Next scope conundrums (still!)

[wibblefish]

So I have been doing the rounds over the last few months trying to work out what to get as a next scope and have been very appreciative of all the advice so far. Hopefully this will be the last time  before I get something so I hope you will indulge me!

I currently have a 90/660 achro short tube on an az pronto which is a great little scope. It seems to do everything “ok” I have thrown at it within its limitations of size / glass. So doubles, DSO, clusters etc which has been great as a beginner.

I original figured to complement it with maybe a Dobsonian then maybe a bigger refractor instead but as I thought more about what I wanted and my situation I wondered if something similar to what I have but a bit better* might be a compromise.

So with the following parameters:

- Single scope due to space and other limitations, at present I have my achro on a tripod setup thats as much space available

- Light polluted bortle 5 skies, im restricted in a few directions by trees and lampost / neighbour lights

- I enjoy a bit of everything but primarily hunting for messier type things to see even if they are faint and fuzzy which is most 

- Grab and go, I like the ability to just throw the scope out from 10 minute peeks at planets or the moon to maybe a 2 hour session on rare occasions both the weather / my time permits

- Portable, I want something I can move around the garden alot which I have to frequently due to the angles around me

- Moveable, I dont do much off site at the moment but Id like something I could take camping eventually to better skies!

My budget will probably be around 800-900 pounds for scope + mount. I have some BST EP and an altair 1.25” diagonal that I will keep but the 90mm and mount will have to be sold to fund things. Think my budget works out to be 800-900 but less spend will appease the good lady

With all this in mind and reading a few reviews I wonder if this would be worthwhile?

- Altair Ascent 102 ED f7

- skywatcher AZ5 + steel tripod (or other 5kg suitable mount?) + extension pillar

If anyone has any opinions on that combo or other suggestions in the budget Id be happy to have them

Edited October 25, 2021 by wibblefish

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

The 102ED is a definite step up from your current telescope. Bear in mind it's best to also budget for a suitable container.

https://www.cases-and-enclosures.co.uk/long-silver-aluminium-flight-case-l850xw295xh270mm does the job for me.

When not using the pre owned Celestron AVX I bought, the AZ5 & steel tripod is put to use. Far from perfect but in budget. Despite the extra faff of setting up the AVX, I do prefer the GoTo, tracking and rock solid feel the scope has when mounted.

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by ScouseSpaceCadet

[wibblefish]

26 minutes ago, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

The 102ED is a definite step up from your current telescope. Bear in mind it's best to also budget for a suitable container.

https://www.cases-and-enclosures.co.uk/long-silver-aluminium-flight-case-l850xw295xh270mm does the job for me.

When not using the pre owned Celestron AVX I bought, the AZ5 & steel tripod is put to use. Far from perfect but in budget. Despite the extra faff of setting up the AVX, I do prefer the GoTo, tracking and rock solid feel the scope has when mounted.

 

Good call on the container might help when I want to fully pack away though usually leave things setup to jump out!
 

Do you find the AZ5 with the extension etc is solid enough for the scope? My current one suffers from some clutch slip towards the zenith

Edited October 25, 2021 by wibblefish

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

27 minutes ago, wibblefish said:

Good call on the container might help when I want to fully pack away though usually leave things setup to jump out!
 

Do you find the AZ5 with the extension etc is solid enough for the scope? My current one suffers from some clutch slip towards the zenith

You will have clutch slip toward the zenith. Although my AZ5 is over two years old so it might not be so intrusive with a newer unit. I also find the slomos are a tad too short with an f7 scope. There are sturdier mounts out there, however they do cost more. The Skytee2 may be a better option at £429 inc tripod.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/alt-azimuth-astronomy-mounts/skywatcher-skytee-2-alt-azimuth-mount.html

Edited October 25, 2021 by ScouseSpaceCadet

[wibblefish]

1 hour ago, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

You will have clutch slip toward the zenith. Although my AZ5 is over two years old so it might not be so intrusive with a newer unit. I also find the slomos are a tad too short with an f7 scope. There are sturdier mounts out there, however they do cost more. The Skytee2 may be a better option at £429 inc tripod.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/alt-azimuth-astronomy-mounts/skywatcher-skytee-2-alt-azimuth-mount.html

I looked at the skytee before and with having to upgrade the clamps etc as recommended and buy an extension it comes out significantly more. I am sure most say ti spend more on the mount than the telescope but I am not sure my budget will stretch alas.

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

35 minutes ago, wibblefish said:

I looked at the skytee before and with having to upgrade the clamps etc as recommended and buy an extension it comes out significantly more. I am sure most say ti spend more on the mount than the telescope but I am not sure my budget will stretch alas.

I understand as I have a barely average salary public service job, budgeting to get the best one can afford is difficult. Patience and luck comes into play quite a bit as the used market is tricky.

The AZ4 might be a better new buy for you. No slomos, favouring friction clutches. At only £30 more than the AZ5 it comes with a steel tripod. Hopefully those with experience of the AZ4 can help further.

Edited October 25, 2021 by ScouseSpaceCadet

[Tiny Clanger]

I'd rather like an Altair 102 myself, it looks like a really nice instrument , and I've established that I get plenty of use from a grab & go 100mm ish  'frac by buying and enjoying the Bresser 102 , but the CA on that I find annoying for anything apart from wide field.

The mount part is a conundrum though, there's such a leap in price/quality from the mass market sort of setup to the more niche, serious bit of engineering altaz heads (eg. offerings from scopetech, berlebach, giro, rowan ) , and the only easily available intermediates seem to be the AZ5 and skytee . I've no need of the double mount capabilities of the skytee, and I know I'd not be bothered swapping my mak with another OTA on my az5, too much faff, I want an all-in-one , pick it up and cart it outside at a moment's notice type setup for the refractor. 

There seems to be a wider range available in the EU https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/index.php/cat/c21_Mounts-Azimutal-without-GoTo.html trouble is, buy anything which when converted to GBP exceeds £135 (last time I checked the relevant HM customs webpages) and you get hit with 20% VAT, plus (If I recall correctly), another 5% import duty, plus carrier's handling fee which when I investigated was around £15 or so ...

Short answer to my 102 'frac mount conundrum :  hope for a decent second hand Berlebach Castor or similar to come up for sale at some point ! Meanwhile a telescop-express TS6 just about acceptably does the job .

Heather

 

[jjohnson3803]

I have a SkyWatcher AZ5 that I use on a Manfrotto 475B (purchased used) for grab and go as well as trips camping and to dark sites.  It handles my ST80 with Crayford focuser (maybe 6 lbs) quite well, but my ~12 lbs ST120 is pushing it's capabilities IMO.  I admit I've never tried to isolate the wiggles - mount vs. tripod vs. observing on a wooden deck.  They're not horrendous, but they are noticeable from time to time.

I much prefer slo-mo over friction mounts, so my options for a mount upgrade are limited on my hobby budget.  I'm thinking of an upgrade to a 90mm or 100mm fast doublet and sort out the mount later.  The weight and size of fast refractors are major considerations for me.

Good luck!

 

 

 

[wibblefish]

I can’t imagine not having slow mo controls! I think the only other mounts Ive seen are Twilight 1 and Vixen Porta 2 but not read much about them.

[Tiny Clanger]

Well, flippin' heck ! Moments, mere moments after I posted my reply above, what pops up in the sell/swap ? a well priced Berlebach Castor ! Woo hoo !

Just in case this is some sort of magic, wish fulfilment thread , I'd just like to say, bargain second hand Nirvana 7mm eyepiece, and Altair Ascent 102 please, and if the usual magical 3 wishes limit doesn't apply here, maybe a breeser 200mm dob ?  Thanks 🙂

[wibblefish]

3 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

Well, flippin' heck ! Moments, mere moments after I posted my reply above, what pops up in the sell/swap ? a well priced Berlebach Castor ! Woo hoo !

Just in case this is some sort of magic, wish fulfilment thread , I'd just like to say, bargain second hand Nirvana 7mm eyepiece, and Altair Ascent 102 please, and if the usual magical 3 wishes limit doesn't apply here, maybe a breeser 200mm dob ?  Thanks 🙂

Icksny on the wishing for more wishes.

 

[jjohnson3803]

Well... I also have a Twilight 1 with Astro Devices encoders.  To be fair, I should do a side-by-side comparison with the TW on its native tripod and the SW on the Manfrotto.  But I just prefer the ergonomics of the SW AZ5 over the Twilight even though the AZ lacks encoders.

 

[Tiny Clanger]

18 minutes ago, wibblefish said:

I can’t imagine not having slow mo controls! I think the only other mounts Ive seen are Twilight 1 and Vixen Porta 2 but not read much about them.

Well, now the adrenaline has died down, and I've secured the Castor 🙂 ...

I wondered about if I'd want slo mo for the 'frac , but decided to try without , my reasoning being : I was (and am) quite happy to nudge my dob , which is 750mm focal length. However I tried using my 1500mm focal length mak with no slo mo and it was hopeless, I had to have slo mo for that much mag, that little field of view . My ST80 is okay on a decent photo tripod head, no gearing or anything , the 400mm focal length and the short light tube make it very forgiving.

So, the Bresser 102, at 600mm focal length I reckoned I'd not feel the need for slo mo ,and to test this I initially used it with a Baader 3/8" to vixen clamp on the tripod photo head . It was OK, but the photo head was too imprecise for the job, and didn't pan smoothly, so a no slo mo alt az was what I wanted.

I'm still sometimes engrossed with looking through the eyepiece of the mak and feeling for the bresser's focuser (wrong place !), or waving my hand around for the slo mo while looking through the 'frac (there isn't one !) , a bit like swapping between company cars and wiping the windscreen when you wanted to indicate a turn ...

Heather

[wibblefish]

Well if @ScouseSpaceCadet suggests the Az5 steel tripod combo is enough for his ascent I guess it is winning at the moment. I might look around the 2nd hand ads when I actually have some pennies for it
 

Congratulations @Tiny Clanger

Of course I  am waiting for someone to throw a spanner in the works and suggest something else! 

Edited October 25, 2021 by wibblefish

[Tiny Clanger]

1 minute ago, wibblefish said:

Well if @ScouseSpaceCadet suggests the Az5 steel tripod combo is enough for his ascent I guess it is winning at the moment. I might look around the 2nd hand ads when I actually have some pennies for it
 

Congratulations @Tiny Clanger

The AZ5 is a solid lump of stuff, and I enjoy using it with my mak , if slo mo is what you want, it's probably that or the skytee.

I was exceptionally lucky with that Castor popping up  when it did 🙂 , thanks for the topic, without being here typing my reply I'd have gone out and certainly missed it ! I'd suggest you keep your eyes open for a good second hand AZ5, there seems to be a lot of kit popping up for sale here, it wouldn't hurt to upgrade your mount/tripod before your 'scope , your current OTA could be used on the AZ5 until you have the funds for the Altair ...

Heather

[Franklin]

6 hours ago, wibblefish said:

With all this in mind and reading a few reviews I wonder if this would be worthwhile?

- Altair Ascent 102 ED f7

- skywatcher AZ5 + steel tripod (or other 5kg suitable mount?) + extension pillar

Excellent choice. It will not disappoint. I've got the f/11 version on an EQ and it's brill. The shorter, lighter f/7 would work on the AZ5/Twilight/Porta style mounts especially on the steel tubed tripod. You probably wouldn't need an extension. I've got one but I've found it's better to extend the tripod rather than use the extension, much more solid and the long f/11 still clears the legs when pointed at the zenith, just!

[wibblefish]

1 hour ago, Franklin said:

Excellent choice. It will not disappoint. I've got the f/11 version on an EQ and it's brill. The shorter, lighter f/7 would work on the AZ5/Twilight/Porta style mounts especially on the steel tubed tripod. You probably wouldn't need an extension. I've got one but I've found it's better to extend the tripod rather than use the extension, much more solid and the long f/11 still clears the legs when pointed at the zenith, just!

I hope not Ive gone back and forth on scopes for a while now! I guess its not much bigger than my current one so views might be the same but hoping the ED and focuser etc will make up the difference if I get it!

Edited October 25, 2021 by wibblefish

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

2 hours ago, wibblefish said:

I hope not Ive gone back and forth on scopes for a while now! I guess its not much bigger than my current one so views might be the same but hoping the ED and focuser etc will make up the difference if I get it!

Higher contrast, better colour rendition, virtually c.a. free, more resolving power & brighter views with the extra aperture and the ability to increase magnification without degrading the view is not, "the same." 😀

Btw I use the extension with the AZ5. It helps when observing higher up.

Edited October 25, 2021 by ScouseSpaceCadet

[mikeDnight]

I've owned and used both the SW AZ4 & AZ5, and although I liked the AZ5 I did prefer the solidity of the AZ4.  The AZ5 was perfectly capable of carrying my 100mm F7.4 refractor, but it took longer to damp down than the AZ4. With the AZ4 it took 3 seconds for vibrations to damp down where as the AZ5 was 5 seconds. It doesn't sound a lot but it can become frustrating if you're trying to study subtle and intricate planetary detail. The better the tripod the better the performance!

Below are a couple of pics of a 5" steel globe of Mars I made from observations made with the 100mm refractor back in 2016. The scope was mounted on a SW AZ4 with a strong aluminium (Vixen) tripod, as the SW aluminium version uses cheap plastic in its construction which allows for flexure. Although the AZ4 didn't have slow motion controls on the Vixen tripod I could use 250X  to 300X with relative ease. If you go for an AZ5, which I personally prefer to the Vixen Porta/Porta 'll, a steel tripod would be the better option.

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

There you have it @wibblefish. Listen to Mike! The AZ4 costs far less and comes with a 1.75" steel tripod. If you're looking to stay within a tight budget and can learn to observe with friction clutches rather than slomos, the AZ4 would be wise.  As I said earlier, the AZ5 is not perfect, it just happens to be the alt az mount I kept on after selling on the 130ps. Aa also mentioned earlier, the slomos are a bit short for a f7 scope anyway. Grabbing the azimuth cable in the dark is a little hit and miss.

[jock1958]

16 hours ago, wibblefish said:

I looked at the skytee before and with having to upgrade the clamps etc as recommended and buy an extension it comes out significantly more. I am sure most say ti spend more on the mount than the telescope but I am not sure my budget will stretch alas.

I have my 4” F9 refractor mounted on a Skytee 2 and steel leg AZ4 tripod which is permanently set up and ready to go in an instant, it’s easy to pick up and move round the garden, virtually vibration free and also has Slo Mo’ controls....what’s not too like!

Lots of my kit is second hand which has saved me a mint, if you go on UK ABS there’s a year old Skytee 2 and upgraded clamp for £250 he’s also offering an EQ5 tripod as well but not sure if its steel or condition? 
If you can’t stretch to that I can second the AZ4 friction mount and steel leg tripod as a starter then upgrade the mount later, that’s what I did. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by jock1958

[wibblefish]

Thanks all! I shall have to consult the budget in regards the Skytee @jock1958 as it basically works out £500 scope £500 mount (Tripod + AdM vixen saddle replacement) but it might be worth pushing it a bit if I can though if not it looks like the AZ4 is the next best option! I will also check the classifieds when I am ready to purchase maybe I’ll uncover a diamond in the rough 

At least noones come along and thrown a spanner in regards the scope choice so thats one down!

[jock1958]

1 hour ago, wibblefish said:

Thanks all! I shall have to consult the budget in regards the Skytee @jock1958 as it basically works out £500 scope £500 mount (Tripod + AdM vixen saddle replacement) but it might be worth pushing it a bit if I can though if not it looks like the AZ4 is the next best option! I will also check the classifieds when I am ready to purchase maybe I’ll uncover a diamond in the rough 

At least noones come along and thrown a spanner in regards the scope choice so thats one down!

I’ve bought some really good second hand gear off UK Astro Buy & Sell & SGL so it’s definitely worth considering but obviously do your research first. A lot of the items in my pic are second hand including the Skytee 2, WO binoviewers, TV eyepieces, TV power mate and Baader diagonal...anybody would think I’ve got Scottish routes 🤣🤣 

Screen grab of that Skytee 2 add below. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by jock1958

[wibblefish]

Just an update I got a little more budget so I have gone with the Skytee in the end as decided I didn’t want to have to effectively shell out twice for mounts!

Guessing the mount head, steel tripod and adm saddle will arrive from FLO this week and I am going to be popping over to Altair for the scope if they have one in stock

Then of course I presume it’ll be a few weeks of cloudy nights before I can use any of the new kit….

Thanks for the all the advice all!

Edited October 31, 2021 by wibblefish

[jock1958]

Good choice the Skytee 2 & steel tripod combination. I’ve tried other mounts but went back to the ST purely for its robust and functional design, and dare I mention Slo Mo controls 😉 Enjoy!

Edited October 31, 2021 by jock1958