Eyepiece Deliberations

[Stu1smartcookie]

In fact I want to thank all of you for your invaluable input. I was going to pull the trigger on a Hyperion today but I am leaning towards an Explore SCIENTIFIC 82 DEGREE but I'm still in the homework phase tonight 

[Stu1smartcookie]

4 minutes ago, badhex said:

I will give 100 votes to the Morpheus range, in particular the 17.5mm which is my favourite eyepiece of all time

Thanks for the heads up.... Whilst cost is inevitably a factor the value is in the regular usage. 

[Stu1smartcookie]

Back to the YouTube videos lol

[IB20]

I found the best of the BST range are the 15mm & 8mm. The Morpheus 17.5mm is an incredible eyepiece and barlows like a dream if you can squeeze the budget a little more. I’d say my most used eyepiece is the 10mm Baader Classic Ortho, which for ~£50 is probably the best cost/performance eyepiece on the market. 

[badhex]

28 minutes ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

Thanks for the heads up.... Whilst cost is inevitably a factor the value is in the regular usage. 

Couldn't agree more. The cost per use ends up being negligible for something you use every time you observe - weather permitting of course!

17 minutes ago, IB20 said:

I found the best of the BST range are the 15mm & 8mm. The Morpheus 17.5mm is an incredible eyepiece and barlows like a dream if you can squeeze the budget a little more. I’d say my most used eyepiece is the 10mm Baader Classic Ortho, which for ~£50 is probably the best cost/performance eyepiece on the market. 

I also have the BCO at both 10mm and 6mm - absolute bargain EPs. The only thing that can be a bit tough is the eye relief, but that's true of any ortho - regardless they are fantastic EPs for planetary.

[Zermelo]

13 hours ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

In fact I want to thank all of you for your invaluable input. I was going to pull the trigger on a Hyperion today but I am leaning towards an Explore SCIENTIFIC 82 DEGREE but I'm still in the homework phase tonight 

There are also clones of the ES 82° series (or, given that the common production model is that a factory somewhere in China/Taiwan produces stuff that then gets variously badged, perhaps it would be fairer to describe them as "siblings"). Some seem to be the same optically as the ES while lacking the waterproofing/purging, but there are others like the Opticstars that appear to be identical, but retail for up to £20 less. You may or may not be comfortable with the variants (some people raise concerns over whether the coatings are truly the same, or different QC tolerances etc.).

 

13 hours ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

Thanks for the heads up.... Whilst cost is inevitably a factor the value is in the regular usage. 

I've not tried any of the Morpheus line - it's another step up in price - but the opinions I've seen have been very positive.

There's a long thread here if you've not seen it:

 

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Zermelo
typo

[Bridgehouse]

My first decent eyepiece was a TV Panoptic 24.

 

It’s expensive. But when researching it was an eyepiece that kept cropping up as a staple in many peoples collections. It has been proven over time as a consistently useful and high performing eyepiece that hits just the right balance between AFOV, TFOV, size and weight, and it’s built to last a lifetime.

 

Might be outside your budget but they come up used for a reasonable sum, and you are pretty much guaranteed that you’ll find it useful and keep using it. 

[Stu1smartcookie]

31 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

My first decent eyepiece was a TV Panoptic 24.

 

It’s expensive. But when researching it was an eyepiece that kept cropping up as a staple in many peoples collections. It has been proven over time as a consistently useful and high performing eyepiece that hits just the right balance between AFOV, TFOV, size and weight, and it’s built to last a lifetime.

 

Might be outside your budget but they come up used for a reasonable sum, and you are pretty much guaranteed that you’ll find it useful and keep using it. 

Yep a little bit more than i am willing to pay , but ,of course quality costs ... not sure my older eyes can discern minute details that lend themselves to top of the range EP's though .

 

[Bridgehouse]

5 minutes ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

Yep a little bit more than i am willing to pay , but ,of course quality costs ... not sure my older eyes can discern minute details that lend themselves to top of the range EP's though .

 

Every little helps I’d say. With top of the range eyepieces I’d say it’s about investment in something you’ll use for years to come and over time the cost becomes less of a factor

[HiveIndustries]

2 minutes ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

Yep a little bit more than i am willing to pay , but ,of course quality costs ... not sure my older eyes can discern minute details that lend themselves to top of the range EP's though .

 

You can, you just don't know you can. It's almost like coffee tasting, you really need to taste them side by side to understand when you're new. If you had a cheap Plossl and a nice say TV Ethos and someone pointing out what you're seeing and why you'd definitely at least see the difference and can discern if it matters to you. I'm a super newb and any authority I speak from only comes from recent past 6-12 month personal experience.

At least for me it's a very personal opinion. I don't mind having a cheap 1.25" 40mm Plossl on my scope and have a much nicer 17mm and 26mm with quality barlow because that's where I spend my time really observing. I'll get a nicer, wider EP some day off in the future (after a 13mm, though!). Someone else might really want that Nagler 31mm on the same scope because they value a more wider view for what they're doing.

 

[Stu1smartcookie]

24 minutes ago, HiveIndustries said:

You can, you just don't know you can. It's almost like coffee tasting, you really need to taste them side by side to understand when you're new. If you had a cheap Plossl and a nice say TV Ethos and someone pointing out what you're seeing and why you'd definitely at least see the difference and can discern if it matters to you. I'm a super newb and any authority I speak from only comes from recent past 6-12 month personal experience.

At least for me it's a very personal opinion. I don't mind having a cheap 1.25" 40mm Plossl on my scope and have a much nicer 17mm and 26mm with quality barlow because that's where I spend my time really observing. I'll get a nicer, wider EP some day off in the future (after a 13mm, though!). Someone else might really want that Nagler 31mm on the same scope because they value a more wider view for what they're doing.

 

Hey ... lol ... i've got a new flat in Russia to design and furnish !!!! if i spend spend spend on expensive EP's i will be living in the box my next scope is delivered in ! 🤣

[Ricochet]

If it is still available there is a 24mm ES68 going for all of £60 on ABS. Not quite a 24 Panoptic, but most of the difference is in the size and weight of the eyepiece rather than the optical quality. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Ricochet

[Louis D]

29 minutes ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

Hey ... lol ... i've got a new flat in Russia to design and furnish !!!! if i spend spend spend on expensive EP's i will be living in the box my next scope is delivered in ! 🤣

My son just graduated college (with a minor in Russian no less) and furnished his new apartment in San Antonio entirely from Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace for under $500.  It's all vintage to antique stuff, so very well built.  He just borrowed my Chevy Astro van for 2 months to haul everything.  Hopefully, Russia has similar places for classifieds.  With the money saved, you might be able to afford some nicer eyepieces.

[Stu1smartcookie]

38 minutes ago, Louis D said:

My son just graduated college (with a minor in Russian no less) and furnished his new apartment in San Antonio entirely from Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace for under $500.  It's all vintage to antique stuff, so very well built.  He just borrowed my Chevy Astro van for 2 months to haul everything.  Hopefully, Russia has similar places for classifieds.  With the money saved, you might be able to afford some nicer eyepieces.

Louis ... lol... we will have an architect from St Petersburg for starters ...in Russia you just buy the floor space and design the interior right down to the size of each room so every flat can be different . The way i'm going we will just live in the floor space 🤣 ... but at least i will have my scopes there .

[Stu1smartcookie]

1 hour ago, Ricochet said:

If it is still available there is a 24mm ES68 going for all of £60 on ABS. Not quite a 24 Panoptic, but most of the difference is in the size and weight of the eyepiece rather than the optical quality. 

Thank you , i will take a look . 

[Nicola Fletcher]

I also recommend the Baader Hyperion Zoom. I do have expensive EPs but find myself using the Zoom on both my refractors and I also used to use it on my 127 SCT before I sold that scope. I also really like the BSTs which won’t break the bank 👍

[Zermelo]

3 hours ago, HiveIndustries said:

You can, you just don't know you can. It's almost like coffee tasting, you really need to taste them side by side to understand when you're new. If you had a cheap Plossl and a nice say TV Ethos and someone pointing out what you're seeing and why you'd definitely at least see the difference and can discern if it matters to you. I'm a super newb and any authority I speak from only comes from recent past 6-12 month personal experience.

 

I'm still wondering about this.

It seems to me that there are perhaps five possible responses/causes to an improvement in quality somewhere in the light train:

(a) a noticeable improvement in the image, even to a novice

(b) no change discerned, because the improvement is still "masked" by other limiting hardware

(c) no change discerned, because the observer's eyesight has deteriorated beyond the point at which the change can be registered (OK, you could include the eyesight biomechanisms under "hardware" above)

(d) no change discerned because the observing conditions set an upper limit on the quality of the image (though obviously this could be varied with changes in location and time, so can be excluded)

(e) no change discerned, because the experience/"brain training" of the observer is insufficient to detect the (possibly subtle) change

and obviously if some change is detected, it might still be the case that its degree varies with observer experience and acuity.

Since most of my learning about observing has happened since the onset of COVID, and hence has happened either virtually (from these hallowed pages) or by solo experience, then I've not had the chance to, for example, swap in my observing neighbour's Delos into my budget scope and see if I can notice any difference.

So at the moment I'm unsure of the point at which improvements to equipment become undetectable to me, because of my less-than-perfect eyesight. I might already have reached it, or it might be some way off. When I took part in the that last light pollution survey ("how many stars can you see in Orion?") I got to about a dozen, while the six-year-old girl down the road claimed 30!

[HiveIndustries]

5 minutes ago, Zermelo said:

I'm still wondering about this.

It seems to me that there are perhaps five possible responses/causes to an improvement in quality somewhere in the light train:

(a) a noticeable improvement in the image, even to a novice

(b) no change discerned, because the improvement is still "masked" by other limiting hardware

(c) no change discerned, because the observer's eyesight has deteriorated beyond the point at which the change can be registered (OK, you could include the eyesight biomechanisms under "hardware" above)

(d) no change discerned because the observing conditions set an upper limit on the quality of the image (though obviously this could be varied with changes in location and time, so can be excluded)

(e) no change discerned, because the experience/"brain training" of the observer is insufficient to detect the (possibly subtle) change

and obviously if some change is detected, it might still be the case that its degree varies with observer experience and acuity.

Since most of my learning about observing has happened since the onset of COVID, and hence has happened either virtually (from these hallowed pages) or by solo experience, then I've not had the chance to, for example, swap in my observing neighbour's Delos into my budget scope and see if I can notice any difference.

So at the moment I'm unsure of the point at which improvements to equipment become undetectable to me, because of my less-than-perfect eyesight. I might already have reached it, or it might be some way off. When I took part in the that last light pollution survey ("how many stars can you see in Orion?") I got to about a dozen, while the six-year-old girl down the road claimed 30!

That's a much more mature opinion than mine. Specifically I was talking about things like distortion, field of view, eye relief, astigmatism, all of those things are easily discernible if you show someone what they are in person. How would you know what kind of lens bothers you out of the box unless you have something to compare it to?

I hate talking about my personal choices on someone elses EP thread because I am just that new but I probably would have spent more money than I did on my 17mm Nagler Type 4 and got an Ethos if I had purchased the EP online instead of in the store. Understanding what I cared about saved me some $$ to spend elsewhere.

[Louis D]

On 21/10/2021 at 06:42, Stu1smartcookie said:

Yep a little bit more than i am willing to pay , but ,of course quality costs ... not sure my older eyes can discern minute details that lend themselves to top of the range EP's though .

 

It's a matter of ignorance is bliss.  I literally had no idea what I was missing in clarity of view with poorly corrected eyepieces until I looked through premium eyepieces at star parties.  Same thing with coma correctors and field flatteners.  Once you've identified what eyepiece (and optical chain) flaws look like, you can't unsee them.

It's similar to cars.  Until you've driven a high performance sedan or sports car, you really have no idea what you're missing driving an econobox.  That visceral experience is intoxicating and addictive, just like viewing through high end eyepieces and telescopes.

[Stu1smartcookie]

22 minutes ago, Louis D said:

It's a matter of ignorance is bliss.  I literally had no idea what I was missing in clarity of view with poorly corrected eyepieces until I looked through premium eyepieces at star parties.  Same thing with coma correctors and field flatteners.  Once you've identified what eyepiece (and optical chain) flaws look like, you can't unsee them.

It's similar to cars.  Until you've driven a high performance sedan or sports car, you really have no idea what you're missing driving an econobox.  That visceral experience is intoxicating and addictive, just like viewing through high end eyepieces and telescopes.

hmmm not sure i like the analogy with cars ... my last 5 have been 3 x BMW and 2X Nissan ... i think the nissans take it for comfort 🤣

[Louis D]

9 minutes ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

hmmm not sure i like the analogy with cars ... my last 5 have been 3 x BMW and 2X Nissan ... i think the nissans take it for comfort 🤣

Oh, I'm not arguing that at all.  My 2009 Pontiac G8 GT beat the heck out of my back on backroads going to a new job back in 2011, so I bought a 2011 Chevy Impala just for commuting.  Problem solved!  However, I still love driving the G8 on evenings and weekends on good roads, and the Impala has been passed along to my daughter as a college graduation present.

[Stu1smartcookie]

6 minutes ago, Louis D said:

However, I still love driving the G8 on evenings and weekends on good roads,

Louis i can see you have no idea about the poor state of UK roads lol 🤣

[Louis D]

8 minutes ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

Louis i can see you have no idea about the poor state of UK roads lol 🤣

Nope, I haven't driven in Britain yet.  I'd probably screw up the whole left/right side of the road flip and crash. 🤪

Your roads are probably similar in condition to Michigan roads where my wife is from.  They go through dozens of freeze/thaw cycles every winter which destroys their roads.

[Stu1smartcookie]

wow ... yep , just like here lol 

 

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

1 hour ago, Louis D said:

It's a matter of ignorance is bliss.  I literally had no idea what I was missing in clarity of view with poorly corrected eyepieces until I looked through premium eyepieces at star parties.  Same thing with coma correctors and field flatteners.  Once you've identified what eyepiece (and optical chain) flaws look like, you can't unsee them.

It's similar to cars.  Until you've driven a high performance sedan or sports car, you really have no idea what you're missing driving an econobox.  That visceral experience is intoxicating and addictive, just like viewing through high end eyepieces and telescopes.

Ignorance is certainly cheaper! To be fair since I've owned a Vixen SLV/LVW and APM clones in the upper mid/lower high end price range I've noticed there is a stark difference in perfomance compared to the sub £100 eyepieces however those cheaper units like BSTs don't spoil the observing experience at all.