Newbie seeking advice on camera and lens for DSO, planets and moon WITH camera suitable for eventual telescope use

[ONIKKINEN]

11 minutes ago, Ed Galea said:

Thanks Onikkinen, I hear what you are saying and appreciate the advice.  But given that I am in Bortle 8 I'm not sure what I will be able to achieve or if I'll be happy with what I can achieve.  So I want to approach this is a gradual way, taking small steps.  I know this will cost more in the long run, but in the short run, I think it is the most sensible way to approach this.  Especially as I'm also after a good setup for terristerial photography.  I'm totally with you on the mount, when I puchase a tracking mount it will be something substantial that I can grow into and HEQ5 is something I'll consider.  Right now (my Step 1) its the camera and lens and suitable mount for this kit.  I hear you about the astro camera, but that is my Step 4.  But I'm also looking for a camera that can be used for terrestrial photography as well as AP.   So my camera search has led me to the Fujiflim X-T3 or possibly the newer X-T4.  I believe the X-T4 has better video capabilities which may be useful for planetary photography and I think I read somewhere that it is better in low light?.  What do you and the community think about these cameras for AP?  Would the X-T3 be appropriate or should I go for the X-T4, is it worth the extra £££ for AP?  Also, by going the Fujiflims route, will I be limiting myself in terms of the scope of lenses I can use and other accessories?  Hopefully, the Samyang 135 has an X mount adapter as this is ONE of the lenses I'm thinking about getting for AP.  Any advice welcome.

The budgeter in me wanted to skip spending money as much as possible, hence the advice. Taking it slow and in steps will definitely be the more comfortable choice as you'll learn pretty much all aspects of astrophotography on the way. Lots of targets in the sky for Bortle 8 with any kind of setup, telescope or lens. Some things get very difficult and require more exposures to get the object to appear from all the noise but nothing should be impossible.

The DSLR astrophotography world is dominated by Canon and Nikon for available kit and software, but since the you are looking for a mirrorless, i dont think you'll run out of lenses to use with adaptor possibilities. Software to control the camera with a PC will be difficult (or impossible, im now aware of software that works with fuji) but since thats a step in the future, maybe dont worry about it now. PC-control is not a necessity for DSLR astrophotography anyway, just a convenience thing. The samyang 135mm is a great performer and there are lots of targets to shoot with just that, so if you can fit that to the FUJI i think there are no problems. I was able to find some Canon EF - X mount adapters so shouldn't be an issue.  Looking at the specs of both cameras i would go with the cheaper XT-3. Both share the same sensor and inner guts, so astrophotography performance would be the same or very similar. If you want to buy the XT-4, probably look at the differences in terrestial photography, and how much value do you want to give to that. Something that i will say and might come as a surprise but your camera can eat batteries very fast with it sitting outside and taking long exposures. So in this way the XT4 with its bigger battery is more convenient, but you'll still likely need to get extras.

[happy-kat]

If you are looking at videos from a DSLR then video crop mode is useful, the canon 550d has video crop mode. Planetary cameras like the starting ASI120 are designed for planetary/Moon, check out the resource http://astronomy.tools/ and the imaging tab and select a target, camera, lens and see the effect on target size.

As you are in bortle 8 I'd look at narrow band imaging even if you consider something like a CLS filter to start with and you can now use a 3d printed adaptor to use a 1.25 filter in a canon camera.

Zoom lenses are less preferable than prime. There's a whole thread just on imaging with the samyung 135mm lens.

If using free stacking software then you may find you have to convert the fuji raw frames to DNG before you can use them for stacking. 

Depending on how much distance/stairs to your setup location something that keeps it small might suit your circumstances, staradventurer, there's a thread just on that mount too.

Have fun researching.

[Ed Galea]

1 hour ago, happy-kat said:

If you are looking at videos from a DSLR then video crop mode is useful, the canon 550d has video crop mode. Planetary cameras like the starting ASI120 are designed for planetary/Moon, check out the resource http://astronomy.tools/ and the imaging tab and select a target, camera, lens and see the effect on target size.

As you are in bortle 8 I'd look at narrow band imaging even if you consider something like a CLS filter to start with and you can now use a 3d printed adaptor to use a 1.25 filter in a canon camera.

Zoom lenses are less preferable than prime. There's a whole thread just on imaging with the samyung 135mm lens.

If using free stacking software then you may find you have to convert the fuji raw frames to DNG before you can use them for stacking. 

Depending on how much distance/stairs to your setup location something that keeps it small might suit your circumstances, staradventurer, there's a thread just on that mount too.

Have fun researching.

Thanks for the advice Happy-kat.  I wasn't aware that the Fujifilm RAW mode was not compatible with some stackers.  I imagine it will be a pain to have to convert all your RAW images each time you need to stack them.  Just another step in the work flow!  What about the Pentax K-1 Mark 1 as a camera.  I understand it has an astrotracer mode which is like a built in tracker.  It enable you to take images of 60s to 90s.  That could be quite useful.   It is also a full frame sensor.  I think the disadvantages of this camera is that it is very heavy, there are not so many lenses and they are more expensive (Samyang 135 appears to be quite a bit more expensive with the K mount).  While the Pentax K1 uses the Sony sensor, I believe it does not suffer from the 'star-eater' problem that the Sony A6400 does.

Thanks again.

[Ed Galea]

1 hour ago, ONIKKINEN said:

The budgeter in me wanted to skip spending money as much as possible, hence the advice. Taking it slow and in steps will definitely be the more comfortable choice as you'll learn pretty much all aspects of astrophotography on the way. Lots of targets in the sky for Bortle 8 with any kind of setup, telescope or lens. Some things get very difficult and require more exposures to get the object to appear from all the noise but nothing should be impossible.

The DSLR astrophotography world is dominated by Canon and Nikon for available kit and software, but since the you are looking for a mirrorless, i dont think you'll run out of lenses to use with adaptor possibilities. Software to control the camera with a PC will be difficult (or impossible, im now aware of software that works with fuji) but since thats a step in the future, maybe dont worry about it now. PC-control is not a necessity for DSLR astrophotography anyway, just a convenience thing. The samyang 135mm is a great performer and there are lots of targets to shoot with just that, so if you can fit that to the FUJI i think there are no problems. I was able to find some Canon EF - X mount adapters so shouldn't be an issue.  Looking at the specs of both cameras i would go with the cheaper XT-3. Both share the same sensor and inner guts, so astrophotography performance would be the same or very similar. If you want to buy the XT-4, probably look at the differences in terrestial photography, and how much value do you want to give to that. Something that i will say and might come as a surprise but your camera can eat batteries very fast with it sitting outside and taking long exposures. So in this way the XT4 with its bigger battery is more convenient, but you'll still likely need to get extras.

Thanks Onikkinen, I totally understand where you're coming from.  The Samyank 135 does come with an X mount, so will be compatible with the Fujifilm XT3.  I just heard from Happy-kat that the Fujifilm RAW mode was not compatible with some stacker software.  I imagine it will be a pain to have to convert all your RAW images each time you need to stack them.  Just another step in the work flow! 

Another camera I've been thinking about is the Pentax K-1 Mark 1.  I understand that Pentax is fairly unique in that it has an astrotracer mode which is like a built in tracker - suitable for relatively 'short' 'long' exposrues.  It enables you to take images of 60s to 90s depending on the focal length of the lens.  That could be quite useful.   It is also a full frame sensor.  I think the disadvantages of this camera is that it is very heavy, there are not so many lenses and they are more expensive (Samyang 135mm appears to be a bit more expensive with the K mount).  While the Pentax K1 uses the Sony sensor, I believe it does not suffer from the 'star-eater' problem that the Sony A6400 does and which put me off the Sony camera.

Any thoughts?

[ONIKKINEN]

3 minutes ago, Ed Galea said:

Thanks Onikkinen, I totally understand where you're coming from.  The Samyank 135 does come with an X mount, so will be compatible with the Fujifilm XT3.  I just heard from Happy-kat that the Fujifilm RAW mode was not compatible with some stacker software.  I imagine it will be a pain to have to convert all your RAW images each time you need to stack them.  Just another step in the work flow! 

Another camera I've been thinking about is the Pentax K-1 Mark 1.  I understand that Pentax is fairly unique in that it has an astrotracer mode which is like a built in tracker - suitable for relatively 'short' 'long' exposrues.  It enables you to take images of 60s to 90s depending on the focal length of the lens.  That could be quite useful.   It is also a full frame sensor.  I think the disadvantages of this camera is that it is very heavy, there are not so many lenses and they are more expensive (Samyang 135mm appears to be a bit more expensive with the K mount).  While the Pentax K1 uses the Sony sensor, I believe it does not suffer from the 'star-eater' problem that the Sony A6400 does and which put me off the Sony camera.

Any thoughts?

The conversion process is less intimidating as it sounds. I have done something like this multiple times with hundreds of frames with some lunar stacking i tried with adjustments to each frame. You can crop a frame by X amount, do some general adjustments to curves and levels and then copy the settings to all the frames opened. With just a conversion for stacking use you're looking at a few clicks and some time spent processing the conversion so not that time consuming. Converting for stacking use should be done on the raw frame, so no adjustments.

 

Pentax is another brand often overlooked by astrophotographers because of similar issues as with FUJI, lack of support from software. Cuiv, The Lazy Geek on Youtube has some videos with the Pentax astrotracer in use. Might want to check those out if you want to go that route. I think he succeeded in capturing some simple astrophotographs without a tracker with just the astrotracer feature and a tripod. This is the video with the astrotracer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p9Shx3jNZY

 

[Nigella Bryant]

I just went with canon for the simplicity of availability of software support and the ability to have it modded for AP. Once modded it's much more sensitive to hydrogen alpha so it's is better for DSO that contains that. It is a minefield when trying to choose I know. Throwing money at a camera isn't the answer to astrophotography. In fact there's not a camera that will be good for all things astro, it's going to be a compromise as I'm sure you know. 

I'd much prefer personally to buy a dedicated astro camera for planetary imaging and a second camera for DSO and split the money you have for the two cameras. 

[happy-kat]

Astrobin is a great site to look around and use the search to see what might have been taken with what equipment

Edited October 31, 2021 by happy-kat

[Ed Galea]

2 hours ago, Nigella Bryant said:

I just went with canon for the simplicity of availability of software support and the ability to have it modded for AP. Once modded it's much more sensitive to hydrogen alpha so it's is better for DSO that contains that. It is a minefield when trying to choose I know. Throwing money at a camera isn't the answer to astrophotography. In fact there's not a camera that will be good for all things astro, it's going to be a compromise as I'm sure you know. 

I'd much prefer personally to buy a dedicated astro camera for planetary imaging and a second camera for DSO and split the money you have for the two cameras. 

Thanks Nigella, it is difficult to take that first step.  But my additional constraint in STEP 1 is that I also want a camera for terristrial photography too!  So my initial investment won't be wasted if I decide AP is not for me!  So, I want to find a good camera (and lens) that will get demonstrate to me the joys of AP, allow me to develop some skills in post processing, be a great camera/lens for terirsterial photography and then rapidly move onto the latter steps where I will invest in a telescope and dedicated astro camera.  That is why I'm happy to invest quite a bit of £££ in the initial camera/lens combo, it will have other uses and it will be stepping stone onto other things!  

[Nigella Bryant]

1 minute ago, Ed Galea said:

Thanks Nigella, it is difficult to take that first step.  But my additional constraint in STEP 1 is that I also want a camera for terristrial photography too!  So my initial investment won't be wasted if I decide AP is not for me!  So, I want to find a good camera (and lens) that will get demonstrate to me the joys of AP, allow me to develop some skills in post processing, be a great camera/lens for terirsterial photography and then rapidly move onto the latter steps where I will invest in a telescope and dedicated astro camera.  That is why I'm happy to invest quite a bit of £££ in the initial camera/lens combo, it will have other uses and it will be stepping stone onto other things!  

A full spectrum mod will allow both terrestrial and astro application. Just a thought. 

[Ed Galea]

1 hour ago, happy-kat said:

Astrobin is a great site to look around and use the search to see what might have been taken with what equipment

Thanks for the info Happy-Kat, I just joined.

[Andrew_B]

10 hours ago, Ed Galea said:

Many thanks Andrew_B, all your comments are great and very useful.  My camera search has led me to the Fujiflim X-T3 or possibly the newer X-T4.  I believe the X-T4 has better video capabilities which may be useful for planetary photography and I think I read somewhere that it is better in low light?.  What do you and the community think about this camera for astrophotography?   Will I be limiting myself in terms of the scope of lenses I can use?  Hopefully, the Samyang 135 has an X mount adapter as this is one of the lenses I'm thinking about getting.  Any advice welcome.

Thanks again.

Thanks for your kind words.

The X-T3 and X-T4 cameras are brilliant models and would make great all-rounders for astro and normal photography but they're not actually the best Fuji cameras for astrophotography because they perform noise reduction on the raw files which I don't think can be turned off. It's a little bit like what Sony do but nowhere near as aggressive so the impact on your images would be far less, but I've seen posts on dpreview where people have tested this and it does reduce the visibility of faint stars in an image compared to what should be there.

This noise reduction is only implemented in Fuji's X-Trans models and their cheaper cameras that use normal Bayer patterns don't seem to be affected so although it's not a good a camera in terms of all round performance, an X-T100 is in some respects a better choice for astro than the X-T3. It doesn't have as good a screen though, so getting your lenses focused at the start of a session is a bit more fiddly.

I think difference is relatively subtle so it's not like you can't get good astro shots with the more expensive models, just that you don't need to spend that much if astro is your number one priority but if you want a great camera for every use then you'll appreciate the features and handling of the better models.

Samyang lenses are available natively in X mount and you can also get relatively cheap adaptors to fit lenses made for Canon EOS or Nikon F mount onto your Fuji camera.

A nice thing about the Fuji cameras is that their red sensitivity is good enough as standard that you can take really good astro shots without having to mod them first. I've even short H-alpha narrowband with my stock X-T100 and got a surprisingly good result.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Andrew_B

[Ed Galea]

Hi Andrew_B, Thanks again for the insight.  I heard about the issue you describe concerning the Fujifilm X-T3, but from what I understand, and you confirm, it is not as pronounced as the Sony 'star eater' problem.  So I'm still thinking about the Fujifilm X-T3 as a possible contender.   As you suggest, it would be a pretty good 'all around camera' and so will satisfy my terrestrial photography needs.

Another camera I've been thinking about is the Pentax K-1 Mark 1.  I understand that Pentax is fairly unique in that it has the built in astrotracer mode that is suitable for relatively 'short' 'long' exposures of around 60s to 90s.  This could be quite useful.  The camera is also full frame which has its attactions for AP.  I think the disadvantage of this camera for me is that it is very heavy, there are not so many lenses and they are more expensive (the Samyang 135 mm comes in a K mount but is more expensive then options with more common mounts).  While the Pentax K1 Mark 1 uses the Sony sensor, I believe it does not suffer from the dreaded 'star-eater' problem.   I just had a look at a video by Cuiv, The Lazy Geek using this camera in Tokyo (similar Bortle to London) for DSO and it was pretty good.

So the XT3 is better than the K1 for my terrestrial needs, but the K1 may be better than the XT3 for my AP needs?  Any thoughts on these two or a better camera to meet both needs?

[Andrew_B]

I don't think you'd be disappointed by the X-T3. I love the Fuji cameras and even though mine are very basic things like the out of camera JPEGs can be superb. Granted that's not relevant to astrophotography but I think there's a lot to be said for a simplified workflow for normal photography and there's nothing to stop you shooting raw as well to give you more post-processing options if you want something different from what the camera itself has done.

I'm sure the Pentax would be an amazing camera but I don't think full frame is necessary for good AP and it brings additional costs that you might not want to pay. Like you say, it's a much heavier camera so you're losing much of the advantage of APS-C mirrorless which allows for very small and light cameras that don't stress focusers or mounts all that much. The other thing is that while plenty of lenses and telescopes will produce a good image across the 29mm diagonal of an APS-C sensor, you'll find a lot of them aren't suitable for the larger 43mm diagonal of full frame. You see this particularly with things like focal reducers which often only quote a 30-40mm image circle and outside that you get severe vignetting or very visible aberrations.

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to get one perfect camera at this point - you want something that will work well and you'll enjoy using but there's no reason why you can't upgrade or add another camera at a later date that might be better suited for astro. Focusing on learning how to image and your processing workflow will deliver amazing results from even very low end gear but even the best camera is going to produce disappointing results if your processing skills aren't up to much.

I think you'd enjoy the X-T3 and so long as your stacking software handles the raw format (Astro Pixel Processor for example works just fine) I think you'll be impressed by its all-round qualities.

[Ed Galea]

31 minutes ago, Andrew_B said:

I don't think you'd be disappointed by the X-T3. I love the Fuji cameras and even though mine are very basic things like the out of camera JPEGs can be superb. Granted that's not relevant to astrophotography but I think there's a lot to be said for a simplified workflow for normal photography and there's nothing to stop you shooting raw as well to give you more post-processing options if you want something different from what the camera itself has done.

I'm sure the Pentax would be an amazing camera but I don't think full frame is necessary for good AP and it brings additional costs that you might not want to pay. Like you say, it's a much heavier camera so you're losing much of the advantage of APS-C mirrorless which allows for very small and light cameras that don't stress focusers or mounts all that much. The other thing is that while plenty of lenses and telescopes will produce a good image across the 29mm diagonal of an APS-C sensor, you'll find a lot of them aren't suitable for the larger 43mm diagonal of full frame. You see this particularly with things like focal reducers which often only quote a 30-40mm image circle and outside that you get severe vignetting or very visible aberrations.

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to get one perfect camera at this point - you want something that will work well and you'll enjoy using but there's no reason why you can't upgrade or add another camera at a later date that might be better suited for astro. Focusing on learning how to image and your processing workflow will deliver amazing results from even very low end gear but even the best camera is going to produce disappointing results if your processing skills aren't up to much.

I think you'd enjoy the X-T3 and so long as your stacking software handles the raw format (Astro Pixel Processor for example works just fine) I think you'll be impressed by its all-round qualities.

Many thanks Andrew_B, you are a star (pun intended).  One last question, as I am in Bortle 8 I understand that I will need to be imaging with filters, probably a broadband light pollution filter like the Optolong L-enhance or similar.  My question is, how are these used/installed when using the X-T3?  For example, if I was using the Samyang 135mm lens or a 200mm lens, how would I install the filter?  Do I need to purchase some kind of cassette that takes the filter that sits between the back of the lens and the camera?  The filter is either 1.25'' or 2.0'' so won't screw onto the lens.  Optolong also do plug in versions, but I assume that is just for Canon?  So if I go down the X-T3 route, does that mean I can't use filters to tame the light pollution?

Thanks again for your patience.

[happy-kat]

Using step rings 2" filters can be attached to the front of a camera lens.

[happy-kat]

Initially you could start without a filter as your static mount will dictate exposure length with the lens used and not likely your light pollution from bortle 8

[Ed Galea]

3 hours ago, happy-kat said:

Using step rings 2" filters can be attached to the front of a camera lens.

Thanks Happy-kat, but doesn't that stopper the lens down?  Won't I be losing aperture?

[Ed Galea]

3 hours ago, happy-kat said:

Initially you could start without a filter as your static mount will dictate exposure length with the lens used and not likely your light pollution from bortle 8

Happy-kat, yes I guess that would be a reasonable, but my Step 2 will see me progress to a tracking mount.  If I can't use filters on my selected camera/lens combination I'll have to change the camera.  This looks like it could force me down the Canon route after all!

[woldsman]

The Samyang 135 f2 works well in cold winter temperatures although I’ve not yet braved anything ultra harsh.  Worth thinking about how cold your conditions will be. There can be issues using telephotos in extremely low temperatures. Scopes are better designed to handle the cold. If you stick with lenses, you may need to think about protecting them. 

[happy-kat]

9 hours ago, Ed Galea said:

Thanks Happy-kat, but doesn't that stopper the lens down?  Won't I be losing aperture?

Depending on lens size you could loose some aperture, but leness are not always used wide open as likely to expose lens aberrations, and step rings don't generate defraction spikes.

 

[Nigella Bryant]

10 hours ago, Ed Galea said:

This looks like it could force me down the Canon route after all!

I've said that all along, 😂😂😂

[happy-kat]

11 hours ago, Ed Galea said:

Happy-kat, yes I guess that would be a reasonable, but my Step 2 will see me progress to a tracking mount.  If I can't use filters on my selected camera/lens combination I'll have to change the camera.  This looks like it could force me down the Canon route after all!

Why not look around this thread and see where member's are putting a filter when used with this lens with what camera.

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/333381-imaging-with-the-samyang-135mm-f2/page/37/?tab=comments#comment-4162047

[Ed Galea]

1 hour ago, happy-kat said:

Why not look around this thread and see where member's are putting a filter when used with this lens with what camera.

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/333381-imaging-with-the-samyang-135mm-f2/page/37/?tab=comments#comment-4162047

Happy-kat, many thanks for the link, I will have a look at this - there are a huge number of posts on that thread so hopefully will find something relevant to my immediate issues, but interesting stuff never the less.

[Ed Galea]

2 hours ago, Nigella Bryant said:

I've said that all along, 😂😂😂

Nigella, yes indeed, but it is a learning process and we learn something with each step of the way.  Also opens up new problems.  For example, while the Canon provides a clip in filter solution, I don't think that is very practical as when you move onto a dedicated astro camera you will need to repurchase all your filters again.   So I'd like to find a more practical solution that will allow me to reuse expensive filters when I change camera type.

Any thoughts on this?

[ONIKKINEN]

https://shop.stcoptics.com/product/clipfilter_fujifilm/

Could be worth checking out for the Fuji.

Broadband imaging from light pollution is not impossible at all by the way, it just has additional issues and restrictions but a filter is never a necessity.

Bright broadband targets like the popular nearby galaxies should be doable from anywhere, just takes more time.