Baader Zoom or Fixed FL EP for Planets?

[PeterC65]

I've been using the Baader Zoom at 8mm to observe Jupiter and Saturn though my Skymax 127. The view is good but could be sharper I feel. I can see a couple of dark bands across Jupiter but not the Great Red Spot. I can't pick out any detail on Saturn or see the Cassini division. It's been the same story each time I've observed the planets (on different nights).

After quite a wait I finally received the Barlow for the Baader Zoom. This makes things bigger but no more clear. So I'm wondering whether a fixed FL EP for planetary observation might make an improvement?

The ones I have in mind are:

• Baader Morpheus 76° 6.5mm
• Explore Scientific 82º 6.7mm
• OVL Nirvana-ES UWA 82º 7mm

These should all give me a little more magnification than the Baader Zoom alone at 8mm while not exceeding what is sensible for the scope, and they should give me a little more FoV.

Does anyone have a view about how there EPs compare with the Baader Zoom? Is the view I'm seeing limited by the EP, or by the scope / conditions / my lack of observing experience?

 

[Zermelo]

I don't have the Baader zoom, but my (relatively inexperienced) observations with similar kit may be of use.

Of course, one of the hard limits on the resolution is the aperture (which is actually around 120mm for the Skymax, due to internal obstructions).

I also have the Skymax 127, and I've viewed the giants several times this year, with BST Starguider 5mm and 8mm, a Celestron Ultima Edge 10mm and with the ES 82º 6.7mm you mention. On better nights with Jupiter I can see orange NEB and SEB clearly, and 2-3 further bands beyond them, less distinctly. When seeing is good, the equatorial belts have obviously uneven edges, though I've yet to see "barges" as such. I can also see some detail at the equator, between the bands. I've yet to see the GRS, though based on the detail that I have seen, I think it would be possible on a really good night, when it's in the right place of course. Of the EPs above I think the ES and Celestron probably give the best views.

On Saturn, I have just about seen the Cassini division on the best nights, and some very faint banding on the globe. On average nights, neither is visible to me. Saturn needs higher mag than Jupiter.

I've more recently obtained BCO 10mm and 6mm EPs, but haven't used them enough yet to have a settled view. But a brief session in average conditions gave some nice sharp views with the 10mm, but the 6mm just blew it up without adding anything.

As you realize, the conditions are often the real limitation. Also, I'm observing the southern horizon between and over nearby houses, less than ideal.

In a few years' time, when they're higher up, it will be a different story I hope.

[Franklin]

I have the Baader zoom and barlow and fixed length orthoscopics. When viewing the gas planets, which are not favourably placed at the moment, both the zoom and fixed length eyepieces can give very good, high contrast views. Some nights the planets look etched with fine detail, pinpoint shadow transits and the GRS all on show. But then on other nights it's just mush, regardless of the eyepieces used. It's all down to the seeing conditions and the fact the planets are low down Peter. Don't get disheartened, the Baader Zoom and Hyperion x2.25 barlow have excellent optics. People new to observing always want to see the planets first, because they are bright and easy to find, but in fact planerary observation is probably the most difficult form of telescopic observation there is. Unless you're experiencing unusually good seeing at your particular observing site, planetary observation demands huge amounts of patience. Staying concentrated at the eyepiece for hours just waiting for those miraculous moments when the sky goes still and all the planetary detail just stands out and smacks you in the eye. Well worth waiting for IMO. 

[Highburymark]

GRS and Cassini should be achievable with your set up - and with the Baader zoom which is pretty decent quality, though orthoscopics would be a step up. Agree it’s all about waiting for a good night. 

[Franklin]

Hi Peter, your scope has quite a long focal length at 1500mm so even without the x2.25 barlow, the 8mm setting in your zoom is giving you x187. That's not bad really, there are few occasions when the seeing conditions in the UK, with all our wild, unsettled weather, will justify much more unfortunately. Saturn will take a bit more than Jupiter but I think it would pay to stick with the zoom at 8mm tops and be patient while waiting for better seeing conditions to come your way. One thing I do is, when the planets are up, is to look for the Cassini Division. If it's not even slightly visible then that tells me the seeing conditions are not good enough for planetary observations, so I will spend my observing time taking in some of the brighter Messier objects, asterisms and double stars instead.

[Tiny Clanger]

Similar  experience to Zermelo here , I have the 127 mak and BST 8mm & 12mm, and 6mm Baader ortho as my planetary use eyepieces in it.

I've spent as much time looking at Jupiter and Saturn as possible, some nights the 12mm (125x)  is OK but not the 8mm(187.5x) , best views have been on a very few nights of steady seeing, on one of which the 8mm's 187.5x showed me an absolutely stunning sharp black groove of a Cassini Division in Saturn's rings, and I could make out the swirling shapes within the coloured bands on Jupiter, and even pushed the mag. to 250x with the 6mm,( altho' that does also push the exit pupil  to 0.5mm  and therefore my eye floaters spoil the view as much as the atmosphere does, so not ideal )

It was a stunning few hours, my only gripe was that the GRS was round the back and out of sight at the time  😞

So, I'll agree, the seeing is probably most of the problem, I've no idea how long you are spending on each target, but persistence over an hour or more can give glimpses of better seeing , otherwise in the short term just hope for nights of great seeing this winter.

Heather

 

 

[PeterC65]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

The consensus seems to be that a fixed FL EP is unlikely to offer improvement over the Baader Zoom so I'll stick with what I have for now. It sounds like I should be able to see more detail with my current setup, perhaps when the gas giants are higher in the sky.

To answer Heather's question, I spend about 10 minutes observing each planet. I thought that was enough time to properly observe it but I hadn't considered that slowly changing atmospheric conditions might make it worthwhile waiting to see if things improve over a longer period. Obvious I suppose when you think about it! So next time I will observe for longer.

I've had issues getting a sharp focus on the gas giants. It's made it hard to tell whether the fuzziness I was seeing was down to poor focus or poor seeing. I had considered trying to fit an electric focus motor to the Skymax 127 but have given up on that as it would be very Heath Robinson. Instead I've made a clothes peg that nicely fits the focus knob and should allow me to gently nudge the focus in future, hopefully without wobbling the scope!

[heliumstar]

Same experience here as well with 127 and 102 Maksutov. The best views I get in the UK are ~120x with both. ~130x+ is already 'mushy'. The same with 80mm and below refractors. The seeing just doesn't allow for more magnification most of the time. I have Baader Zoom and Vixen SLVs and no real difference apart from SLVs being just slightly more comfortable.

Edited November 7, 2021 by heliumstar
spelling

[Tiny Clanger]

47 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

Thanks for the advice everyone.

The consensus seems to be that a fixed FL EP is unlikely to offer improvement over the Baader Zoom so I'll stick with what I have for now. It sounds like I should be able to see more detail with my current setup, perhaps when the gas giants are higher in the sky.

To answer Heather's question, I spend about 10 minutes observing each planet. I thought that was enough time to properly observe it but I hadn't considered that slowly changing atmospheric conditions might make it worthwhile waiting to see if things improve over a longer period. Obvious I suppose when you think about it! So next time I will observe for longer.

I've had issues getting a sharp focus on the gas giants. It's made it hard to tell whether the fuzziness I was seeing was down to poor focus or poor seeing. I had considered trying to fit an electric focus motor to the Skymax 127 but have given up on that as it would be very Heath Robinson. Instead I've made a clothes peg that nicely fits the focus knob and should allow me to gently nudge the focus in future, hopefully without wobbling the scope!

The clothes peg mod.works for me 🙂

To be able to observe for a longer period, I find it far easier to sit down, not only less strain on the back, but also easier to keep my eye in the right place.

Final  thought ... you are allowing plenty of cool down time for the 127 aren't you ? Mine lives in a room that has no radiator , but even in the summer the mak still needs at least half an hour to cool down and avoid air dancing around in the tube and adding to any turbulence in the atmosphere.

Heather

[PeterC65]

@Tiny Clanger I realised early on that sitting down is the thing to do. I had assumed I would be standing before I bought the scope. In fact I posted about the whole seating thing here.

I do allow the scope to cool. It's stored in a centrally heated room but I give it at least 30 minutes, while I'm working out what to observe using Stellarium. My observing sessions usually last a couple of hours by which time I assume the scope has cooled since I certainly have!

[Franklin]

1 hour ago, PeterC65 said:

It's made it hard to tell whether the fuzziness I was seeing was down to poor focus or poor seeing

Yes, that's the whole problem with planetary observation I'm afraid. A little trick, after your scope has cooled, set your zoom to 8mm, point the scope at a bright star field near the zenith and get pinpoint focus. Now find Jupiter or Saturn without altering focus. Another tip for Jupiter is to look at and focus on the moons rather than the planets disk itself. Avoid looking over rooftops, avoid looking over large areas of concrete, tarmac, roads etc. All these things release heat at night and create turbulence in the air, which ruins any chance of seeing planetary detail. Ideally you want to be in the middle of a field, in the middle of nowhere, away from lights, houses and civilisation in general! 🙂

[PeterC65]

16 minutes ago, Franklin said:

A little trick, after your scope has cooled, set your zoom to 8mm, point the scope at a bright star field near the zenith and get pinpoint focus. Now find Jupiter or Saturn without altering focus. Another tip for Jupiter is to look at and focus on the moons rather than the planets disk itself.

I'll give that a try next time, along with the clothes peg!

[SuburbanMak]

Hi @PeterC65   -

All great points above especially spending time at the eyepiece on the planets, on all but those rare nights seeing will come and go with sometimes 4 or 5 seconds of great seeing in an otherwise mediocre hour - I didn't cotton on to this until a few sessions had gone by. 

My main 'scope at the moment is the SW Mak127 and I have the Baader Mk IV zoom and a set of Baader Classic Orthos.  I'm in my first year of "proper" observing and have been out looking at the gas giants 20 or so times since June time, on only two of those occasions I got seeing that was dramatically better than all the other sessions and that made a much, much bigger difference in what I could resolve than any difference between the orthos and the zoom. 

Certainly the zoom is capable of giving great views although I find the BCO's are a bit better for contrast which helps on the many less than perfect nights.   (The BCOs are great on other targets too in the Mak, the 18mm in particular pulls the best detail I've seen out of DSOs and Barlows very well to 8mm with the 2.25x Barlow designed for the Zoom - at £48 I think they are amazing value, only wish they did more focal lengths!).   

The focussing point is another really good one, when the atmosphere is coming and going Jupiter in particular can be hard to focus on and to begin with I was constantly twiddling the focuser to no avail!  Picking a star or Jupiter's moons is a great tip. 

Over the course of the season I've seen the GRS well (although its a lower contrast feature than I was expecting), up to 6 bands on Jupiter + darkened polar regions, on the best night I could see detail in the edges of the bands and a darker "barge". I've watched a couple of transits one of which was very sharp, the other coming and going.  On Saturn I've found its often crisper than Jupiter and on the best nights the Mak can deliver the Cassini division, some subtle banding on the disc and 3 moons. I think my favourite Saturn feature is the shadow of the rings on the planet and vice versa - makes an almost 3D view.  

Over the last couple of weeks I've noticed the views are fading rapidly as the gas giants sink lower, like lots of others on here my southern view is over rooftops and seeing, disc-size and atmospheric CA are rapidly impeding the picture.  Already looking forward to more long planetary sessions in shirtsleeves next summer!  

 

[Tiny Clanger]

53 minutes ago, SuburbanMak said:

 the BCO's are a bit better for contrast which helps on the many less than perfect nights.   (The BCOs are great on other targets too in the Mak, the 18mm in particular pulls the best detail I've seen out of DSOs and Barlows very well to 8mm with the 2.25x Barlow designed for the Zoom - at £48 I think they are amazing value, only wish they did more focal lengths!).   

 

Good info, but (because I have one on my FLO wishlist) I note the BCO's are at the moment a rather less barginaceous £59 !

At £10 more than a BST (which is a far more substantial eyepiece, with more FOV and eye relief and a sensible twist up eyecup) the BCOs seem rather less of a great buy than they used to !

Heather

[SuburbanMak]

1 hour ago, Tiny Clanger said:

Good info, but (because I have one on my FLO wishlist) I note the BCO's are at the moment a rather less barginaceous £59 !

At £10 more than a BST (which is a far more substantial eyepiece, with more FOV and eye relief and a sensible twist up eyecup) the BCOs seem rather less of a great buy than they used to !

Heather

@Tiny Clanger Fair enough Heather,  I note that a few places still have them at £49 (Harrison) or £52 (RVO) so now might be a good time to hoover up old stock  

BSTs get great reviews, for me though "substantial" = weight, & doing a lot with classic refractors with droopy old drawtubes, weight is bad!   Build quality on the BCOs is lovely, all metal and nicely finished. 

I'm lucky in that I seem to get on ok with shorter eye relief & bought the BCOs as part of a "minimum glass" set-up. Happened to end up using the BCOs in the Mak too & found them excellent.   

I'm looking for more Orthos in other fls to give a convenient range of mags, specifically 12.5mm, 25mm, 5mm & 4mm.   

Thinking about the Starbase range or ponying up for a Tak Abbe and seeing if it lives up to the price...  

Edited November 8, 2021 by SuburbanMak

[Franklin]

I had the BSTs and they are the standout upgrade eyepiece from the stock ones supplied with scopes. They offer a wider field of view and are very comfortable to use but when it comes to planetary observation the BCOs offer much better performance if you can handle the reduced eye relief. With bright targets such as Jupiter there was ghosting in the BSTs and internal reflections.

[Tiny Clanger]

18 minutes ago, Franklin said:

I had the BSTs and they are the standout upgrade eyepiece from the stock ones supplied with scopes. They offer a wider field of view and are very comfortable to use but when it comes to planetary observation the BCOs offer much better performance if you can handle the reduced eye relief. With bright targets such as Jupiter there was ghosting in the BSTs and internal reflections.

I've genuinely seen no ghosting or internal reflections in my 8mm BST, which is my principal ep in the 127 mak for planets and the Moon, or my 12mm BST. I've used it plenty of times for white light solar too, and if any reflections or ghosting were going to show I'd imagine that would be the time.  Never owned or used a 5mm BST, though,  too small an ext pupil in the mak for me.

I've directly compared the 6mm BCO by swapping back & forth against a £30 6mm TMB clone, looking at lunar detail in the mak at 250x , and I prefer the TMB. That's what my eyes tell  me, in my set-up. Maybe my BCO is a lemon that slipped through QC unnoticed ,maybe your unsatisfactory BST was ?

[wulfrun]

I've accumulated a few hours looking at Jupiter & Saturn over recent months and concur with the above. Focus on the moons or a nearby star then leave the focus alone and watch and wait. If there's a lack of detail, it's almost certain to be atmosphere (unless it's a rubbish EP) and hard luck, no point fiddling with focus since you'll probably make things worse. Give up if bad enough or sit patiently for the fleeting moments of clarity. Patience is required! I can usually get up to 130-150x mag and sometimes a bit more (and sometimes less!). Rare to get much higher without it all going mushy but it can happen.

[RT65CB-SWL]

When I observe the planets for extended periods to get more detail, then I stick to a fixed focal length...
unless I am using the TeleVue 3-6mm Nagler zoom.

[SuburbanMak]

17 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

I've genuinely seen no ghosting or internal reflections in my 8mm BST, which is my principal ep in the 127 mak for planets and the Moon, or my 12mm BST. I've used it plenty of times for white light solar too, and if any reflections or ghosting were going to show I'd imagine that would be the time.  Never owned or used a 5mm BST, though,  too small an ext pupil in the mak for me.

I've directly compared the 6mm BCO by swapping back & forth against a £30 6mm TMB clone, looking at lunar detail in the mak at 250x , and I prefer the TMB. That's what my eyes tell  me, in my set-up. Maybe my BCO is a lemon that slipped through QC unnoticed ,maybe your unsatisfactory BST was ?

On the BCOs I have got much more use out of the 18mm & 10mm than the 6mm - both of the longer Fls also Barlow well to 8 & 4.4mm respectively -  eye relief seems to improve over the 6mm.   (Having said that, on the odd very still night the 6mm was great on the planets and works beautifully on the moon & doubles in my ever growing collection of ancient small 'fracs...).  I think EP choice is always going to be a highly subjective business, all part of the fun  

[Franklin]

14 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

Maybe my BCO is a lemon that slipped through QC unnoticed ,maybe your unsatisfactory BST was ?

Yes, good point. Another thing is eye position. There have been times, when viewing brighter objects, when I get a reflection back off my eye and see it in the eyepiece. It kind of flies about like a firefly. I'm not being over critical of the BSTs, I think they are a great eyepiece range, a best buy IMO. I think the relections I have seen are just a consiquence of their multi-element design. For me, for planetary at least, I prefer a minimum glass approach as @SuburbanMak states above.

[PeterC65]

3 hours ago, SuburbanMak said:

I have the Baader Mk IV zoom and a set of Baader Classic Orthos.

@SuburbanMak Can I ask, why do you have both the Baader Zoom and the BCO's? Originally I was thinking that the Baader Zoom, while expensive, would perform as well as a set of fixed FL EPs. I do like the Zoom, it's well made, convenient, and seems to perform well, although I don't have much to compare it with! The only other EP I have is a 40mm Celestron Omni which I bought to get the maximum possible FOV from the Skymax 127 and to give a big exit pupil (which seems to be useful when using filters). I'm just wondering now if I'm missing something by not having fixed FL EPs. For observing planets the advice so far seems to be that the Zoom is just fine, but maybe there are benefits of going for fixed FL EPs for other objects.

[Franklin]

3 minutes ago, SuburbanMak said:

On the BCOs I have got much more use out of the 18mm & 10mm than the 6mm

Totally agree.

But back to the OP's original question, I doubt there will be much improvement from the eyepieces listed, apart from increased FOV, which for planetary isn't really necessary.

[PeterC65]

2 hours ago, Tiny Clanger said:

I note the BCO's are at the moment a rather less barginaceous £59 !

@Tiny Clanger The prices for all Baader kit at FLO have increased in the last few days by between 15% and 35%!! RVO still seem to be holding the old prices, for now. I think if I do get some fixed FL EPs, the BSTs will be prime candidates.

 

[Franklin]

Having a zoom is convenient and also very useful. For quick impromptu views between the clouds and for evaluating the best magnification to use for extended viewing. Great in the solar wedge too.