HEQ5 Pro PC Control

[centroid]

I have an HEQ5 PRO Synscan mount, and it works fine with either the Hand Controller, or an EQ Direct connection to the PC and Cart du Ciel, but not in 'PC Direct Mode', with the Hand Controller in series via its USB connection.

There appears to be a lot of discussion about this on the web, but no definitive answers.

My mount is located remotely from my operating position (in the summer house), and when setting up, it would be very convenient to be able to move the mount  (Alt & Az) while by the mount, with it still linked to the PC, and 'talking' to Cart du Ciel.

It was never a problem back in my previous astro imaging days, as everything was in one place, in an observatory.

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by centroid
typo

[ONIKKINEN]

For the EQM35, which also has a printer type USB on the hand controller you have to NOT use PC direct. As far as i understand PC direct is used to update firmware and not much more.

 

You will need to install prolific USB drivers which your PC may or may not be able to do for you, it did not for me. Plug the cable in after the mount is powered on, or you might get a "both axis no response" error and the motors wont spin.

 

I use mine this way. The hand controller works and everything is being reported to my PC, so NINA knows where the mount is when i manually slew or initiate go-tos with the hand controller. I dont have the EQmod in there anywhere with this method and dont know if thats possible, if you want to use it.

[AstroMuni]

I know this is not the direct answer to the OPs question, but Platesolving after you have moved the mount manually should allow Cart du Ciel or other software to figure out what you have done.

[centroid]

21 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

For the EQM35, which also has a printer type USB on the hand controller you have to NOT use PC direct. As far as i understand PC direct is used to update firmware and not much more.

 

You will need to install prolific USB drivers which your PC may or may not be able to do for you, it did not for me. Plug the cable in after the mount is powered on, or you might get a "both axis no response" error and the motors wont spin.

 

I use mine this way. The hand controller works and everything is being reported to my PC, so NINA knows where the mount is when i manually slew or initiate go-tos with the hand controller. I dont have the EQmod in there anywhere with this method and dont know if thats possible, if you want to use it.

Hmm!, it would seem that I can't easily achieve what I am trying to do, along with great many other people worldwide too, a real 'pain in the butt', to put it mildly. 

Unlike when I had an Obsy,  apart from the pier, I have to set up, each time I want to use it. The mount is not left out on the pier, but put away, along with the scope.  The pier adapter stays on the pier, and both the adapter, and mount are marked that they are aligned in the same Az position, and of course the Dec remains locked in position.

However, its is almost impossible to carry out a star alignment from the PC in the summer house, without moving the mount with Cart du Ciel (EQDirect), going out to look through the finder scope, back to the PC, move the mount a bit more,..................................and so on. I have had several goes at this, in the end, my patience runs out, I give up, and go back indoors.

[StevieDvd]

Have you considered using the Synscan wifi connection? That will let you use an app on your phone (and your indoor pc) to move the mount whilst still having it connected to other controlling software.  If you are handy with a soldering iron you can also make the diy equivalent of the  wifi unit as the synscan app is free.

[Tomatobro]

I used to do exactly what you are trying to do with star alignment and my brother convinced me to try plate solving. There is no way I would ever go back to visual alignment.

Procedure

Turn on the PC and mount, C du Ceil and connect to the mount. From the parked position, unpark and set tracking to sidereal. Use FIND in C du Ceil (for the object to view) and click on slew. The scope will slew close to but not on the object. Open Sharpcap and select the camera, set the exposure so you have some stars and click on plate solve. Within 30 or 40 seconds the mount will slew to the target and the target is always in the centre.

All this from my armchair using remote desktop

[chewie]

Same as Tom above but with Stellarium and APT, I've found little use for any controlling through Stellarium though, Point craft in APT using GOTO++ and plate solving will have you perfectly aligned inside a few minutes, sync it, and if I'm looking for something random to point the scope at then I can go through Stellarium for best/time direction for my location.

[ONIKKINEN]

3 hours ago, centroid said:

Hmm!, it would seem that I can't easily achieve what I am trying to do, along with great many other people worldwide too, a real 'pain in the butt', to put it mildly. 

Unlike when I had an Obsy,  apart from the pier, I have to set up, each time I want to use it. The mount is not left out on the pier, but put away, along with the scope.  The pier adapter stays on the pier, and both the adapter, and mount are marked that they are aligned in the same Az position, and of course the Dec remains locked in position.

However, its is almost impossible to carry out a star alignment from the PC in the summer house, without moving the mount with Cart du Ciel (EQDirect), going out to look through the finder scope, back to the PC, move the mount a bit more,..................................and so on. I have had several goes at this, in the end, my patience runs out, I give up, and go back indoors.

Do you platesolve? Its a blessing. I have never star aligned since.

[centroid]

2 hours ago, StevieDvd said:

Have you considered using the Synscan wifi connection? That will let you use an app on your phone (and your indoor pc) to move the mount whilst still having it connected to other controlling software.  If you are handy with a soldering iron you can also make the diy equivalent of the  wifi unit as the synscan app is free.

Not yet, but its on my list of things to try. It will have to be a random area of sky, as I can't see the Polar Region.

23 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Do you platesolve? Its a blessing. I have never star aligned since.

 

[centroid]

2 hours ago, StevieDvd said:

Have you considered using the Synscan wifi connection? That will let you use an app on your phone (and your indoor pc) to move the mount whilst still having it connected to other controlling software.  If you are handy with a soldering iron you can also make the diy equivalent of the  wifi unit as the synscan app is free.

That is an option Stevie. Long since retired, but after a 40 year career in electonic and radio frequency engineering, I think I'm still able to use a soldering iron 🙂.

I will have a look at what is needed.

[Starflyer]

As others have said there's no need for star alignment any more, I can't remember the last time I had a finder fitted to either of my scopes, platesolving will handle everything for you.

 

[malc-c]

23 hours ago, centroid said:

I have an HEQ5 PRO Synscan mount, and it works fine with either the Hand Controller, or an EQ Direct connection to the PC and Cart du Ciel, but not in 'PC Direct Mode', with the Hand Controller in series via its USB connection.

 

 

When you connect the handset to the PC via USB, and place the handset in PC-DIRECT mode you should see a new com port appear in Device manager (much the same way as when you connect an EQDIR cable).  By default the baud rate is set to 9600.  Try changing this to 115200 and see if you can control the mount (once you configure EQMOD / GSServer to use that same com port).  I have to ask though, if you can control the mount using an EQDIR cable why would you want to do the same via the handset in PC-DIRECT mode ?

[StevieDvd]

PA (alignment) is being done - so needs to be at the mount but normal usage is remote. Hence if the wifi dongle works from the house it can also be used with the SynScan app to align at the mount.

SW wifi is around £60 though I know a diy can be done have not done this myself.

[pete_l]

On 26/10/2021 at 12:44, centroid said:

it works fine with either the Hand Controller, or an EQ Direct connection to the PC and Cart du Ciel, but not in 'PC Direct Mode',

This is something I have been fiddlin' wih recently on a different mount: an Ioptron SmartEQ Pro.

First, my experience with an HEQ5 / EQDirect taught me that the correct level (voltage) is necessary when communicating with the mount. If this is wrong, the mount won't "hear" the data being sent to it. Since EQ Direct works with levels of 0V and +5V that tells me that the handset is also using those voltages. So the handset and the EQ Direct will both work.

However the signals that I have to use to plug my serial port into the (Ioptron 8408) handset are different. Instead of being "TTL" level signals: 0 volts and +5, the handset requires something different: RS232 levels.

Many people use the term RS232 as meaning serial communications. But there is a subtle difference. First, the voltages are different. My handset requires negative 5 volts and plus 5 volt signals. Also, the sense of the signals is inverted to what the EQ Direct cable sends. 0's are 1's and vice-versa. The simple answer for me, has been to connect the output from my USB to serial converter - an FTDI232 (actually a knock-off, but that's another story) to a MAX232 interface chip that is especially designed to convert the TTL signals into proper RS232.

I would not try plugging my MAX232 chip directly into a mount in place of an EQ Direct cable. The voltage difference could cause damage, but the signals are definitely inverted and therefore won't work.

[malc-c]

1 hour ago, pete_l said:

This is something I have been fiddlin' wih recently on a different mount: an Ioptron SmartEQ Pro.

First, my experience with an HEQ5 / EQDirect taught me that the correct level (voltage) is necessary when communicating with the mount. If this is wrong, the mount won't "hear" the data being sent to it. Since EQ Direct works with levels of 0V and +5V that tells me that the handset is also using those voltages. So the handset and the EQ Direct will both work.

However the signals that I have to use to plug my serial port into the (Ioptron 8408) handset are different. Instead of being "TTL" level signals: 0 volts and +5, the handset requires something different: RS232 levels.

Many people use the term RS232 as meaning serial communications. But there is a subtle difference. First, the voltages are different. My handset requires negative 5 volts and plus 5 volt signals. Also, the sense of the signals is inverted to what the EQ Direct cable sends. 0's are 1's and vice-versa. The simple answer for me, has been to connect the output from my USB to serial converter - an FTDI232 (actually a knock-off, but that's another story) to a MAX232 interface chip that is especially designed to convert the TTL signals into proper RS232.

I would not try plugging my MAX232 chip directly into a mount in place of an EQ Direct cable. The voltage difference could cause damage, but the signals are definitely inverted and therefore won't work.

 

Using a true RS232 adapter will indeed fry the motor boards of most modern mounts if it is used as an EQDIR cable.  True RS232 voltage levels are typically +/- 12v.  The FTDI232 devices operate at 3.3v or 5v, but this is only applicable if you are making your own EQDIR cable.  All commercial EQDIR cables use the 5v version of this chipset.

The interface of older versions of handsets that use the serial cable (long grey cable with a 9 way D type connector at one end and phone line connector at the other) when in PC Direct mode can be used with a standard  RS232 to USB adapter as the handset has a MAX232 chip inside it which handles the conversion to TTL levels into the processors.  Modern handsets have a USB port on them, so can use a standard USB A-B cable for a direct connection to a PC.  These new handsets have the USB to 5v TTL serial adapters built in, this may be the Prolific 2302 chipset rather than FTDI, which also may be the reason why the OP is having issues with this method of connection.  Windows dropped support for the Prolific chipset when windows 10 came out, and as such the comport driver needs to be downloaded and installed manually.  However until the OP explains what method of connection they are using between the PC and the Handset this may be irrelevant, and as I asked, if they are using an EQDIR cable then I personally can't see the point in making the connection via the handset in PC direct mode.

[centroid]

8 hours ago, malc-c said:

 I have to ask though, if you can control the mount using an EQDIR cable why would you want to do the same via the handset in PC-DIRECT mode ?

Because the PC is in the summer house, 5m way from the pier/mount, and it would be useful to be able to carry out initial setting up/alignment while at the pier, and move the mount to centre the object in the finder, which is aligned withe scope.

If it worked with hand controller in series with PC, then I could return to summer house, and Sync the mount with Cartes du Ciel, and 'job done'

However, its all a bit irrelevant now, as I am going to use Plate Solving for alignment. Something that wasn't available 8 years ago, when I left the hobby. Back the then, we did it the old fashioned way, Visually polar align the mount, then Drift Align. Time consuming, but effective.

As I had an observatory back then, it only had to be done once.

[malc-c]

Dave, simply use a 5m active USB ext cable.  Plug the EQDIR cable into that which would give you 6.5- 7m between mount and PC in the summer house.  Or connect a hub to the active cable, and plug the EQDIR cable and any USB cameras into the hub...

Edited October 27, 2021 by malc-c

[pete_l]

14 hours ago, malc-c said:

when in PC Direct mode can be used with a standard  RS232 to USB adapter as the handset has a MAX232 chip inside it which handles the conversion to TTL levels into the processors.

Bear in mind the other issue: that MAX232 (and the later MAX3232) chips invert the sense of the data. The FTDI USB-Serial converters will not "understand" inverted data. Hence the need for a different setup between talking to a mount through the handset or directly with an EQ Direct cable.

[malc-c]

5 hours ago, pete_l said:

Bear in mind the other issue: that MAX232 (and the later MAX3232) chips invert the sense of the data. The FTDI USB-Serial converters will not "understand" inverted data. Hence the need for a different setup between talking to a mount through the handset or directly with an EQ Direct cable.

I didn't design the handset, so can say if the circuitry inverts the signals when the PC-DIRECT port is used as a means of connection to a PC's serial port  .  In my experience of testing and repairing motor boards, communication with the mount via the handset in PC DIRECT mode worked when the PC-DIRECT cable ( the one that looks like a telephone cable terminated with a D9 connector - NOT and EQDIR cable) was connected to either a Belking RS232/USB adaptor, or when connected direct to the COM1 port of an old PC.   It might well be that the Belkin USB/RS232 converter handled the inversion

These days there is little point in using this method.  You are effectively taking 5v USB protocol, converting it to true RS232 levels and standards to send it to the handset where it is then converted to 5v TTL serial protocol, and relayed to the mount.  It's far better to use an FTDI based EQDIR cable connected directly to the mount in place of the handset, or if the mount is more recent and has a USB type B port, use a straight USB A-B cable.   The method of using the handset as a pass through in PC-DIRECT mode stems back a few decades when 9 pin / 21 pin serial ports were common on a PC and USB was in its infancy...

In terms of set up.  Other than the the connections described above, the process is the same.  All three methods are presented as serial ports within device manager, and EQMOD or GSServer simply needs to have the corresponding port selected at either 9600 baud or 115200 baud depending on the cabling method used.

Edited October 28, 2021 by malc-c
added more text