GEM45 auto guiding with Asiair

[Newforestgimp]

8 hours ago, wimvb said:

The mechanical construction of altitude and azimuth adjustments on most mounts don't allow for better than a few arc minutes in polar misalignment. Whenever I try to really zero in on PA, I notice that I adjust it to different positions without really improving. Two bolts pushing against a metal block are just not that accurate.

In my experience (with a sw AZ-EQ6 mount), belt tension and backlash adjustments are more important for smooth guiding than accurate polar alignment.

Btw, those low numbers for guide rate and aggression make sense for a smooth running mount. A "rougher" mount needs more force to get it moving. And a smooth mount will keep on moving (overshoots) if it gets too much force.

Hi & thanks.

yes I’m no longer concerned it’s something be worried about on the mount, it was a shock to see a wildly bouncing graph out of the box. The only thing that seems to be apparent on the graph now is periodic error which I’ve read can’t be corrected while using AAP guiding. All part of the getting to know your mount process I guess.

When our new puppy 🐶 no longer has a craving for electrical cables I may well revert back to a fully cabled laptop set up with PHD2 & APT. But for now wireless is what I need 🙂

[ollypenrice]

On 02/10/2021 at 21:52, alacant said:

It will help guide DEC without it having to reverse direction.

Especially if you disable the unused guide direction and guide in Dec only in the one direction imposed by the polar misalignment. This technique has worked for me with a difficult mount prone to Dec backlash. You have to reverse the direction after the flip and find which direction it is by trial end error, but both are easy to do. It is, in effect, the Dec equivalent of running east-side heavy in RA.

 

Round stars: these are often used as the arbiter of good guiding but they shouldn't be. They tell you one of two things, either that your guiding is good or that it is equally bad on both axes. In the latter case, which can happen, you'll suffer a loss of resolution and signal to noise ratio. Round stars are not all they're cracked up to be.

Olly

 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by ollypenrice
typo

[The Admiral]

On 30/09/2021 at 06:44, Newforestgimp said:

Morning All

Im pulling my hair out (what’s left of it) with auto guiding an Ioptron GEM45 with ASIAIR Pro.

when I leave the very limited settings available as std on the AAP guiding,

0.5x guide rate, 2000ms, AGGR RA 70%, AGGR DEC 100%

performance is shocking !!! BIG sharp spikes above and below the 0 line for both axis. Anyone else had this issue and overcome ?

The only way I could get reasonable guiding was to back the aggr WAY off in both axis !! This seems at odds with my other mount I was using that was a tuned eqm-35 pro that was impeccable on the std settings at around 0.5arcs RMS.

Suggestions pleeeaase…

Off topic, how have you found connecting the AAP to a GEM45? There seems to be a lot of discussion on the ZWO forum about connection problems, but it would seem that this is with the later mounts that have only one USB socket that serves for both the mount and for iPolar. Mine has two sockets, one for each. I have a new AAPlus arriving tomorrow, and I'd like to be prepared .

Ian

[michael8554]

On 30/09/2021 at 06:44, Newforestgimp said:

The only way I could get reasonable guiding was to back the aggr WAY off in both axis !! This seems at odds with my other mount I was using 

If that works, who cares if it's different to your other mount ?

Michael

[Newforestgimp]

2 hours ago, The Admiral said:

Off topic, how have you found connecting the AAP to a GEM45? There seems to be a lot of discussion on the ZWO forum about connection problems, but it would seem that this is with the later mounts that have only one USB socket that serves for both the mount and for iPolar. Mine has two sockets, one for each. I have a new AAPlus arriving tomorrow, and I'd like to be prepared .

Ian

Hi Ian,

yeah it seems a common problem that connection from AAP to GEM 45 needs to go via a USB HUB, it worked instantly when this was done. The usb hub could also be that which is on back of ZWO ASI Cameras 👍

[Newforestgimp]

1 hour ago, michael8554 said:

If that works, who cares if it's different to your other mount ?

Michael

It doesn’t, with hindsight. Not something I’m blessed with.

[Ouroboros]

On 25/10/2021 at 16:26, The Admiral said:

Off topic, how have you found connecting the AAP to a GEM45? There seems to be a lot of discussion on the ZWO forum about connection problems, but it would seem that this is with the later mounts that have only one USB socket that serves for both the mount and for iPolar. Mine has two sockets, one for each. I have a new AAPlus arriving tomorrow, and I'd like to be prepared .

Ian

I’m somewhat concerned to read this having just bought a new GEM45 and ASIair Plus. Are you saying this combination is a lemon?

[The Admiral]

1 hour ago, Ouroboros said:

I’m somewhat concerned to read this having just bought a new GEM45 and ASIair Plus. Are you saying this combination is a lemon?

I don't believe so . I'm no expert and not fully conversant with why the issue occurs, but I gather it is easily solved. I've just received my ASIAir plus and it worked without any issue. Mine is one of the earlier GEM45's, bought in March 2020, and it has 2 USB's, one for connecting to the iPolar and another for connecting to the mount itself (which is what the ASIAir connects via). There is also a USB socket which connects only to a USB socket on the saddle head via a feed-through. I believe with later models all this was rationalized, so there are now fewer USB sockets. It is/was this version that was causing the trouble. The advice, then (still?), was to connect via a USB hub rather than direct to the mount. This was what Newforrestgimp was referring to a couple of posts ago. Having said all that, when I was connecting to my mount, I noted that in the mount drop-down box, there were two entries for the GEM45, one referring to old and the other to later firmware (I think, can't quite remember). I initially chose the earlier one, as my mount is older, but it didn't work. It did with the later one though. I'm not sure whether the two entries are as a result of the issue being addressed by ZWO, or whether the problem with direct connection persists. But, I gather, it is a readily solvable issue, albeit irritating.

Ian

Ian

[Ouroboros]

46 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

I don't believe so . I'm no expert and not fully conversant with why the issue occurs, but I gather it is easily solved. I've just received my ASIAir plus and it worked without any issue. Mine is one of the earlier GEM45's, bought in March 2020, and it has 2 USB's, one for connecting to the iPolar and another for connecting to the mount itself (which is what the ASIAir connects via). There is also a USB socket which connects only to a USB socket on the saddle head via a feed-through. I believe with later models all this was rationalized, so there are now fewer USB sockets. It is/was this version that was causing the trouble. The advice, then (still?), was to connect via a USB hub rather than direct to the mount. This was what Newforrestgimp was referring to a couple of posts ago. Having said all that, when I was connecting to my mount, I noted that in the mount drop-down box, there were two entries for the GEM45, one referring to old and the other to later firmware (I think, can't quite remember). I initially chose the earlier one, as my mount is older, but it didn't work. It did with the later one though. I'm not sure whether the two entries are as a result of the issue being addressed by ZWO, or whether the problem with direct connection persists. But, I gather, it is a readily solvable issue, albeit irritating.

Ian

Ian

After a few false steps I have  now successfully connected my ASIair Plus to my new GEM45.  There is only one USB Type-B socket on the rear of the RA axis which I understand is used to connect a computer (or ASI) to the mount, the iPolar and to the two USB ports on the dove tail saddle. 

[The Admiral]

1 minute ago, Ouroboros said:

After a few false steps I have  now successfully connected my ASIair Plus to my new GEM45.  There is only one USB Type-B socket on the rear of the RA axis which I understand is used to connect a computer (or ASI) to the mount, the iPolar and to the two USB ports on the dove tail saddle. 
 

👍. I guess there is an internal hub now. As a matter of interest, which of the two GEM45 links worked?

Ian

 

 

 

[Ouroboros]

10 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

👍. I guess there is an internal hub now. As a matter of interest, which of the two GEM45 links worked?

Ian

The later one.  Actually although the ASI is connecting so that I have been able to control the mount from my iPad, I’m also seeing all sorts of peculiar faults mainly involving the mount becoming unresponsive to commands from the ASI.   These faults seem to develop after I send the mound back to the zero position. Very odd. 

[Newforestgimp]

Since using a usb between AAP and mount I haven’t had any issues, the ZWO recommendation is to use the usb hub on the back of their Astro cameras, I don’t currently own one sadly, so it’s the hub for the time being.

interested to know how you connected your AA+ directly to the mount ?

[Ouroboros]

54 minutes ago, Newforestgimp said:

Since using a usb between AAP and mount I haven’t had any issues, the ZWO recommendation is to use the usb hub on the back of their Astro cameras, I don’t currently own one sadly, so it’s the hub for the time being.

interested to know how you connected your AA+ directly to the mount ?

Well ….. at the moment I’m completely confused. Yes, I can connect my ASIair Plus to my GEM45 using a USB cable plugged into a USB2 socket on the ASI and the type-B USB socket on the rear of the RA axis. Here’s a photo. It’s all a bit Heath Robinson at the moment. The ASI is at the bottom of the photo and grey cable connects from the ASI to the mount’s USB socket.  It’s all completely wacky though. It’s connecting but not controlling the mount properly. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Ouroboros

[Ouroboros]

2 hours ago, Newforestgimp said:

Since using a usb between AAP and mount I haven’t had any issues, the ZWO recommendation is to use the usb hub on the back of their Astro cameras, I don’t currently own one sadly, so it’s the hub for the time being.

interested to know how you connected your AA+ directly to the mount ?

Do you know what the addition of a USB hub between the ASI and the mount is doing exactly?  I assume that’s a powered USB hub? 

[Newforestgimp]

6 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

Do you know what the addition of a USB hub between the ASI and the mount is doing exactly?  I assume that’s a powered USB hub? 

I don’t understand the issue tbh, another guy on a different thread stripped his mount down and replaced the internal wiring.

my hub is powered, but as stated before if you have an ASI Astro camera with a hub this also works apparently.

it’s really annoying as I chose the GEN45 partly on its through wiring to help simplify spaghetti junction and now it’s worse.

[Ouroboros]

Same here. I have been happy with the performance of my ASIair Pro with my AZ-EQ6 but wanted a more portable mount.  The GEM45 + ASIair Plus combo looked like it ticked all the boxes. To put it mildly I’m annoyed and disappointed. 

[newbie alert]

On 02/10/2021 at 22:52, wimvb said:

The mechanical construction of altitude and azimuth adjustments on most mounts don't allow for better than a few arc minutes in polar misalignment. Whenever I try to really zero in on PA, I notice that I adjust it to different positions without really improving. Two bolts pushing against a metal block are just not that accurate.

In my experience (with a sw AZ-EQ6 mount), belt tension and backlash adjustments are more important for smooth guiding than accurate polar alignment.

Btw, those low numbers for guide rate and aggression make sense for a smooth running mount. A "rougher" mount needs more force to get it moving. And a smooth mount will keep on moving (overshoots) if it gets too much force.

Makes no difference what the mount is.. if you run the guide assistant it will measure what your mount does and apply the relevant guide pulse(m/s) to bring the star back to the trendline..

Unless you haven't run the guide assistant and trying to find your own settings, which could be a million and 1 combinations 

Each mount is different.. they're mass produced and not made to exact identical microns..or put together in the same way or even the same person

[Newforestgimp]

40 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Same here. I have been happy with the performance of my ASIair Pro with my AZ-EQ6 but wanted a more portable mount.  The GEM45 + ASIair Plus combo looked like it ticked all the boxes. To put it mildly I’m annoyed and disappointed. 

On a more positive note I’ve started experimenting and testing using the iStarfi wifi dongle, and so far it’s allowing me to control the mount with CDC/Stellarium/APT remotely but I can’t get control of cameras via that wifi link.

so for me I can see me removing the AAP altogether and going back to a laptop and a long usb cable to the pier mounted usb hub, unless I can come up with another cunning plan.

[The Admiral]

10 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

These faults seem to develop after I send the mound back to the zero position. Very odd. 

I did try sending the mount back to the home position but it started going off in a direction I wasn't expecting. I couldn't see how to stop it without powering off the mount. After that, it all seemed to be unresponsive. The solution which worked was to power off both the AAP and the mount, and start afresh. I do not see a need to send the mount to home anyway, so shalln't do that again. I'm not even sure I know where 'home' is!

Of course, the ultimate test will be to try things out under clear skies!

Ian

Edited October 28, 2021 by The Admiral

[Newforestgimp]

2 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

I did try sending the mount back to the home position but it started going off in a direction I wasn't expecting. I couldn't see how to stop it without powering off the mount. After that, it all seemed to be unresponsive. The solution which worked was to power off both the AAP and the mount, and start afresh. I do not see a need to send the mount to home anyway, so shalln't do that again. I'm not even sure I know where 'home' is!

Ian

I might well be wrong but I seem to remember using the hand controller and usb dongle on first set up & manually placing the mount in the standard north facing, counter weights down position and setting that as home position via the handset. Since that point I’ve not connected a handset and whenever I ‘Park’ the scope it returns to that std position no problem. Might be worth a try.

[The Admiral]

5 minutes ago, Newforestgimp said:

I might well be wrong but I seem to remember using the hand controller and usb dongle on first set up & manually placing the mount in the standard north facing, counter weights down position and setting that as home position via the handset. Since that point I’ve not connected a handset and whenever I ‘Park’ the scope it returns to that std position no problem. Might be worth a try.

Thanks. Mind you, I thought I had the last time I used it?

Ian

[Ouroboros]

10 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

I did try sending the mount back to the home position but it started going off in a direction I wasn't expecting. I couldn't see how to stop it without powering off the mount. After that, it all seemed to be unresponsive. The solution which worked was to power off both the AAP and the mount, and start afresh. I do not see a need to send the mount to home anyway, so shalln't do that again. I'm not even sure I know where 'home' is!

Ian

I suppose I  confused  home position with the park position - in my case weights down, scope pointing at the pole. I regularly send my AZ-AQ6 there from my ASIair plus in order to start polar alignment or prior to ending a session. This seems to be what iOptron call the zero position. 

Anyway, I now think the mount/ASI combo not working after sending the mount home was coincidental.  Control of the mount is erratic or unresponsive to commands irrespective of what I tell the ASI to do. 

[Newforestgimp]

18 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

I suppose I  confused  home position with the park position - in my case weights down, scope pointing at the pole. I regularly send my AZ-AQ6 there from my ASIair plus in order to start polar alignment or prior to ending a session. This seems to be what iOptron call the zero position. 

Anyway, I now think the mount/ASI combo not working after sending the mount home was coincidental.  Control of the mount is erratic or unresponsive to commands irrespective of what I tell the ASI to do. 

I wonder if your issue is actually the same as reported by myself and others, you’ve just had an added confusion that AAP does connect initially but that connection isn’t sufficient to maintain reliable control. Try a hub and see if that cures the random mount behaviour 😉

[The Admiral]

I'm sure that folk will have read the CN thread on this, but for the record, https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/778610-new-ioptron-gem45-and-asiair-issue/

Several postulations have been made, ranging from inadequate cabling within the mount to AAP supply voltage. But use of a hub does seem to allow the mount to talk to the AAP, either that on the camera or a separate one. Presumably by providing some extra 'oomph' to the signal, though apparently an unpowered hub is supposed to work. One person suggested using a USB3 port to link to the mount rather than USB2.

Also, check out the discussion on the ZWO forum

https://bbs.astronomy-imaging-camera.com/d/11852-problems-connecting-asiair-pro-and-ioptron-gem45-2021-version

By the way, I use separate power supplies for the mount and AAP. I don't power the mount through the AAP. For what it's worth.

Ian

Edited October 28, 2021 by The Admiral

[Ouroboros]

@The Admiral Thanks. Yes, I read the CN thread yesterday. If I’d read that last week I would not have placed my order for this mount. 😐

Just for the bench test I powered the AAP from the mount. I will try it powered separately and also with a USB hub. Unfortunately I don’t have the ZWO camera I use here at the moment so can’t try that. 

I’m wondering whether anyone has alerted suppliers/manufacturers to this issue yet? @FLO