ASIAir Plus- Is it for you?

[Stuf1978]

Quick question. Can you use an old image (from a previous session) to plate solve with ASIair in order to get the same fov?

[Icesheet]

7 hours ago, Stuf1978 said:

Quick question. Can you use an old image (from a previous session) to plate solve with ASIair in order to get the same fov?

Hi,

Yes it’s possible. You just go to an old image from the previous session, tap on it and it should give an option to ‘go to’. If you watch this video from Cuiv it explains it better. He talks about that from 2:42. It’s worthwhile watching the whole thing. Some good tips. 
 

 

[Ouroboros]

Excellent video that, @Icesheet.  I picked up a few useful tricks there, thanks. 

I have a Plus on order, but I’ve been using a Pro for a couple of months now and am very impressed. I’ve done astrophotography via a computer for several years  now initially using EQMOD in windows and more latterly KStars/ekos on a Mac.  It’s all worked (eventually) but frankly it’s been a bit of a struggle. Sometimes it’s felt like the hobby has been more about overcoming  the technological difficulties than enjoying the Astro photography.  It would probably by fine (and obviously is for many) in a permanent set up. But complexity and setting up each time do not go well together. The ASIair simplifies things IMO. And as I think you said earlier, it just works. 

A couple of things I’ve felt worth mentioning. The first is a suggestion. I would like to see an integrated planetarium option in the ASIair app.  OK SkySafari or whatever can be tied in with ASI but it’s not quite the same somehow as an integrated planetarium. The alternative of selecting objects from a list seems a bit handset old-school, if you get me.

My second point is about polar aligning with the ASI. I have found it less easy to use than the polar align feature in KStars for example.  The ASI polar align seems rather more sensitive to adjustments. In ASI I can get it to below a minute of arc with the smiley face an’ all and suddenly after fine tweaking it’s way off again, often in the other coordinate. It’s less repeatable too. I can polar align, return to home and then start polar alignment again (to recheck) and find it reckons polar alignment is somewhat off again.  Interestingly with guiding my star tracking seems as good with ASI as with KStars. So, maybe I’ve got nothing to worry about. 

[Stuf1978]

8 hours ago, Icesheet said:

Hi,

Yes it’s possible. You just go to an old image from the previous session, tap on it and it should give an option to ‘go to’. If you watch this video from Cuiv it explains it better. He talks about that from 2:42. It’s worthwhile watching the whole thing. Some good tips. 
 

 

Brilliant, thank you 😁

[Icesheet]

2 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

A couple of things I’ve felt worth mentioning. The first is a suggestion. I would like to see an integrated planetarium option in the ASIair app.  OK SkySafari or whatever can be tied in with ASI but it’s not quite the same somehow as an integrated planetarium. The alternative of selecting objects from a list seems a bit handset old-school, if you get me.

Yes, integration with a planetarium would be good. Actually, I didn’t even know you could tie in SkySafari. Will need to look into that. 
 

2 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

My second point is about polar aligning with the ASI. I have found it less easy to use than the polar align feature in KStars for example.  The ASI polar align seems rather more sensitive to adjustments. In ASI I can get it to below a minute of arc with the smiley face an’ all and suddenly after fine tweaking it’s way off again, often in the other coordinate. It’s less repeatable too. I can polar align, return to home and then start polar alignment again (to recheck) and find it reckons polar alignment is somewhat off again.  Interestingly with guiding my star tracking seems as good with ASI as with KStars. So, maybe I’ve got nothing to worry about. 

You know I’ve always found the Polar Alignment simple and seemingly reliable but now you mention it I do remember a few times it appeared to ‘jump’ more than I expected or not move at all after an adjustment. I have never gone back to check afterwards though so that’s interesting observation. I’ll try to remember to check that when I’m next out. Although, as you say as long the guiding is good maybe nothing to worry about. 

[Ouroboros]

57 minutes ago, Icesheet said:

You know I’ve always found the Polar Alignment simple and seemingly reliable but now you mention it I do remember a few times it appeared to ‘jump’ more than I expected or not move at all after an adjustment. I have never gone back to check afterwards though so that’s interesting observation. I’ll try to remember to check that when I’m next out. Although, as you say as long the guiding is good maybe nothing to worry about. 

Yes, I’m aware reading others comments that I seem to be pretty much alone in thinking ASI polar align is quirky shall I say compared to other systems I’ve used. I put it down to the fact that they work in different ways. I assume that ASI have to repeatedly  plate solve and calculate in order to tell you how close you are. Other methods only plate solve once to display a cross mark where to move a chosen star to.  In the latter you’re seeing an updated image of actual stars rather than a constantly re-calculated position as in ASI. 

[The Admiral]

On 23/10/2021 at 17:13, The Admiral said:

That's good news. Hopefully mine won't be too far behind

Just had an email from FLO saying that mine has been despatched!

Ian

[Bullmastiff]

I’m looking for some help with stacking I’m using the asiair plus on autorun I can see that all my lights flats bias and darks are all in folders on a usb drive I open up asi studio and I don’t really see much at all am I doing something wrong ?

im using a zwo 533mc pro 

[The Admiral]

11 hours ago, Bullmastiff said:

I’m looking for some help with stacking I’m using the asiair plus on autorun I can see that all my lights flats bias and darks are all in folders on a usb drive I open up asi studio and I don’t really see much at all am I doing something wrong ?

im using a zwo 533mc pro 

What object are you imaging?

Are you stretching the image files? An unstretched fits file is quite possibly not going to show much. If you'd like, if you could upload one of the subs someone could check it out.

Ian

[Bullmastiff]

I’m using a RedCat 61 with zwo 533mc pro when I’m imaging I can see the image on the iPad with good detail and before packing up I do my flats, bias and darks. And when I use asi studio or deep stack I don’t see anything maybe I don’t what I’m doing with the processing?

this is what I’m getting on the iPad while imagining and when I stacking it I don’t see that at all NGC6888

Edited August 22, 2023 by Bullmastiff

[The Admiral]

3 hours ago, Bullmastiff said:

I’m using a RedCat 61 with zwo 533mc pro when I’m imaging I can see the image on the iPad with good detail and before packing up I do my flats, bias and darks. And when I use asi studio or deep stack I don’t see anything maybe I don’t what I’m doing with the processing?

this is what I’m getting on the iPad while imagining and when I stacking it I don’t see that at all NGC6888

 

That's because the ASIAir is automatically stretching the image to make it visible. If you slide the white slider at the bottom to the right, the image will darken and will appear like you are seeing in ASI Studio. If you click the 'AUTO' button it will automatically stretch the image again.

As part of your post-processing, you have to stretch the stacked image. ASI Studio isn't really intended for post-processing. What are you using for that? There is a range of software that can be used for that, some free and others very expensive. Have a Goggle around.

Ian

[Bullmastiff]

I tried using deepskystacker yesterday it seemed to go all through the process with my lights flats and bias took about 2 hrs and it really did not show much I can’t find much on YouTube as help with deepskystacker. 
just a quick question on the photo I put in here is that what’s expected? 
I did 2min exposures x 75 I did plan on doing 100 but my battery went flat 

[Ouroboros]

4 hours ago, Bullmastiff said:

I tried using deepskystacker yesterday it seemed to go all through the process with my lights flats and bias took about 2 hrs and it really did not show much I can’t find much on YouTube as help with deepskystacker. 
just a quick question on the photo I put in here is that what’s expected? 
I did 2min exposures x 75 I did plan on doing 100 but my battery went flat 

Don’t worry. The data is there. As @The Admiral says, the data is low value and needs to be enhanced (stretched) in an image processing application. I don’t use ASIstudio, but I just went into YouTube and searched for ASIstudio tutorial and a number of tutorial videos appeared.

Coincidentally I also imaged NGC6888 last night and my data looks just like yours. It’s currently being stacked in Pixinsight. I only managed 41 viable subs out of a total of 60 subs due to intermittent cloud. It’ll be interesting to compare. Good luck. 

[Bullmastiff]

I’m goign to try it but not sure what I need to do asi studio is not that great If you could help me with what your using and the process that would be really kind of you to help so yes would be great to compare ? Plz help 

[bosun21]

You should attach one of your saved subs to a post here to allow one of these proficient gentlemen to check it for you to ensure all is well at your end 

[Elp]

I don't use asistudio as I thought it was just an image acquisition program. Download GIMP (it's free and a Photoshop equivalent). Open the stacked image, go to Colours > Levels, bring up the black levels slider under the histogram a bit (LH slider under the graph, moving it to the right will cause the histogram peak to move to the left making the image darker, the graph is a visual summary of your data going from pure black (LH side) to pure white (RH side), then move the midpoint slider to the left making the midtone data brighter). Do this a few times keeping an eye on the histogram so it doesn't get cut off (LH or RH) as this will permanently delete data from the image going forward.

This is a basic AP post process operation to see what data you're working with and "stretching the data".

I now only use DSS for quick rough visual work to quickly look at the data, Siril is much better and allows more pre/post processing, but ultimately you'll need to learn a DTP (desk top publishing) or image editing software to finish the image, unless you want to pay for and learn Pixinsight (I don't).

[Ouroboros]

1 hour ago, Bullmastiff said:

I’m goign to try it but not sure what I need to do asi studio is not that great If you could help me with what your using and the process that would be really kind of you to help so yes would be great to compare ? Plz help 

You will find help here, but to learn Astro processing you have to be prepared for a long journey.   I agree that ASIStudio isn’t that great. It has the advantage though that at least you’ve got it on your computer and using it will probably show you what your data looks like. I’ve just watched this video and it seems to enable people to do some basic processing.

I use Pixinsight, but I started by using Photoshop, the latter  I just happened to have already. Both are quite expensive. There are some free apps like Gimp for which you will similarly find video tutorials. Do some searching and you’ll find other apps also recommended by SGL members. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Ouroboros

[Bullmastiff]

I’m definitely prepared for the long journey I need to find something that will let me see the image properly after stacking and processing. There are a few but just want to make sure I getting the right one that I can work with and understand?

[The Admiral]

40 minutes ago, Bullmastiff said:

just want to make sure I getting the right one that I can work with and understand?

That I'm afraid is always the problem. I find that too. The difficulty you have is getting over that hump that without some initial knowledge, it's knowing what you are looking for. There is a broad range of applications ranging from free, quite cheap, quite expensive, and very expensive. Start with what you already have or can be had for nothing. Then, when you've gained a bit of experience, you can move on to something you'll find more in keeping with the way you work. Astro imaging is essentially about photography, and some primarily photo processing software can be put to astro use. GIMP and Photoshop fall into that category, as does Affinity Photo, which has some astro processing elements built in. You can get Plug-ins for the both affinity and Photoshop (? also GIMP) designed expressly for astro imagers. Star Tools is a dedicated astro imaging program, and isn't too expensive, but has a different and perhaps oblique user interface. SIRIL is also dedicated to astro imaging, and is free, but does need some experience I feel.

Choose a piece of software you think you'll get on with, look at all the YouTube guides you can, and just jump in and see what you can do. Never mind if it doesn't seem to work well, just keep practising. That's how we all started.

Ian

Edited August 22, 2023 by The Admiral

[Bullmastiff]

Just another question I believe images need stretching debayer and curves is there a software that does this all or do I need to have more than one,

basically is there a software that does it all?

[AstroMuni]

5 minutes ago, Bullmastiff said:

basically is there a software that does it all?

Take a look at a free tool, Siril. https://siril.org/ or Pixinsight (not free)

You can supplement this with products like Gimp, Photoshop, Affinity etc.

Edited August 23, 2023 by AstroMuni

[bomberbaz]

1 hour ago, Bullmastiff said:

basically is there a software that does it all?

I use Siril to do the main work, there is a process which is largely automated and does 3/4 of the work. I then use gimp to finish things off. My siril process is below if you want to try it:

1.       In Siril apply Colour calibration.

A From the top, select Image Processing > Color Calibration > Photometric Color Calibration.

In the window which appears, select the "Image Parameters" box, type in OBJECT DESIGNATION and click Find.

Some options should appear underneath after clicking Find.  Select Simbad OBJECT NAME (or NED OBJECT DESIGNATION if you don't get that option).  Then click OK.

Wait for it to complete and click close.  The bright green RGB picture should disappear and be replaced with something looking better but suffering from gradient.  The Crescent will be in the centre against a greenish/black night sky and framed by reddish clouds.

 

B Select the Blue Red or Green channel but not the RGB channel.

The Siril background tool dither option is there to dither the background samplers, leave this unchecked.

On the topic of the background tool, make sure you have cropped the incomplete edges, dont place too many samplers and that none of the samplers are on stars or nebulosity. Put the preview mode to Histogram and negative to get the best view on faint stuff. Dont trust the automatic sampler placement!

Select Image Processing > Background Extraction.

Use these settings in the window which appears:  Degree order 4; Samples per line 20; Tolerance 1.00; leave Add Dither unchecked.  Click Generate.

A load of small green boxes will appear.  Right click on whichever green boxes touch or are very near to the Crescent nebula to make them disappear.  (You can't get rid of boxes if in the RGB channel, hence changing to one of the others).  I got rid of 4 boxes.  You don't want them touching your target as that'll make the program think it's part of the gradient.  Click Apply then Close when it's finished.

[Jules Tohpipi]

On 14/10/2021 at 01:18, Icesheet said:

So to the product itself. Let me preface this by saying I’m no technical expert. You’ve probably guessed that already! Where I can I’ll link to info from people who seem to know more than me. Also, some images used here have been taken directly from ZWO’s website for reference.

 

First Impressions
My first impressions of the ASIAir Plus are similar to that of the Pro version. It’s a well built and thought out product. The outer shell is composed of CNC machined aluminium which has been anodised and sports the classic ZWO red. It’s light, compact and has a multitude of mounting options and has ample data ports.  It looks and feels a quality product. 

 

Plus vs. Pro
Aside from negligible differences in size the main changes are that the Plus model uses eMMC and a dedicated WiFi antenna to increase useable range. For those who don’t know (and I didn’t), eMMC is an onboard storage chip that allows faster I/O giving much faster read/write times for downloading and transferring data. Given image files we are downloading are getting bigger and bigger this seems a wise move. For my part I didn’t notice any significant increase in download times but that is just subjective and I used a new camera which has larger files than usual. I found a nice review online that’s suggests that the onboard eMMC does indeed significantly improve read/ write times compared to a standard microSD (https://joeytroy.com/asiair-pro-vs-asiair-plus/ ). The eMMC now also stores the OS so no need worry about backing up your OS. It also frees up the microSD slot purely for storage and there’s now also USB C port for data transfer directly to your PC. 
 

Initial Setup

Setup is a breeze. Download the Android or IOS app, plug your devices in, turn the unit on and connect. No worrying about searching for new ASCOM compliant drivers etc. It just works. You will be prompted to input some information e.g imaging camera and guide camera focal length but nothing too taxing. I use it on my phone and it also seems to use the phone’s GPS to determine my location. The user interface is intuitive and easy to navigate and is even comfortable to use on a phone which is particularly useful if you will be mobile. One downside is if you want to connect via PC as there is no native Windows or Mac software. You can use an Android emulator for PC but the experience is not quite as good as the native app on a Pad or phone in my opinion.

 

The following is just a summary of my first light with the Plus. I hope to cover specific aspects of the device in more detail as I use it more and I’m happy to answer any specific questions anyone might has as best I can. This was also first light with a new ASI2600MC, OAG and EAF autofocuser. In the past this would have spelled disaster for me. I was expecting issues so I was pleasantly surprised when I ended the night with 3hrs worth of data. It wasn’t all plain sailing but none of that was to do with the Plus.

 

Polar Alignment 

I mentioned before that Polar alignment is not a favourite of mine. I have done it manually with a polar scope, I’ve used PoleMaster, iPolar and the ASIAIR routine. The ASIAir routine is my go to. It’s not only more convenient given it’s built into the software but it’s also the easiest to use. It first takes an image and plate solves your location. It then rotates the mount in RA, takes another image and displays how far away you are from the pole in hours and minutes and using a simple target display with concentric rings to show which direction you need to move. From here you use your Alt/ Azi bolts to refine your alignment refreshing the image after each adjustment until you have an alignment you’re happy with. Generally I’m polar aligned within minutes these days. 
 

 

Target Selection

Next you’re ready to image! If you’re like me and haven’t planned ahead with an imaging target, the software has a pretty nice search functionality which includes a ‘tonight’s best’ based on your location. For first light I decided to slew to a classic and familiar target in M31. Click the button and off the mount goes. The plate solving functionality in my experience has been spot on and generally needs no more than a few secs and a couple plate solves. I’ve never not had the target in the centre of my FOV. It was no different with M31 here. You can also manually input your own RA and DEC coordinates here to slew to a predefined location if you wish. Surprisingly,the search function does not work with named targets e.g you have to search M31 not Andromeda. I have no idea why and also can’t see why this wouldn’t be anything other than a quick fix. 
 

 

 

Focusing
Next it was time to focus. In the past this has always been a source of frustration and cold fingers for me! The ASIAir has a focusing aid for manual focusing which I have found very helpful but it still involves a lot of trial and error and I’ve never been completely satisfied. It was for this reason I made the plunge for the EAF. I honestly didn’t have high expectations given this was the first run. The EAF section in the software gives you the option to input any backlash you may have and the focusing step size. I had no clue what to put in here so I just left the defaults and hit start and let the software do it’s thing. It started to construct a V curve based on the EAF position and calculated star size (fwhm). I could see that I clearly had some backlash as the motor was working but the focuser did not move at certain points. Despite this the software was able to create a satisfactory curve and seemingly find the best focus. I have no idea if it was the very best focus but star sizes were ~1.7 fwhm and that’s up there with the best I normally see. Of course this will vary based on your set up and seeing conditions. Clearly, I have to refine things with regards to backlash and step size but considering I just hit the button (and hoped) I was delighted with the outcome. I can only assume the software must be compensating somehow. 

 

Guiding

If there’s anything I’ve felt was a weak point with the ASIAir it was with the guiding. It has always worked and was always satisfactory but it wasn’t always straight forward. I know many say this is because the stripped down version of PHD2 ZWO employ doesn’t offer enough control. I have a slightly different take on that. I actually think we should have less control! For instance I never know what value I should use for the Calibration step or the max RA and Dec duration. These determine the steps taken during calibration and again I never know what the optimal amount of steps it should take W-E and N-S. This has led to some frustration and multiple attempts at calibration and guiding before I finally settle on something. I have also had issues with guiding failing after a meridian flip. It didn’t happen every session but it happened often enough that it became a frustration. I would much rather ZWO introduced something along the lines of PHD2’s guiding assistant and use the suggested settings from that as initial default inputs for guiding. I’m not saying there’s not a place for advanced controls somewhere but ASIAir’s selling point is the simplicity and I think they could perhaps improve here. Having said that this was my first outing with multistar guiding and wow! Guiding was on average from 0.5-0.6”RMS error and at times it was even as low as 0.35”. Typically I’m in the 0.7-0.8” range. 

 

 

Autorun sequence

The Autorun function is pretty straight forward. You decide how many subframes and how long each subframe should be. You have the option of picking filters if you’re shooting mono and you can set up an autorun for calibration frames too. I know it can be used to image multiple targets in one night too but I haven’t tried that. I set mine up for 60x180s images and let it run. 

 

WiFi Range

One of the main reasons I ended up buying the Plus was for the extended WiFi. The range on the Pro was disappointing to say the least. When imaging I am sitting less than 3m away in the living room and I can’t get a signal either directly to the Pro or via my home network. My only work around was taking a satellite router outside and using that to connect to my home network. However, I wasn’t keen leaving that out all night and just as I was going going to bite the bullet and but then WiFi extender the Plus was announced. I can happily report that with the Plus I get a stable connection throughout my whole house now. Max distance from unit is probably ~5m. I briefly tested it outside and on 2.4Ghz I was still connected >10m away. So undoubtedly a big improvement. 

 

I’ll come back again later with a conclusion and some final thoughts but the ASIAir Plus done what I bought it to do. Collected the data I wanted with minimum fuss. Overall, I think the Plus is more revolution than evolution but that’s no bad thing in IMO. It’s shows ZWO are listening and are willing to make these incremental improvements the community are craving. Here’s the final image of M31. This is 60x180sec with the ASI2600MC on an Esprit100ED. I’m delighted with it, it’s not perfect and a critical eye would certainly have some comments but that’s a different discussion. 
 

 

In the meantime if you want a more thorough go through of the device I highly recommend Cuiv the Lazy Geek on YouTube. I’ve always thought he gives a balanced and honest opinion on the products he reviews and his ones on the ASIAir Plus are no different.
 

 

 

 

 

That really is an amazing write up on the product. Very clearly written. You’ve totally sold me on getting one.

Have been considering it for a while - and indeed I will continue to wrestle with the laptop and ASCOM and ASTAP, etc for a while - just simply because it gives me a better understanding how everything works under the bonnet before going more automated. 
 

Just out of interest, for quick and short sessions with minimal set-up, is the ASIAir suitable for EAA (specifically live stacking on motorised alt-az mounts while still plate solving). 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Jules Tohpipi

[Bullmastiff]

4 hours ago, bomberbaz said:

I use Siril to do the main work, there is a process which is largely automated and does 3/4 of the work. I then use gimp to finish things off. My siril process is below if you want to try it:

1.       In Siril apply Colour calibration.

A From the top, select Image Processing > Color Calibration > Photometric Color Calibration.

In the window which appears, select the "Image Parameters" box, type in OBJECT DESIGNATION and click Find.

Some options should appear underneath after clicking Find.  Select Simbad OBJECT NAME (or NED OBJECT DESIGNATION if you don't get that option).  Then click OK.

Wait for it to complete and click close.  The bright green RGB picture should disappear and be replaced with something looking better but suffering from gradient.  The Crescent will be in the centre against a greenish/black night sky and framed by reddish clouds.

 

B Select the Blue Red or Green channel but not the RGB channel.

The Siril background tool dither option is there to dither the background samplers, leave this unchecked.

On the topic of the background tool, make sure you have cropped the incomplete edges, dont place too many samplers and that none of the samplers are on stars or nebulosity. Put the preview mode to Histogram and negative to get the best view on faint stuff. Dont trust the automatic sampler placement!

Select Image Processing > Background Extraction.

Use these settings in the window which appears:  Degree order 4; Samples per line 20; Tolerance 1.00; leave Add Dither unchecked.  Click Generate.

A load of small green boxes will appear.  Right click on whichever green boxes touch or are very near to the Crescent nebula to make them disappear.  (You can't get rid of boxes if in the RGB channel, hence changing to one of the others).  I got rid of 4 boxes.  You don't want them touching your target as that'll make the program think it's part of the gradient.  Click Apply then Close when it's finished.

Thank you Bombarbaz I will look at your advise it’s really frustrating that I can’t get my head round all this stacking