750 for a complete setup including Super Polaris or Great Polaris mount - simply out of the question for youngsters like me...we could drool over the adverts though!😂

Anyway, I had the scope for about 3 years, and sold it as I began to get interested in rock music (and girls😁), and started to learn to play guitar, and joined a band..after that, I got married, into buying a house, better job etc etc, and didn't really come back to the hobby seriously until my 40s, by which time, although I was earning reasonable wages, I had 3 children under 12, and so not a lot of spare cash for scopes.

When I finally did get into a position to buy another scope, I went for another achromat, as that was what I knew, but over time as I read more magazines and later the early internet, I discovered ED "semi apos" and full apos, which were at mind boggling costs (I recall the Vixen Atlux 6" ED refractor was around £4000-5000 all in, and bigger Televue scopes were if anything even dearer).

It was when Celestron and Synta began to offer their ED100 4" F9 scopes at far more affordable prices that I began to really take notice, and over the early 2000s onwards I owned several of these great scopes..the build quality was not in the same league as the Vixen SP102 etc...but the ED glass was excellent, and you could now get a relatively short F9 4" visually virtually colour free scope at a far lower price than ever before.

As my family circumstances and finances improved, I was able to aspire to scopes like the wonderful Vixen ED and FL ranges (always bought used), and I also began to crave a bit more aperture..

I had a very nice Meade AR 127 F9 achromat, which was excellent for the cost, and I came to feel that a 5" refractor, for me, would be all I could ever want. But the introduction to ED glass also made me want colour free 5" viewing.

I did buy a wonderful 5" D&G F15 refractor, which I significantly upgraded, and it was the first scope I ever spent over £1000 on, including all the mods (done superbly by Mark Turner at Moonraker). This scope, now quite familiar to some members here on SGL, "Andromeda" was and is a superb performer, very nearly visually colour free, at F15 (1905mm!!), and could have been my lifetime scope.

Sadly, however, I had to let her go due to the physical difficulty of mounting her properly (almost 2m long), and the fact that I was diagnosed with 2 hernias (not the scope's fault!). 

So Andromeda found a great new home with Steve (@saganite) here on SGL, and I began to look for a more manageable high quality 5" refractor (once you've looked through a good 5", it is HARD to go back to a 4"!😊).

And so it was that, having read everything I could about Takahashi's legendary FS Fluorite range, I decided to set my sights on one. After quite some time (there aren't that many in the UK so far as I know,), a beautiful, mint example became available in summer 2016, complete with Takahashi EM2s mount and tripod and accessories. 

I never dreamed I could buy this wonderful set up, but thanks to the owner's willingness to hold the scope for me for as long as I needed to raise the funds, my dream scope become mine in April 2017. It took me a full 9 months to raise the funds, and involved selling most of my other astro equipment, but I have never once regretted the purchase, and, sad old git that I am, I too still pop into the storage room where "Trinity" lives (yes, I named her too!🤣) to have a quick peek and a touch..

Thanks for staying with me..my real point is, that 30-40 years ago, the pinnacle of my astro dreams was a Vixen 4" F10 achromat..scopes like the FS 128 either didn't exist in my universe, or if they did, were only found in observatories belonging to super rich people or organisations.

Since that time, financial means and availability of superbly performing scopes has pushed our aspirations upwards: I have friends who, having owned a 125cc motorbike in the 70s/80s, have now, in their 50s and 60s, returned to biking, spending £15k-£20k on a brand new Ducati, Triumph, etc - simply because they now have the means to..and besides they are now within their financial reach - families grown up, mortgages paid off, perhaps a legacy received (I wish!!) etc..

People will always aspire to the best they can afford if their means allow it.

I feel so blessed to now own my dream scope. If I never own another scope but this one, I will be quite content..it took almost 50 years from my first scope, but was so worth the wait!🤗😊

Dave

Edited November 29, 2021 by F15Rules

[DaveS]

I still have my Prinz 550, and the simple equatorial that my dad (A toolmaker) knocked up during his lunch breaks.

My next 'scopes were semi home-built 6", and then 8" Newts with mirror sets from Brunnings of Holburn, though the latter got re-worked by David Hinds when he was actually making mirrors. Think it says 1/8 PV on the back.

I now have my "dream scope" in the form of the 12" ODK in my sig. That cost me an arm, the mount cost both legs 🤣.

[John]

Fascinating read Dave / @F15Rules - thanks for posting it

Many of the experiences and feelings that you experienced seem to mirror my own.

Having a very keen desire to own a good scope but barely any budget available and then eventually being able to afford a Vixen SP102M especially so !

It is also a good point that there are a number of other interests around where the costs can far exceed what we pay for quality gear for astronomy. And that our investments often do have long useful lifespans

I did get into rock music (still am, really) but could never seem to learn to play an instrument (lack of patience I think ) so I've spared myself some expense there although I did seem to fork out a fair amount during the late 70's through to the mid 80's on tickets and beer going to see gigs.

My son got married in 2019 so that was a pricey year. My daughter will follow suit quite soon I think so we will have to prise open the bank vault again I'm sure

My other hobbies are bird watching and a bit of fishing which are pretty low cost activities thank goodness !

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by John

[Sunshine]

2 hours ago, F15Rules said:

What a fascinating thread John👍..

Just to offer a very personal perspective? I think that the time of life plays an important role in informing our scope purchase decisions.

For example, many of us got into the hobby as teenagers, back in the 1960s and 70s..in those days, the 60mm long focus achromats were almost always the starting point for scope ownership, as they were relatively affordable, but never what I'd call really cheap for working class families..

My first proper scope, a Prinz 550 60mm F15 refractor from Dixon's Photographic store in Coventry, cost £39.95 in c 1972. At the time that was about a weeks wages for my dad, and my parents bought it for me for Christmas on the basis that they paid £20, and I would pay the balance on credit over 9months from my Saturday job pumping petrol.

I was so chuffed with that scope..it was a decent Circle T lens, and came with eq mount, finder, wooden tripod and several 0.965" eyepieces. It showed me so much, and my first view of Saturn and it's rings is etched forever in my memory.

At that time, I'd never heard of an "apochromatic" scope at all, or "chromatic aberration"..indeed, my then astro books such as the Observer's Book of Astronomy taught me, in the late, great Sir Patrick Moores' own words, that Vega "is a beautiful bluish white star" in Lyra..I had no inkling that my scope (and most other refractors of the time) were actually adding the bluish tinge to the image! Even my then "dream scope", a Vixen SP102m 4" F10 refractor was an achromat, and in the 80s it would have cost around £750 for a complete setup including Super Polaris or Great Polaris mount - simply out of the question for youngsters like me...we could drool over the adverts though!😂

Anyway, I had the scope for about 3 years, and sold it as I began to get interested in rock music (and girls😁), and started to learn to play guitar, and joined a band..after that, I got married, into buying a house, better job etc etc, and didn't really come back to the hobby seriously until my 40s, by which time, although I was earning reasonable wages, I had 3 children under 12, and so not a lot of spare cash for scopes.

When I finally did get into a position to buy another scope, I went for another achromat, as that was what I knew, but over time as I read more magazines and later the early internet, I discovered ED "semi apos" and full apos, which were at mind boggling costs (I recall the Vixen Atlux 6" ED refractor was around £4000-5000 all in, and bigger Televue scopes were if anything even dearer).

It was when Celestron and Synta began to offer their ED100 4" F9 scopes at far more affordable prices that I began to really take notice, and over the early 2000s onwards I owned several of these great scopes..the build quality was not in the same league as the Vixen SP102 etc...but the ED glass was excellent, and you could now get a relatively short F9 4" visually virtually colour free scope at a far lower price than ever before.

As my family circumstances and finances improved, I was able to aspire to scopes like the wonderful Vixen ED and FL ranges (always bought used), and I also began to crave a bit more aperture..

I had a very nice Meade AR 127 F9 achromat, which was excellent for the cost, and I came to feel that a 5" refractor, for me, would be all I could ever want. But the introduction to ED glass also made me want colour free 5" viewing.

I did buy a wonderful 5" D&G F15 refractor, which I significantly upgraded, and it was the first scope I ever spent over £1000 on, including all the mods (done superbly by Mark Turner at Moonraker). This scope, now quite familiar to some members here on SGL, "Andromeda" was and is a superb performer, very nearly visually colour free, at F15 (1905mm!!), and could have been my lifetime scope.

Sadly, however, I had to let her go due to the physical difficulty of mounting her properly (almost 2m long), and the fact that I was diagnosed with 2 hernias (not the scope's fault!). 

So Andromeda found a great new home with Steve (@saganite) here on SGL, and I began to look for a more manageable high quality 5" refractor (once you've looked through a good 5", it is HARD to go back to a 4"!😊).

And so it was that, having read everything I could about Takahashi's legendary FS Fluorite range, I decided to set my sights on one. After quite some time (there aren't that many in the UK so far as I know,), a beautiful, mint example became available in summer 2016, complete with Takahashi EM2s mount and tripod and accessories. 

I never dreamed I could buy this wonderful set up, but thanks to the owner's willingness to hold the scope for me for as long as I needed to raise the funds, my dream scope become mine in April 2017. It took me a full 9 months to raise the funds, and involved selling most of my other astro equipment, but I have never once regretted the purchase, and, sad old git that I am, I too still pop into the storage room where "Trinity" lives (yes, I named her too!🤣) to have a quick peek and a touch..

Thanks for staying with me..my real point is, that 30-40 years ago, the pinnacle of my astro dreams was a Vixen 4" F10 achromat..scopes like the FS 128 either didn't exist in my universe, or if they did, were only found in observatories belonging to super rich people or organisations.

Since that time, financial means and availability of superbly performing scopes has pushed our aspirations upwards: I have friends who, having owned a 125cc motorbike in the 70s/80s, have now, in their 50s and 60s, returned to biking, spending £15k-£20k on a brand new Ducati, Triumph, etc - simply because they now have the means to..and be side they are now within their financial reach - families grown up, mortgages paid off, perhaps a legacy received (I wish!!) etc..

People will always aspire to the best they can afford if their means allow it.

I feel so blessed to now own my dream scope. If I never own another scope but this one, I will be quite content..it took almost 50 years from my first scope, but was so worth the wait!🤗😊

Dave

Is this ever a dream scope! don’t get me wrong I absolutely love my 4” but I yearn for a Tak mount and a dark stained wood tripod, exactly like what you have in this image. Your combo looks like the poster child for the refractor telescope, a beautiful matching ensemble which screams quality.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sunshine

[F15Rules]

Thanks, Sunshine😊.

I do have to confess that I no longer have the original  dark wood tripod..I found it not quite stable enough for the FS128 (I think it was originally recommended for scopes up to 4", such as the FS102).

Trinity now sits on a much more beefy home built (not by me!) fixed height tripod with Berlebach spreader/eyepiece holder.

I can't deny that the original tripod was pretty though!👍.

Dave

Edited November 29, 2021 by F15Rules

[Mr Spock]

2 hours ago, F15Rules said:

My first proper scope, a Prinz 550 60mm F15 refractor from Dixon's Photographic store in Coventry, cost £39.95 in c 1972. At the time that was about a weeks wages for my dad

Exactly the same scope, price, date and circumstances for me too. I eventually sold it for £27.50 to pay for driving lessons.

[Franklin]

6 minutes ago, F15Rules said:

Trinity

What's the production date on your FS-128 Dave? I just got it's baby brother the FS-78 and it looks exactly the same (but smaller), mine's 2004.

[F15Rules]

Hi Tim,

My FS128 is a 1999 build..the mount is a 1998. It's a similar quoted load capacity to a Vixen GPDX (c 10kg), but as with most Tak mounts they are quite conservatively rated. 

The scope is 7.5kg bare bones, with finder and eyepiece c 8.5-9kg, and a binoviewer pushes it up to around 9.5-10kg..absolutely fine for visual, but probably a bit much for imaging (I'm visual only).

Dave

[Franklin]

5 minutes ago, F15Rules said:

My FS128 is a 1999 build..the mount is a 1998.

Thanks Dave, I've got loads of questions to ask about these classic old Taks, but they will have to wait for another day, as I don't want to hijack John's thread.👍