Moving from Red Dot Finder

[Puffafish]

I have been content for the past couple of years using my "beginners scope" of a Skywatcher 130P, with the stock eye pieces plus a 7mm.

There have always been two very strong opinions about this scope and set up: "get new EPs" and "replace the red dot finder".

I've had a go with different EPs, but I've not really had brilliant viewing for them yet.

But the other big opinion of replacing the Red Dot Finder I haven't tested at all. What do people advise I replace it with? I'm guessing that finder scopes are the usual response, but I've yet to find anything suitable for sale (FLO sells some, but they seem to be higher spec'ed that my main scope!)

[banjaxed]

I find the Telrad finder is great for getting in the general area and a finder scope for pinpointing your target

[Mick H]

1 hour ago, Puffafish said:

replace the red dot finder

Yep agree with banjaxed about the Telrad finder, it is great on my 8se butt................... It's big.

For your scope you might want to look at the rigel quick finder: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/finders/rigel-quikfinder-compact-reflex-sight.html

 

[Captain Scarlet]

Personally I find that the stock plastic RDF as supplied with many scopes is perfectly fine. I still use it attached to my skymax 180.

M

[Orange Smartie]

Agree with Captain Magenta. I have an RDF on my Heritage 150p and find it perfectly adequate.  

[Tiny Clanger]

On 04/11/2021 at 19:51, Puffafish said:

I have been content for the past couple of years using my "beginners scope" of a Skywatcher 130P, with the stock eye pieces plus a 7mm.

There have always been two very strong opinions about this scope and set up: "get new EPs" and "replace the red dot finder".

I've had a go with different EPs, but I've not really had brilliant viewing for them yet.

But the other big opinion of replacing the Red Dot Finder I haven't tested at all. What do people advise I replace it with? I'm guessing that finder scopes are the usual response, but I've yet to find anything suitable for sale (FLO sells some, but they seem to be higher spec'ed that my main scope!)

The answer is .... that  depends !

What do you want from a finder that the stock RDF doesn't give you ?  How do you use the RDF ? What sort of targets are you interested in ?

Heather

[Elp]

+1 for Rigel quikfinder, can see it with both eyes open too and gauge distances via the two circles.

[Zermelo]

10 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

The answer is .... that  depends

Yes.
I bought a 150mm reflector that came with a cheap RDF. I swapped out the RDF for an optical finder (8x30 at first, upgraded to a 9x50), and added a Telrad to replace the RDF (at the back end for balancing reasons, which is not the ideal place).

The Telrad/Rigel+optical finder combination (plus a long FL eyepiece) is favoured by many as the optimal combination for finding targets, and if you're manually star-hopping in reasonably dark skies, I'd agree. But mine is on a goto mount and I use the Skysafari app when observing, so after a year using it, I've settled into a routine of using the goto initially (usually pushed) and then matching the starfield in the optical finder with the Skysafari display, and nudging from the phone if necessary to the correct position. I use the Telrad at the start of the session when I'm aligning, but I don't need the rings for that, so an RDF would do the job. After setting up I don't normally use the Telrad at all, unless the target is a naked eye object; or very occasionally when the tech throws a wobbly.

I didn't know in advance that this was how I'd be working; you may have a better idea now than I did.

PS if you do get an optical finder, I'd recommend paying the extra for a RACI version, especially if you're using paper charts. AstroEssentials are a decent price.

[Broadymike]

+1 for the rigel/telrad and using together with a 9x50 RACI finder. Having the circles on the rigel really helps with star hopping and getting in the right general area and the RACI is great for zeroing in more precisely. Using the RACI has 2 advantages over a lot of normal finders. First is it is far more comfortable to use than a straight through finder and 2nd it keeps everything in the same orientation as the rigel which makes the locating process far more intuitive. 

[woldsman]

Have tried all 3. Rigel quikfinder v easy to use and align on a reflector or refractor. RDF ditto on a DSLR flash shoe although much less accurate. Telrad harder to get on with. It is big, trickier to mount, tougher to align, and (IME) suffers more from dew issues. On the plus side, it’s weight does help balance the Tal 100RS I use on a HEQ5 mount. The Telrad helps with star alignment at the start if a goto session. I have the Rigel on a 200P and an alt-az mount. Manual routine is align everything then it’s Rigel, right angle finder scope, largest eyepiece to locate DSOs. 

[Starslayer]

+ 1 for the Telrad but yes it is largish. I find it so easy to use and VEERY accurate for what I need. 

[Puffafish]

On 06/11/2021 at 16:16, Tiny Clanger said:

The answer is .... that  depends !

What do you want from a finder that the stock RDF doesn't give you ?  How do you use the RDF ? What sort of targets are you interested in ?

Heather

To be honest, I don't know what I want that the RDF doesn't provide. Every review I've seen of a scope with a RDF says that they'd replace the stock RFD, but no one can tell me why! Due to the lack of people I know with scopes, I'm asking for advice here!

The RDF does seem to do the job, but is a bit of a rough guide as to where the scope is pointing, even after I attempt to correct it (usually using Polaris). I'd seen a few things where people suggest a finder scope as a replacement, but I don't seem to see finder scopes in the sub-£70 price range.

So advice seems to be Telrad or the Rigel quickfinder... I have wondered about the Sky-Watcher's 9x50 Right-Angled Erecting Finderscope...

Is there a reason people aren't suggesting that?

I tend to look for the easy targets, as I'm just not that good at star hoppiy! Jupiter, Saturn, the moon (usually one of the easier to find) and the Orion Nebula and common things for me. Some day I hope to be able to find the Andromeda galaxy, which always seems to hide from me.

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Puffafish

[Zermelo]

12 hours ago, Puffafish said:

To be honest, I don't know what I want that the RDF doesn't provide. Every review I've seen of a scope with a RDF says that they'd replace the stock RFD, but no one can tell me why! Due to the lack of people I know with scopes, I'm asking for advice here!

The RDF does seem to do the job, but is a bit of a rough guide as to where the scope is pointing, even after I attempt to correct it (usually using Polaris). I'd seen a few things where people suggest a finder scope as a replacement, but I don't seem to see finder scopes in the sub-£70 price range.

So advice seems to be Telrad or the Rigel quickfinder... I have wondered about the Sky-Watcher's 9x50 Right-Angled Erecting Finderscope...

Is there a reason people aren't suggesting that?

I tend to look for the easy targets, as I'm just not that good at star hoppiy! Jupiter, Saturn, the moon (usually one of the easier to find) and the Orion Nebula and common things for me. Some day I hope to be able to find the Andromeda galaxy, which always seems to hide from me.

 

 

 

They are different animals.

The RDF, Telrad and Rigel don't magnify and they don't gather more light than your eye can see unaided. So their use is limited in badly-light-polluted skies.

An optical finder (of which the RACI is a variant) (a) gathers more light, which means you can see stars that you can't with the naked eye, and (b) magnifies the view, so you can point the scope with more precision.

The reasons for replacing a stock RDF are (a) they are often cheap and hard to use precisely, so there are better RDFs, and (b) replacing the RDF with a Telrad or Rigel gives you a set of circles of known angular size, which you can use to "star hop" to a target.

So, you may get value (in two ways) in replacing the stock RDF with a Rigel/Telrad, and you get a different advantage in adding (not replacing with) an optical finder.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Zermelo
typo

[Louis D]

A quick comparison of the Telrad versus the QuikFinder after decades of using both:

• Telrad has basically no parallax issues between the circles and the sky, so your head can bob around.  The QuikFinder has a bit of parallax, so the circles drift a little across the sky as your head bobs around.  You need to keep your head centered with the QF's window.
• Telrad circles are much easier to acquire than the QuikFinder circles.  I don't know if it is because they are thinner (which they are), the window is smaller, or what, but I'm always having trouble locating the QF's circles.  The Telrad is much less frustrating to use in that respect.
• Telrad circles won't pulse without an add-on.  This is built into the QuikFinder.  However, I don't find this difference to be at all a big deal.
• Telrad is huge and best for bigger Dobs.  QuikFinder is diminutive, so well suited to smaller scopes.
• Telrad dimmer switch tends to become a non-dimmable switch over time.  The QuikFinder switches seem quite stable over decades.
• Telrad AA batteries should be regularly replaced to avoid irreversible corrosion damage to the internals.  Simply replacing the battery holder doesn't fix the damage done.  The CR2025 lithium button cell in my QuikFinder is still going strong after 20+ years with no leakage.
• Telrad has a 4 degree outer circle.  QuikFinder stops at 2 degrees.  That extra circle is very useful in light polluted skies where stars visible to the naked eye tend to be more sparse.
• Attaching the Telrad to its base is a bit fiddly in the dark.  I simply can't tell if it is seated all the way without turning on a light.  You think you've backed out the locking screws enough for it to drop in when in fact you haven't.  The QuikFinder has a tab and a click-lock that are impossible to screw up in the dark.

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

When starting out, I found locating objects with the 130P improved significantly after retaining the cheapo plastic rdf, then buying a 9x50 right angled correct image finderscope and mounting them both on a double finder bracket. I've tried a 6x30 finder but at home the light pollution reduces its effectiveness.

[Carbon Brush]

Finders are a personal choice.🤔 You may have noticed that from the differing opinions in this thread😄

For what it is worth I have used, or still own Rigel, Telrad, 30mm & 50mm finders in straight, right angle and RACI varieties, and the odd 60mm finder.
The 'best' finder depends on the scope and (more important) your preferences. Clearly a 60mm finder is a big lump on a 130P!
On one scope, I have a Rigel, 50mm finder and trialling a 60mm.
A big dob has a telrad + 50mm finder.

If I had a 130P, I would try fitting a 30mm right angle finder. As it happens I already have one, so it would be a no risk trial.

In terms of you buying one, it is not a huge expense. In addition it is transferable to your next scope.
Keep an eye on the SGL classified and when something comes up, go for it.
If you don't like it, you can probably sell it on for only postage loss.

HTH, David.

 

[cajen2]

Just for anyone who hasn't bought a dob yet, don't go supposing that these finder upgrades are possible on any design.....I found this to my cost when trying to upgrade the RDF on my Heritage 150p Flextube, as documented on my thread "Stupid, stupid".

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/386339-stupid-stupid/

Edited November 19, 2021 by cajen2
Added link

[Carbon Brush]

Yes perhaps I should have qualified my post by saying it may be necessary to take a drill to the scope tube for certain finder and scope combinations.
Alternatively a finder can be added to a ring around the tube. Skywatcher put camera thread fittings on refractor rings for example.
Or a 1 to 3 finder bracket. Or a DIY foot adapter, 3D printed.
It all depends on the circumstances.
There is always a solution.👍 But not always a simple no-tools fit.🤨

HTH, David.